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While Orks have strength enough to potentially get through power armour, and Eldar have speed and skill to take down an armoured marine, how do enemies like Guardsmen or Tau fight them in close combat? I know that these troops aren't meant to fight up close, but considering marines can be rather keen to engage in hand to hand fighting, and the incompetence or callousness of some IG commanders can lead to infantry waves charging with bayonets, how can they possibly fight, or is there no hope for these guys?

They kill them through luck, sheer numbers, or shooting their guns at point blank range. A guardsman might get his face punched in while his sergeant attacks from behind with a power sword, a FW might fire his pulse rifle at point blank range into the marine's helmet.

Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).

I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.

flameShield();

With power/force weapons, that's how normal Orks would have to either be quite big nob/boss or in large numbers to overpower a space marine, and I don't care how dexterous eldar are if they don't posses the needed weaponry they are screwed. As far as guardsmen and tau go, the guardsmen might get lucky and hit a cable or a vulnerable spot with his bayonet 0.01% chance or something like that, there are guardsmen however like the catachans that use monomolecular blades that posses a liquid inner part to give the hit quite the additional force (they have a bigger chance then the regular guardsmen by quite an amount) and a tau fire warrior just wont be able to even turn that long of a rifle (doesn't matter if he is trying to get a point blank shot or a hit with the butt of the rifle) in CQC, but a tau losing in such conditions is just the way it's suppose to be.

Tau tend to bring an unfair amount of firepower, Like Broadsides or Crisis suits
Guards, Interesting tactics, Like a laser defense grid that avtivates when a charging marine happens.

I see no reason they cant just hug the space marine and pull some grenade pins....

skronk wrote:I see no reason they cant just hug the space marine and pull some grenade pins....

YOU go do that, Me and the sarge will stand back and watch.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).

I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.

flameShield();

I'm sure all those Banshees out there disagree with that.
Or Path of the Warrior, for that matter.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).

I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.

flameShield();

No need to flame; just gonna point out that the fluff proves you wrong. See the "Path Of" novel and the final book in the Night Lords trilogy for details on how Eldar tear through Space Marines like butter in close combat.

outnumber them. And pyskers kick their arses.

Guard/Tau get chewed up in close combat against Astartes. Both in tabletop and in fluff. Only if they massively outnumber them will they prevail.

In fluff, Tyranids come across as the most deadly in close combat.

Ok I see a lot of people giving examples for Eldar warriors killing SM, they do so with power weapons, the guy before me as well as I stated that those are needed, I have read the Path of the Warrior novel and find the chainswords cutting SM limbs off total BS, I can understand getting a good stab or slash with both skill and luck, but the way they portrayed it was just... O\_/o. Yes Banshees are almost made for fighting SM, but they use power weapons, and even Jain Zar eventually got owned by them and she is a phoenix lord (that's what the best and first warriors of each shrine were called right?).

Chainswords are typically noted as having teeth with monomolecular edges. Thats pretty damn sharp. Add in the extremely fast spinniness and you've got something that will cut through limbs quite effectively, regardless of what they're wearing to the party.

Flinty wrote:Chainswords are typically noted as having teeth with monomolecular edges. Thats pretty damn sharp. Add in the extremely fast spinniness and you've got something that will cut through limbs quite effectively, regardless of what they're wearing to the party.

Right... Not how I have seen it for the most part but that's 40k fluff for you, things just differ depending on sources.

Cheating.

Imagine you are a Tau/Guardsman with Basic Gear. I dunno about you, but I'm sure as hell not going to try and stab an Ultramarine with a Knife or try to beat him with a rifle.

I'm going to hide while he kills my friends and then try to shoot him or bash his skull in(or try anyways) with rebar, preferably with a clump of concrete at the hitty end.

