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Seriously? No-one has posted this yet?

I'm kind of surprised Mallissa hasn't jumped into this thread. Space Marine. Threads detailing how not-invincible Space Marines are are her natural habitat.

Spetulhu wrote:"Close combat" isn't just hand-to-hand and melee weapons, it also incorporates point-blank shots and any dirty trick you can come up with.

I don't know why people would think otherwise. It's not like every race in 40k has some sort of gentleman's agreement where within 5m they're required to sling their weapons and box under London Prize Ring rules.

With the assistance of the Alpha Legion

Banzaimash wrote: how do enemies like Guardsmen or Tau fight them in close combat?

Roll sixes. Hope your opponent rolls ones. VICTORY!

Well usually it's by shooting them, but sometimes they also stab them.

Why do people still have the delusion that Marines are gods amongst men? Marines are mortals. They're no tougher than the average Ork boy, and sure their power armor is effective but it doesn't stop everything.

They're no tougher than the average Ork boy, and sure their power armor is effective but it doesn't stop everything.

The average Ork being tough as hell from the start is a good reason why we think they are god amongst men. Take a human the size of a small ork, bulging with muscles, like the Rock or I don't know who, and shoot him once with even a small caliber, and he'll likely go down from the shock. I doubt an Ork would feel a 9mm...

Then add on the fact that they are quicker, smarter (usually... well, supposedly...), better equipped, better supplied logistically, better deployed, more autonomous...

AND then the fact that they never go anywhere without an armor decidedly over what is normally available to some of the most advanced races of the universe...

Then you should get why " do people still have the delusion that Marines are gods amongst men? "

Oh and as far as I'm concerned, the question of Eldar vs Marines... well, I would say that no Marines should go in combat with an Eldar without taking good care. Still, the Eldar will fold much faster comparatively to the Marine, so unless he is better equipped than the Astartes, or as received extensive special cqc training (which isn't uncommon), then the Marine will win. So the Marines that go chest-thumping and clamoring about how they can kill Eldars without a thought to it are likely Marines with a very short life expectancy, because with (random number) 80% of Eldars, that will be true, and with the other 20%, he won't know what hit him.

I'd reckon that the Eldar specialists of the Deathwatch, knowing more about the xenos than other, would be able to take an enormous toll on any Craftworld they decide to attack...

Kovnik Obama wrote:The average Ork being tough as hell from the start is a good reason why we think they are god amongst men. Take a human the size of a small ork

Hunched over, or standing up straightt?

Because Orks are easily the size of Space Marines if they stood up straight, but their natural position is hunched over.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Then add on the fact that they are quicker

Not really, unless you're saying "compared to an unaugmented or untrained human in power armor whom has no neural uplink to their armor", but that's a lot less impressive. Sisters for example with training reach or exceed the speed of a Space Marine in power armor, and assassins almost invariably exceed it, even the ones that aren't part of the Officio Assassinorum.

Kovnik Obama wrote:smarter (usually... well, supposedly...)

No, there's no evidence of them being smarter than the average well trained human. Indeed, given matters of pride, they can frequently behave less intelligently.

Kovnik Obama wrote:better equipped, better supplied logistically, better deployed, more autonomous...

All of this, however, is true, and this provides the main advantage of the Space Marines. The Imperial Guard is capable of dealing with Ork threats on a regular basis. The main advantage that Marines have over Orks is that Marines are better equipped on average and that Marines bother to aim.

Kovnik Obama wrote:AND then the fact that they never go anywhere without an armor decidedly over what is normally available to some of the most advanced races of the universe...

Normally, sure, but Ork power armor is arguably better, and there's more Orks in mega armor than there are marines.

Kovnik Obama wrote:I'd reckon that the Eldar specialists of the Deathwatch, knowing more about the xenos than other, would be able to take an enormous toll on any Craftworld they decide to attack...

I reckon that guard units used to dealing with power armored threats (such as those who have fought on Cadia) could take on a chapter and deal an enormous toll on any Marine fortress they decide to attack, too

Hunched over, or standing up straightt?

