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It's pointless to compare GW with RC racing and say it's cheap in comparison.

Every hobby in the world is dirt cheap compared to J class yacht racing.

nkelsch wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:^ Only thing is, with GW's games, I can turn up with my $25 car and still play.

My Mantic dwarf army cost me £0.25/model, about 2000 points of warhammer for £60 /$100.

Competitive army build, too.

Same thing goes for my Perry Miniatures Empire. I want to own a 10k-20k+ point army, and their plastics allow me to do that for less than a quarter of the cost of GW.

I get a bigger, more impressive collection than the GW buyer.. who gets... well, the ability to use their army in GW stores and tournaments. That is the only advantage.

Salespitch for mantic aside... Even Mantic prices make Wargaming anything but an 'everyman' hobby. There is still terrain to buy and the overwall cost of entry is still amazingly high compared to loads of other hobbies which can be cheaply bought and played anywhere. You still need terrain and paint which means even with cheap terrain and paint it is expensive compared to other stuff.

Even wargamers on the cheap are still barley entering the hobby and are still participating in a very expensive hobby. And as a modeling and painting hobby game removed, many models are expensive on their own.

The idea that even mantic makes wargaming an everyman hobby is absurd as even an entry level mantic army entering wargaming is still expensive for the evryman, and doesn't change the fact that people are still mostly buying space marines which mantic models simply don't help with as people want their plastic crack which still makes this a GW centric discussion as much as someone wants to inject mantic into it.

I don't think he was arguing that Mantic will make it an everyman hobby, and as you say there are far cheaper ways of spending your time.

But, what is undeniable is that relatively speaking their ranges are much more affordable than GW (for the particular niche of massed infantry on the tabletop-style gaming). I know of several people who have started padding out their WFB armies with Mantic rank and file models, the prices GW charge for just 10 infantry are utterly insane, especially now the game favours large blocks of infantry.

I'm collecting a WFB Orc army using Mantic models. I guess I'm not enough of a fan to be willing to pay the money that GW charge if theirs was the only option, and therefore would not be playing at all. It's a massive saving, and I can't be the only one in this situation where the price of entry would previously have acted as a barrier.

I can't see how you could make the argument that Mantic are doing anything other than making the game (both theirs and WFB) more accessible?

Pacific wrote:
I'm collecting a WFB Orc army using Mantic models. I guess I'm not enough of a fan to be willing to pay the money that GW charge if theirs was the only option, and therefore would not be playing at all. It's a massive saving, and I can't be the only one in this situation where the price of entry would previously have acted as a barrier.

I can't see how you could make the argument that Mantic are doing anything other than making the game (both theirs and WFB) more accessible?

Because even entering wargaming at the cheapest of entry level through alternative manufacturers or knockoffs, the cost of entry and cost of upkeep makes the hobby still not accessible to the 'public market' which I assume the poster really meant 'the poor' because he compared it to the middle class. If you can afford 100-200$ to piss away on models *AND* can afford the downtime to enjoy gaming with others, there is a good chance you are not 'poor' as people really scraping to get by either have to work multiple jobs or simply can't afford to spend money on hobbies like this. And having cheap dwarves doesn't help that player who wishes to play space wolves... No one plays mantic's games and Mantic only gives these people who are crying for accessibility limited access to a small number of armies, and often at the cost of ugly models as a large number of people dislike the looks of mantic models.

Just because you can 'fill out' an army to save some money doesn't mean anything and doesn't make the entire hobby accessible which is what being discussed. GW is not pricing itself out of the market either as lots of others cost the same, even Mantic's metal are approaching GW's prices. Hobbies are expensive, others are more expensive. *MOST* hobbies are inaccessible to the working poor, that doesn't mean the product has been priced out of the market simply because some people can't afford it. Models cost different amounts. Many 3rd party model parts cost the same or more than GW because small model runs simply cost more. And people buy them because there is a market for them.

Why does the discussion have to be about making the hobby accessible to the everyman? What's wrong with going 'budget' to save money as an end in itself? Why spend extra money on a product you're not willing to value that highly? At the end of the day we don't all want to spend 100% of our money on Wargames, or maybe even spend it at all.

Henners91 wrote:Why does the discussion have to be about making the hobby accessible to the everyman? What's wrong with going 'budget' to save money as an end in itself? Why spend extra money on a product you're not willing to value that highly? At the end of the day we don't all want to spend 100% of our money on Wargames, or maybe even spend it at all.

If you are spending 100% of your money on wargames, you might have other issues you need to have addressed.

Luxury hobbies cost money. GW's prices are at the upper end of the models on the market, but being a product based upon asthetics and features means you can pay all ends of the spectrum based upon you want. This is not like you are buying items that are identacle but one costs more because one is GW. Even 3rd party models cost more because of production but because people explicitly want models which look a specific way.

