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Not even that, Batman is much smarter and more tactically competent. Hrm, I'd say that they're like... Wildcat during his youth.

Ascalam wrote:Given that the game also has you being able to heal wounds by shooting people.

It's actually more like ripping them apart in melee and stomping their faces in with unbridled contempt, which isn't tough or true to character of the SM's at all.... hiding behind cover and whatnot.. but yeah, shooting them with auto repairing armor, that's close enough to the lore anyway, we'll go with that without an ounce of sarcasm.

I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from. What does it matter if they kill 100 enemies or a million? It's still vastly more than most humans could ever hope to achieve and killing them in close combat is extremely difficult unless you've got the talent, gift, or just plain brute strength to do it. If you're a lesser opponent, really your only chance is to get them by either range, ambushing, explosives, a special and very powerful weapon, a whole bunch of you, some luck, and/or all of the above. It's repeated a lot in the lore, in the BL novels, in the codex, in the rule book, in multiple forms of the game, in the RPG's, in the computer games, and finally in SM. They are the living embodiment of war, and to defeat them, you must find a weakness to exploit them on, just like any other enemy. The best one? Not to go to war against them in the first place if you can help it.

And you Melissia.. just hate SM's don't you.. rofl.

DemetriDominov wrote:I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from.

I don't get why you can't argue without using a strawman, myself.

But I'll go with this-- this is your argument by the way, not mine.

The idea is simple. Marines aren't humans, therefor they are not humanity's best warriors. That is the Sisters, whom are, unlike Marines, human. If you consider Marines to be human (I don't), then sure, they're humanity's best warriors, sure, but only through physical prowess. The average veteran guardsman is probably a better soldier, and a Sister is definitely a better holy warrior.

Melissia wrote:they're humanity's best warriors, sure, but only through physical prowess. The average veteran guardsman is probably a better soldier, and a Sister is definitely a better holy warrior.

This is true, but each is specifically suited to fill that role, veterans are supposed to be the experienced grizzly soldiers who have seen it all, and the sisters are supposed to be the fanatical crusaders, and of course marines are supposed to be the (slightly) super human warriors with a lifetime of skill and boosted strength at there disposal.

as far a effectiveness they all have their roles to fill

Melissia wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from.

I don't get why you can't argue without using a strawman, myself.

But I'll go with this-- this is your argument by the way, not mine.

The idea is simple. Marines aren't humans, therefor they are not humanity's best warriors. That is the Sisters, whom are, unlike Marines, human

Ah, I see where this is going now. No one has ever said you have to be human to be it's best warrior. The Emperor was by far it's greatest warrior, if not him then it was either Horus or Sanguinus. By the Emperor, humanity made the SM's as a weapon of war to protect humanity. They are agents of war, and as living beings are defined as warriors. Therefore, they are humanity's greatest warriors although not actually human. Humanities greatest warriors who are still actually human, are in fact the Sisters of Battle. But we are again arguing over the meaning of words, rather than the context and heart of what we're discussing. The SM's are not easy opponents and have been proven time and again to reflect their legendary status as the video game Space Marine has portrayed them, not as the table top has, or the movie Ultramarine's has, or even how overly inflated some BL authors have made them out to be. They have their unfortunate moments where they are slaughtered and beaten terribly by another foe, but overall, as a whole, the Adeptus Astartes and their darker brethren have always been considered the most powerful fighting force the galaxy has ever known.

Most powerful in terms of specialization and military tactics perhaps but Marines cannot hope to match the numbers or firepower of other factions in the galaxy

DemetriDominov wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Given that the game also has you being able to heal wounds by shooting people.

It's actually more like ripping them apart in melee and stomping their faces in with unbridled contempt, which isn't tough or true to character of the SM's at all.... hiding behind cover and whatnot.. but yeah, shooting them with auto repairing armor, that's close enough to the lore anyway, we'll go with that without an ounce of sarcasm.

I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from. What does it matter if they kill 100 enemies or a million? It's still vastly more than most humans could ever hope to achieve and killing them in close combat is extremely difficult unless you've got the talent, gift, or just plain brute strength to do it. If you're a lesser opponent, really your only chance is to get them by either range, ambushing, explosives, a special and very powerful weapon, a whole bunch of you, some luck, and/or all of the above. It's repeated a lot in the lore, in the BL novels, in the codex, in the rule book, in multiple forms of the game, in the RPG's, in the computer games, and finally in SM. They are the living embodiment of war, and to defeat them, you must find a weakness to exploit them on, just like any other enemy. The best one? Not to go to war against them in the first place if you can help it.

And you Melissia.. just hate SM's don't you.. rofl.