Because Orks are easily the size of Space Marines if they stood up straight, but their natural position is hunched over.

Closest available point of reference, so I guess a small Ork, even a juvenile one, hunched, against a very tall human body builder. Still, I think no one will argue the essence of the argument ; that very tall body builder is (very) vulnerable to small arms fire, while it would take a lucky shot to kill an Ork, or even really arm him. If naked, this is the point of comparison for Marines toughness, then that's pretty godlike, from our point of view.

Not really, unless you're saying "compared to an unaugmented or untrained human in power armor whom has no neural uplink to their armor", but that's a lot less impressive.

Quicker than Orks, yes.

Sisters for example with training reach or exceed the speed of a Space Marine in power armor, and assassins almost invariably exceed it, even the ones that aren't part of the Officio Assassinorum.

I didn't know about Sisters, but I guess that would make sense. And obviously, assassins, too. There is obviously 'faster' than Marines in the universe, even in the IoM, but its undeniable that isn't available to the masses.

No, there's no evidence of them being smarter than the average well trained human. Indeed, given matters of pride, they can frequently behave less intelligently.

Isn't there something about them having super-quick thought processes, or is that just something the Primarches had? I thought this was the basis for he Initiative boost.

All of this, however, is true, and this provides the main advantage of the Space Marines. The Imperial Guard is capable of dealing with Ork threats on a regular basis. The main advantage that Marines have over Orks is that Marines are better equipped on average and that Marines bother to aim.

Well, that's an undue reduction. The real main advantage the Astartes have over the Orks is that (normally), Astartes are smarter, and have a much better defined intent. On top of that, they have technical, training, logistics and strategic supremacy over the Orks (in the case of the Chapters that aren't completely blinded by their own egos). In a few situations, where one really bright Warboss or Mek arise, they might lose one or more of those aspects.

Normally, sure, but Ork power armor is arguably better, and there's more Orks in mega armor than there are marines.

Why better?

I reckon that guard units used to dealing with power armored threats (such as those who have fought on Cadia) could take on a chapter and deal an enormous toll on any Marine fortress they decide to attack, too

Well, sure, that's what a specialized unit would be, and I guess the Stormtroopers and Melta Vets of Cadia could be considered MEQ-hunters. But if that's the IG's idea of a specialized force, that's weak. That barely takes care of resolving one of the tactical superiorities of the Astartes (armor).

Kovnik Obama wrote:Quicker than Orks, yes.

Dunno, Orks can have really fast combat reactions. Better than humans, in many cases.

Kovnik Obama wrote:I didn't know about Sisters, but I guess that would make sense. And obviously, assassins, too. There is obviously 'faster' than Marines in the universe, even in the IoM, but its undeniable that isn't available to the masses.

Mostly because the masses aren't superbly trained soldiers, nevermind superbly trained soldiers with expensive power armor and neural uplinks.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Isn't there something about them having super-quick thought processes

Nope. It's hypno-indoctrination, which can be given to any human being, and indeed is often given to Inquisitorial agents and assassins, for example. There's actually rules for this in the FFG roleplayin games in fact. It is not unique to Marines.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Why better?

Provides better protection and better strength enhancement in exchange for inferior power supply, essentially. As a combat armor, it works very well. The Ork that is in it is a nob anyway, so it's not like he is anything less than a whirling dervish of green skinned death outside of the mega armor.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Well, sure, that's what a specialized unit would be, and I guess the Stormtroopers and Melta Vets of Cadia could be considered MEQ-hunters. But if that's the IG's idea of a specialized force, that's weak. That barely takes care of resolving one of the tactical superiorities of the Astartes (armor).

That's all that needs to be taken care of. The Guard is fully capable of finding Marines with its sensors and auspices,and any intelligence gathering equipment that the Marines have the Guard really has more of anyway. Sure there's people that argue that Marines are like batman and can predict every single thing that's about to happen, but there's no evidence of that.