If the cost of GW or wargaming in general is breaking your bank, then find a cheaper hobby, Play smaller games, or wait longer to save up more money. If you are not going to value the model highly then don't buy it and play with shoeboxes and poker chips.

nkelsch wrote:

Just because you can 'fill out' an army to save some money doesn't mean anything and doesn't make the entire hobby accessible which is what being discussed.

Of course it does! It means I can buy an entire army for less than £100. A lot of people might have (or be willing) to spend that amount of money, but not £200-£300 which is the bare minimum you are looking at to get a standard GW force onto the table.
Quite a few new players out our club (who have not played wargames before) are generally going for the smaller, skirmish style games that cost less than £100 (SAGA, Malifaux etc.)

There are shades of grey in terms of what people are prepared to pay, and the higher you push up those prices the more people you are going to exclude. The only good thing is that, at least here in the UK, the FLGS is starting to make a bit of a comeback. This, combined with an increased range of games to play (most of which are considerably cheaper than GW) means that at least new players might still come into the wargaming hobby, rather than having a look around a GW store, seeing the costs involved, and then walking away from the entire prospect for ever.

Spectral Dragon wrote:First, you mentioned that 100 Euros is not a lot of money. How much do you make? Because to your average consumer that's a fair chunk of a paycheck your talking about there.

I have in the past bought entire armies for 100 US dollars. I am talking 1500-2000 pt armies, and I thought I was getting a bargain, but when you are saying you are willing to buy a single model for 100 euros I have to stop you for a sec. How many models do you buy for 100 euros each month?

I tend to have a long planning phase and to buy my new projects all in one go. The 100 euro/month is just to provide a basis. Still, using SM as an example, and assuming the standard discount, you can get two tac squads and two rhinos. That's two units/month. Not bad, IMHO ofcourse.

Spectral Dragon wrote:
Secondly, you don't understand industry at all if you think the book industry and the model industry work the same. I've seen the book industry first hand, and yes the cost of resale is calculated into the initial cost. The reason for this is because the book industry knows it's going to get (a small amount) of money from that resale, yet lose the big bucks of selling for new. GW will not get money from a resale, they will lose it. Big difference.

Also, with the book industry you have new versions of a book coming out every year, making the old versions obsolete. GW explicitly states that old models may be used in their games.

I don't think that you understand my point. I never said the book industry and the model industry work the same. I said that there is a similar process in the setting of retail prices in both industries. In fact, you can map out a general pricing trend for all companies which sell products with a secondary market (that meets certain conditions). The book industry is one example of many. GW has been around for a long time and are surely on top of every way of maximizing profits.

Captain Toad wrote:Excellent post Spectral.
I don't know Barksdale well but he seems like he is more interested in initiating arguments for the sake of arguing rather than debating the points and assessing what other contributors write before replying.
There is no question that he has got it completely wrong in this case.
GW will get no money at all from a resale of their product.
Any money from a resale via eBay or Amazon or a car boot sale is money lost from their products.
There is a reason GW have tried hard to have power ofver the sale of their products on ebay, and there is a reason that GW bring ouyt new races and one offs like Space Hulk and Dreadfleet, because there is no recent earlier edition to compete with it on the 2nd hand market.
Same reason they destroy anything that is overstock so it cannot resurface on the 2nd hand market.
The 2nd hand market hurts new miniature sales.

As for GW's prices... well, why do you think so many people are using online discounters to buy GW products?
Why are so many people turning to eBay and Amazon?
GW are pricing themselves out of the regular market and steadily heading into becoming a middle class game for those families who can afford it.

Look guys, I've given you a starting point to the literature on this topic. If you are interested in learning a little more about it, I do encourage you lot to start reading. If you want to continue to draw conclusions based on your own opinions thats fine too.

My only point, that kind of got lost trying to argue a 60 year old concensus in the research, is that there are many factors that go into the setting of a retail price. More specifically, capturing some surplus from a secondary market, if one exists, is definately one of them.

If you of know any literature that provides evidence telling a different story, I'd love to read it. Please post or pm me the details.

HI all.
I thought it was generaly agreed GW plc simply sets its RRP as high as it thinks it can get away with.
Assuming that thier target demoghraphic...

A)Is isolated from the competition,
B)Will have a short burst of enthusiastic buying followed by a sharp exit.
C)Will have acess to a fairly large disposable income over this short period of buying time.

Other companies have to compete in the 'open market.' So have to offer better value for money, or they dont survive.
This doesnt just equate to price per minature, but value for money for the overall experiance.