Fun though that is (and i love the game ) you can also heal by shooting people after a certain point (one of the Fury unlocks grants this)

Of course if we're allowing the game as valid game lore my Bomb Squigs are S 10 AP 2 large-blast weapons and my Nobz can take multiple lascannon hits dead on without being more than mildly vexed

Those things are the nastiest opponent in the game. I've died more to them than anything else in the game

razor5647 wrote:Most powerful in terms of specialization and military tactics perhaps but Marines cannot hope to match the numbers or firepower of other factions in the galaxy

I was talking about the Great Crusade, which was led by the Legion's of Astartes. Btw... what happened to the Orks during that time Melissia?

Arguing with space marine legions during the time period when marines had no set popcap and they where supplied with weaponry that has since been reduced to rare relic status is a non starter.

The marine legions and there primarchs during the great crusade could overwhelm any foe.

But it was not just the skills and strength of the marines it was that combined with the imperium being at its technological height and being led by the greatest minds humanity has ever produced.

under those conditions the imperial army could have been the primary fighting force of the great crusade. They may have not been as efficient or as resilient as the marines but with the tech and the leadership they could get the job done.

Every Guardsman a Meltagunner/non-overheating plasmagunner/etc.

Ascalam wrote:Every Guardsman a Meltagunner/non-overheating plasmagunner/etc.

exactly if all the army troops where equipped with advanced weapons and carapace armor (or even power armor) that combined with super leadership skills during this time period would ensure just as successful a crusade as marines provided.

razor5647 wrote:Arguing with space marine legions during the time period when marines had no set popcap and they where supplied with weaponry that has since been reduced to rare relic status is a non starter.

The marine legions and there primarchs during the great crusade could overwhelm any foe.

But it was not just the skills and strength of the marines it was that combined with the imperium being at its technological height and being led by the greatest minds humanity has ever produced.

under those conditions the imperial army could have been the primary fighting force of the great crusade. They may have not been as efficient or as resilient as the marines but with the tech and the leadership they could get the job done.

It was still mostly the Space Marines as they were the warriors of the time. I was referencing them considering it would be ALL of them against the whole galaxy since saying that a single chapter, even at full strength is designed to fail against odds that are not in the Imperium's interests, such as another revolt against Imperial authority. They, like the imperium are a shadow of what they once were, but there's no doubt they're still the best humanity has ever done in terms of making fighting machines.

DemetriDominov wrote:Ah, I see where this is going now.

You do? Well, I certainly don't. As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.

Melissia wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:Ah, I see where this is going now.

You do? Well, I certainly don't. As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.

Please don't make me quote myself to prove you wrong. Your devil's advocacy wasn't over my statement, it was on the words I used. Space marines are humanity's best warriors. I've said it three times now and never once have i said otherwise...

Right here, Demitri..

DemetriDominov wrote:why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors

You're the only one even remotely suggesting that they aren't.

I'm arguing that Marines aren't invulnerable gods of war. That doesn't mean that they aren't the best.

Melissia wrote:

The idea is simple. Marines aren't humans, therefor they are not humanity's best warriors.

Seriously Melissia, what the hell?

Your reading comprehension is going down. Is it bed time for you?

Melissia wrote:As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.

Melissia wrote:

Your reading comprehension is going down. Is it bed time for you?

Melissia wrote:As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.

I may be tired, but you for one were not a good devil's advocate either. You misquoted and fraudulently portrayed something I never once said, suggested, or even thought about. That's not devil's advocacy, that's downright deception.

You said this.

DemetriDominov wrote:why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors

A strawman argument which no-one in this thread agreed with. Therefor, because you made it and no one else did, the argument must belong to you. We don't leave orphaned arguments around here!

Melissia wrote:You said this.

DemetriDominov wrote:why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors

A strawman argument which no-one in this thread agreed with. Therefor, because you made it and no one else did, the argument must belong to you. We don't leave orphaned arguments around here!

It was orphaned by you the moment you took it out of context with the argument I've been having with you. A generalization maybe, but one that needed to be said in light of bashing the Astartes which was the reason why I made it and then connected it by saying that all forms of the lore point to the fact that you are vastly discrediting the abilities of the Space Marines. This might be my personal belief, but I think that the video game that was Space Marine was an accurate digital portrayal of what combat as a SM would be like in the 40k universe. Granted, it's a video game, so it can't necessarily be an exact portrayal of a SM, but its about 90% accurate when it comes to the lore. It was inspired by nearly every corner of 40k and is as much a part of the lore as any other source out there now.

DemetriDominov wrote:A generalization maybe, but one that needed to be said

No.

It was nothing more than a worthless strawman argument, and I gladly mocked it by taking it seriously.

Well, first you could argue that a transhuman or a human + would still essentially be a human.

Second, you could argue for the ancient meaning of human, which would encompass any mortal being capable of rationality (so a talking dog with human feelings and thought would essentially be a human).