Dissect this argument further please. I don't think I'm following either one of you close enough.

I'm just saying that Marines aren't as tough as they're made out ot be, nor are they really as fast or smart either. They are, physically, as tough as an Ork. The Imperial Guard can have a single guardsman hose down an Ork with a lasgun and they go down after being hit several times. Same with Marines out of power armor. Their power armor provides an extra layer of protection, but it is not an all-encompassing layer of indestructium. Thus why Marines take cover in firefights unless they believe they can charge in to melee fast enough taht they can take the enemy down quicker in melee than at range. Even then, they expect casualties (although marines, much like Orks, are much more likely to simply be incapacitated than they are to be killed).

I'm pretty sure I recall someone here on dakka saying a single marine could take on 300 orks or something like that.

And I heard on Dakka that a single squad of Marines could conquer the Earth.

And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.

As human as Space Marines are, they are still much more formidable than I think you're giving them credit for Melissia. Yes, they may be as tough as an Ork, but they also have the training, equipment, and dedication to be something much greater than that and have been around long enough in the lore to prove it.

Average Ork Boyz are tougher then Marines? In every piece of fluff, Astartes rip through huge numbers of Orks in melee combat. Hell even Guardsmen go toe-to-toe with them in melee. Orks are naturally tougher/stronger then humans, but the difference is probably similar between a human and a grizzly bear.

Nobz are an entirely different story however. I'd put them as tougher then an Astartes naturally.

BlaxicanX wrote:I'm kind of surprised Mallissa hasn't jumped into this thread. Space Marine. Threads detailing how not-invincible Space Marines are are her natural habitat.

Melissia wrote:Well usually it's by shooting them, but sometimes they also stab them.

Why do people still have the delusion that Marines are gods amongst men? Marines are mortals. They're no tougher than the average Ork boy, and sure their power armor is effective but it doesn't stop everything.

You like how I just kind of summoned her with my warp sorcery? Dat Tzeentch powah, son.

You don't strap demo charges to your own squad members, you strap them to the armour of the space marine. Surely the world of 40k has sticky glue (or just plain snot in case of Orks)?

I don't remember a Space Marine arm being cut apart by a chain sword in Path of the Warrior, but I do remember the Exarch soul remembering being killed a few times by Space Marines.

And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.

Can you hear this? That is the sound of Melissia's mind trying to find a sophism that would justify discounting Space Marine while continuing to draw from FFG

And Titus and the 2 meatshields weren't alone, they just didn't need to team up with the other UM present to wipe the floor with that Whaaagh. And let's note that if Very Difficult is the appropriate level of fluff comparison (as is in Halo), then what Titus did, he had (random number) about 1% chance of doing. But still, 1%, when your 3 against many millions... That's pretty godlike in my book.

I'm going to go with massed firepower. There'd be no point fixing a bayonet if you were charged by an astartes. Even if you managed to get a clean lunge on him, you'd break your knife, your gun or your shoulder. It'd be like trying to skewer a brick wall.
But running away while holding down the trigger...that might just work.

Space Marines are not as infallible as you think, in Gaunt's Ghosts it's shown that regular guardsmen can take down Space Marines quite easily with disciplined fire or if they keep a level head in close combat.

Most guardsmens bayonets are made out of solid Adamantium and many have super sharp edges like those on a chain sword.

sure without the proper strength guardsmen couldn't likely plunge it through a marines Armour (joints maybe) but they would not likely break unless under extreme stress

DemetriDominov wrote:And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.

Titus, two other Marines, a few other squads of Marines, including reinforcements from an entire other CHAPTER, and a large force of Imperial Guard, combined with naval assets and a Titan with its crew and a large number of emplaced guns..

You didn't pay much attention to that game did you?

Harriticus wrote:Average Ork Boyz are tougher then Marines?

Yes. Tougher, actually-- Orks can survive many things that would instantly kill a Marine. Decapitation, for example. Orks have multiple redundant organs and an insensitivity to pain and shock that easily rivals that of the Astartes.