As others have said, numbers and luck is the way to go for these people (outside of the odd power weapon).
Even Astartes have weak points (neck joint, eye lenses, knees and elbow joints) in their Power Armour, so with enough numbers/attacks, these can be found. As an example, in one of the HH books, it mentions how at least one Marine basically died to a stone-age-like human (IIRC) as he got a spear to the neck.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).

I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.

flameShield();

No need to flame; just gonna point out that the fluff proves you wrong. See the "Path Of" novel and the final book in the Night Lords trilogy for details on how Eldar tear through Space Marines like butter in close combat.

Emphasise mine.

... Really? Like butter? Path of the Warrior/Seer shows the difficulty in fighting Marines, whilst also describing the difficulty for Striking Scorpions to do so as a result of chainswords being unable to reliably penetrate Power Armour.
Obviously units such as Warlocks and Banshees are a different matter due to their equipment and abilities, but by and large, most Eldar struggle with Marines in all aspects, let alone close combat.
Their speed and reflexes provide real advantages for the Eldar when they are forced (emphasise forced, they would be unlikely to do it out of choice, bar specialised close combat units) into combat with an Astartes, but the likelihood is that they can only dodge and deflect for so long; once a Marine lands a blow, the fights basically over I'd imagine.

Easy the Zapp Brannigan strategy.

You see, Killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until they reached their limit and shut down.

The Dark Reapers also send their regards.

Just Dave wrote:

Emphasise mine.

... Really? Like butter?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

In addition,"most" Eldar don't lose against Space Marines in close-combat. "Most" Eldar who don't have CCW's that can penetrate astartes armor lose against Space Marines who have CCW weapons that can penetrate Eldar armor. A guardian that gets its hands on a power weapon is going to make mince-meat out of a Space Marine who's armed with only a bolter in close-combat.

Ergo, "Warlocks and Banshees only do so well because of their equipment, most Eldar get their butts kicked against Space Marines" is a redundant statement. All Eldar are equal to Space Marines in reflexes and all Eldar have at least rudimentary combat training. The only deciding factor is what equipment they have and who's the more skilled duelist.

In Blood Gorgons the few marines that are killed by normal humans (well zombies) are only killed when they're toppled over and have their armour pried apart by the beasts. The Mk8 power armour also has a neck guard, noting the number of times in the fluff that a guardsmen or the like gets a lucky shot against this unprotected area. Perhaps someone could jump onto a marine's back and start hammering at their neck join or eyes until they penetrate (assuming the marine doesn't just swat them off). Bring some sort of explosive and whack a hole in there armour, or find some way of decompressing it and slowly unlatching it piece by piece (....which is completely practical of course).=/

But in that novel space marines pretty much walk around like tanks. They do go for cover when the number of auto/las rounds hitting them becomes a torrent, and are torn up by bolt ruins not too difficultly, but otherwise they just go through the motions when fighting lesser opponents-ie the Eldar are fast, but the marines just wait for them to close into and clobber them with a wrecking ball strength (comparatively) punch.

I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that a power suit isn't bulletproof everywhere. I remember reading somewhere (possibly here) that they have weak spots, like exposed power cables and weakly armored joints, so you could probably maim or decapitate an SM if you just hit the right spot, or at least sever some cables to make his suit useless.

Am I wrong?

The Heresy Era suits and earlier models (bar the Mk5) all had exposed power cables, or in the case of the Heresy suit was made of weaper materials than conventional suits. Later models have the cables inside the suits (and its common for older suits like the Corvus to have the cables relocated inside the armour too). A marine's suit is meant to be impenatrable against most conventional weapons in all areas bar the joins between pieces (ie the armpit), eye sockets (which are plated, but not made from armoured ceramite like the rest of the suit) and ventilation ports (ie the big one at the center of a Corvus suit's chest plate or all over any of the Mk's helmets, unless their closed-which also means the marine has to rely on their internal systems for oxygen rather than the outside atmosphere). If a suit loses its power back then the marine only has so much time left before the power runs out and he's left to move the suit with his strength alone (ie its just an armoured suit, it loses its ability to adapt to a marine's movements, -in some suits- incoming fire, and functions like air recycling, auspex and communication).