Thirdly you could bring up the fact that 'Humanity', in this context, doesn't preclude abhumans or transhumans, and refers to the larger association of humankind and kin under the purview of the Imperium.

Finally you could say that there is no essential difference between using mechanical technology to enhance combat capacities, as in the case of Sisters wearing power armour, or using biological technology, as in the Astartes genetical enhancement program. If the Marines are cheating, then the Sisters are cheating, and everyone who doesn't go to war naked.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Well, first you could argue that a transhuman or a human + would still essentially be a human.

Second, you could argue for the ancient meaning of human, which would encompass any mortal being capable of rationality (so a talking dog with human feelings and thought would essentially be a human).

Thirdly you could bring up the fact that 'Humanity', in this context, doesn't preclude abhumans or transhumans, and refers to the larger association of humankind and kin under the purview of the Imperium.

Finally you could say that there is no essential difference between using mechanical technology to enhance combat capacities, as in the case of Sisters wearing power armour, or using biological technology, as in the Astartes genetical enhancement program. If the Marines are cheating, then the Sisters are cheating, and everyone who doesn't go to war naked.

Thank you.. finally some sense.. and some enjoyable humor.

'Yer, you 'erd 'em!

Only us orkz and da Kroot got it roight, and dem demon fellas, but dey's cheatin' by bein demonz anyhowz!
At least da kroot know enuff to be green!! '

Now I have an urge to build an army of streakers... Damn conversion urges..

Think of this...

In WWII, the German tanks were wayyyyyyy better then anything the allies had. A panzer could shrug off a hit by the main gun of a Sherman tank...problem for the Germans was that they couldn't field the numbers of panzers that we could of Shermans. So even though the attrition rate among allied forces was pretty bad, the sheer amount of firepower directed against these vastly superior German tanks eventually took its toll (most tank battles saw several Shermans agains 1 or maybe 2 Panzers).

This is great! I wish there was an Orkmoticon eating popcorn...

DoW

DemetriDominov wrote: Btw... what happened to the Orks during that time Melissia?

They had a really,really good time. The Legion did not even come close to really threatening the ork race or slowing it down in any meaningful way. But they had some really good fights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:'

Now I have an urge to build an army of streakers... Damn conversion urges..

As they are asexual it really does not matter now does it?

Hunterindarkness wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote: Btw... what happened to the Orks during that time Melissia?

They had a really,really good time. The Legion did not even come close to really threatening the ork race or slowing it down in any meaningful way. But they had some really good fights.

Then I'm at a bit of a disconnect then. How could the Orks not be slowed or pushed back by the great crusade's campaigns to unite the Imperium under the Emperor? Seems a bit far fetched to think that the Orks didn't loose some seriously major battles and get it's population decimated in the process.

Decimating the ork population just results in a bunch more Orks, as killing them makes them spore (so does not killing them) and the survivors get bigger and meaner. Any world they spore all over can only be Exterminatus'd.

A sensible approach would be to drive them back into contained areas, and police the edges agaisnt outbreaks, and for all we know that's what they did (there is diddly by way of information that i know of regarding the Orks during the Crusade, other than Big E being almost curbstomped by one ) If there is such info quote/link it, as i'd love to up my ork-lore

Killing one in ten (decimation) still leaves the other nine to bend you over and kick the green out of you They actually WANT you to do this, evolutionally, as it creates far more orks than there were to begin with, plus food and slaves at the same time. You're effectively supporting their supply chain by killing them, unless you utterly destroy every last one of them. If the Crusade was capable of that, there would be no orks all over the entire galaxy

The orks were driven back by the Great Crusade, but the Orks are EVERYWHERE in the galaxy, and the Crusade didn't conquer every square inch of space. I'm sure they lost a good few major battles, and i'm equally sure the Humans did too

The current Imperium is spread widely across the galaxy, but actually controls relatively little space (i grant you that it's also smaller than the glory days, but Humanity didn't own every inch of the Galaxy then either They just claimed they did, just like now. ('Do you have a flaaag? ' - Eddie Izzard)


And yes, they had a great time. The bigger the fight, the tougher the opponent, the more fun the Orks have.

IIRC there was an enormous Whaagh, maybe in answer to all the races rushing out of the way of the Crusade. The Biggest Baddest Boss of All Times (tm) almost killed the Emperor by strangling him, only to be saved by some dude (or Primarch).

Again, IIRC, the Orks were wiped after that boss was killed, like they always are, but it didn't slow them as a race. That's the thing, if anyone expects to win against Orks by wiping them out, then you expect the impossible. Still, EVERYONE can and will beat the Orks, because it only takes one casualty to stop a Whaagh.

So Orks will never cease being a threat, but they won't ever become one on par with the Nids, Chaos or Newcrons.