Furthermore, Orks are effectively (with obscenely rare exceptions) immune to the corruption of chaos.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Can you hear this? That is the sound of Melissia's mind trying to find a sophism that would justify discounting Space Marine while continuing to draw from FFG

No, this is the sound of Melissia's eyes rolling because you FAILED to actually pay attention to the game. Eye grinding against tear-duct lubricated flesh is fairly quiet though, so I'm surprised you heard it.

Melissia wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.

Titus, two other Marines, a few other squads of Marines, including reinforcements from an entire other CHAPTER, and a large force of Imperial Guard, combined with naval assets and a Titan with its crew and a large number of emplaced guns..

You didn't pay much attention to that game did you?

Hmm sarcasm... lost upon the binary of the internet. But lets put it this way: The IG failed to stop the Orks.. like they always do. The Titan literally fired a single shot the whole game, the naval assets didn't do anything but crash, burn, die, and spew bloody orky bits everywhere. Finally, you know as well as I do a chapter is seldom deployed at full strength anywhere in the galaxy. (Bring back someone's comment about the GK's being unstoppable if the whole chapter was deployed someplace, it says the exact same thing about the Black Templars). At most the SM's that were deployed were around 100, a very generous number considering we probably saw 25-30 the entire game, including the Inquisitions arrival. So knowing that virtually the entire planet was a lost cause when the SM's arrived, I'd say they did fairly well with just 100* marines against millions of orks, including hundreds of Nobs and a Warboss.

DemetriDominov wrote:The IG failed to stop the Orks

You mean the Mechanicus did. The Guard arrived to reinforce the Mechanicus, and managed to land and secure a beachhead before their supply lines and reinforcements were cut off. After the reinforcements were restored, the Guard, not the Marines, did most of the work in freeing the world from the Orkoid scum, with the Space Marines merely assisting through destroying key assets and killing the warboss to make the Orks become less organized. Only the arrival of chaos marines slowed the Guard down, and that was only a brief fight. The Guard continued battling against Chaos, and after the victory against the sorcerer, it mopped up the Chaos and Ork forces.

DemetriDominov wrote:the naval assets didn't do anything but crash, burn, die, and spew bloody orky bits everywhere.

... and keep the Orks busy in Space, thus making it easier for everyone.

DemetriDominov wrote: Finally, you know as well as I do a chapter is seldom deployed at full strength anywhere in the galaxy.

I never said it was the whole chapter. Read my posts, don't listen to the voices in your head.

Melissia wrote:entire other CHAPTER,

Found it.

Which was stating that the marines were from an entirely different chapter.

I never claimed that Space Marine was an accurate representation of the lore. But it isn't as bad as you say it is.

SM are hard to kill, but there not impossible to kill.

Melissia wrote:Which was stating that the marines were from an entirely different chapter.

Entire and entirely are two very different words, even in the context you used it in. I get what you mean now, but still, 100 Marines (if that) plus a small contingency of gaurd.. who failed on top of the Mechanicus to hold the forge world against the (again) millions, of Orks. SM's not only defend against them, but are often the only force that drives them back.

Given that the game also has you being able to heal wounds by shooting people, armour that repairs itself totally in seconds if left unmolested and being wounded having no lasting effect i'd say it's a pretty poor reference for the toughness of Space Marines

Space Marines have been taken down with a single poisoned needle before in the fluff, too.

BL tends to uberify the marines a touch (bolter-porn and plot armour ahoy). Any fluffset that allows backflipping terminators or single marine squads taking out thousands of foes without reloading or resupply has at best questionable contact with the actual setting's fluff.

1000 bolt rounds would make one hell of a backpack. They aren't exactly small shells

Sm vary in the fluff from studly humans to demigods, with no actual consistent baseline. The Pro-marine faction will naturally scoop the most egregious of the godly version to support their claim, and the less marine-oriented will ignore those stories as the obvious fan--service they are.

In the codex fluff most Marines are badasses, but not godly.

In comicbook comparison Batman, rather than Superman..