Yori wrote:Ok I see a lot of people giving examples for Eldar warriors killing SM, they do so with power weapons, the guy before me as well as I stated that those are needed, I have read the Path of the Warrior novel and find the chainswords cutting SM limbs off total BS, I can understand getting a good stab or slash with both skill and luck, but the way they portrayed it was just... O\_/o. Yes Banshees are almost made for fighting SM, but they use power weapons, and even Jain Zar eventually got owned by them and she is a phoenix lord (that's what the best and first warriors of each shrine were called right?).

Matters on the eldar too. Scorpions hunt and their weapons are incredibly strong. Especially because they are injected with certain things. but against marines? They fail. They are light infantry killers.
Plus path of the warrior was just bleh

Wyrmalla wrote:The Heresy Era suits and earlier models (bar the Mk5) all had exposed power cables, or in the case of the Heresy suit was made of weaper materials than conventional suits. Later models have the cables inside the suits (and its common for older suits like the Corvus to have the cables relocated inside the armour too). A marine's suit is meant to be impenatrable against most conventional weapons in all areas bar the joins between pieces (ie the armpit), eye sockets (which are plated, but not made from armoured ceramite like the rest of the suit) and ventilation ports (ie the big one at the center of a Corvus suit's chest plate or all over any of the Mk's helmets, unless their closed-which also means the marine has to rely on their internal systems for oxygen rather than the outside atmosphere). If a suit loses its power back then the marine only has so much time left before the power runs out and he's left to move the suit with his strength alone (ie its just an armoured suit, it loses its ability to adapt to a marine's movements, -in some suits- incoming fire, and functions like air recycling, auspex and communication).

Pretty much what I was thinking!

How well does power armour stand against crushing blows, though? I can see how cutting through it might be impossible if you don't have a chainsword, but surely you could smash a helmet somehow?

@ ChaoticBob

Again in the novel Blood Gorgons a marine is caught in a landslide. He spends a few days slowly digging his way out, but otherwise doesn't suffer too much damage. I would assume that marines are protected to a certain amount of pressure so as to withstand the vacuum of space and depressurisation (I recall a short story where a group of marines walked along the sea bed to assault an under water mechanicus facility). If a boulder fell on a marine then their chest armour would probably cave in (ie strength 8 rockslide defeats toughness 4 marine). An Ogryn could probably pry open a suit of power armour or bash in a marine's head if they landed enough blows (chaos spawn crush marines all the time in the fluff..... ^^),but for a normal human it would be like battering your fists against concrete.

All Armor will have weak points. They have to have flexibility in some area's or spots where they go together. No matter how good to suit, it will have weak points.

Now being strong enough or having something sharp enough to take advantage of those, while not dying . Is another story

how do enemies like Guardsmen or Tau fight them in close combat?

Fluffwise? They don't.

The tabletop game is balanced so that any one army has the opportunity to beat any other army. The tabletop is not designed around the fluff. Sometimes, the reverse is true, but not always.

Yori wrote:

Flinty wrote:Chainswords are typically noted as having teeth with monomolecular edges. Thats pretty damn sharp. Add in the extremely fast spinniness and you've got something that will cut through limbs quite effectively, regardless of what they're wearing to the party.

Right... Not how I have seen it for the most part but that's 40k fluff for you, things just differ depending on sources.

Read the Horus Heresy novels. Chainswords tear up marines better then bolter fire does. And those are just clumsy human chainswords, not those produced by a race that was conquering the galaxy when dinosaurs were eating our distant relatives.

You cant break a tree with one blow from a hatchet, but if you have ten people hitting the tree, the tree will fall faster.

Dayvuni wrote:You cant break a tree with one blow from a hatchet, but if you have ten people hitting the tree, the tree will fall faster.

Or use a guy with a demolition charge strapped to his chest