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I'm sure it's probably easier to wait until that Space Marine becomes important enough to the plot to not have to wear a helmet anymore. Then you can shoot him point blank in the face!

DoW

I reckon that they (especially guardsmen) could go the suicide route and start blowing themselves up, or overwhelming them with bodies etc.

Go the gaunt route, throw so many at him that he runs out of bolts and then just dogpile him until your sheer total mass can crack his armour. With the tyranid to space marine number ratio, it's still a win for you.

Meh Space marines are overhyped when it comes to these things. One primitive savage armed with a wooden spear did manage to take down a word bearer in The First heretic remember? Made a bloody mess out of the unfortunate marine's throat.

Flinty wrote:Or use a guy with a demolition charge strapped to his chest

Then you can get several targets Lesser unit+big explosive=useful unit

Im thinking sheer numbers. A space marine could beat a guardsmen hands down. Unless this is a guardsmen who gets off a lucky point blank shot or has 20 other buddies with him.

I think eldar could beat a space marine in combat as take lilith in the dark eldar history took down space marine after space marine to qoute 'at their head fought lelith hesperax; grace and power incarnate. Warriors fell apart before her; chainsword fell from lifeless hands and bolt rounds hurtled through empty space where a blood splattered she-devil stood a split second before.

Redcruisair wrote:Meh Space marines are overhyped when it comes to these things. One primitive savage armed with a wooden spear did manage to take down a word bearer in The First heretic remember? Made a bloody mess out of the unfortunate marine's throat.

Thats the old armor. The old armor of pervious marks has those exposed parts uncovered. So it is not surprising that CSM get owned more often. It is because of their 'weaker' marks of armor.

The old marks of armour do have numerous instances of failing to protect such the one mentioned and also the dark apostle when a terminator get cooked when hiding in a cave by an imperial guard flamer (very ignominious end.). Another way SMs or CSMs can be beaten by lesser races

SM's are easy pray at range to a sniper as well. But massed fire at range and massed attack at close range can bring one down easy enough.

Hunterindarkness wrote:SM's are easy pray at range to a sniper as well. But massed fire at range and massed attack at close range can bring one down easy enough.

Very true. I recall a pathfinder taking out an entire squad of marines with 15 shots. Pathfinders are OP in fluff and in the actual game.

All this talk of armour weakness etc is going Off topic...


To beat SM as Tau one simply uses Casino Dice.


See using chessex you will always lose as they suck and roll 1's a lot =]

But on a more serious note... Tau basic Firewarriors have a S5 rifle with 30" Range..... Thats a oretty good way to beat Power Armour in this game... the only thing that is moot is the fact vehicles are now worth about 5 pts so every is mech and a 30" range means shyte.,

Milisim wrote:All this talk of armour weakness etc is going Off topic...


To beat SM as Tau one simply uses Casino Dice.


See using chessex you will always lose as they suck and roll 1's a lot =]

But on a more serious note... Tau basic Firewarriors have a S5 rifle with 30" Range..... Thats a oretty good way to beat Power Armour in this game... the only thing that is moot is the fact vehicles are now worth about 5 pts so every is mech and a 30" range means shyte.,

Are you trolling. This 40k background. Not 40k Tactics.
This is fluff debating. And yes it actually is on topic. Your agrument is off-topic as your talking table-top. Were talking in the fluff.

think of it like the order 66 form star wars, a bunch of clones killed a crap ton of jedi knights/masters right?

Marine chapters dont have alot of soldiers, each chapter has mabe thousands, while the Tau army has tens of millions.

In a matched # situation space marines would win, but other armies beat space marines easily by just shooting them to death on the front line.

When the space marines invaded commoragh they got smacked because they were outnumbered, and the DE just shot them from everywhere.

If a Lasgun can kill a marine at range, why can't it kill him at point blank range?

It can, so can mines, grenades and an assortment of other things. They are tough, not invincible. Chargeing in will get them killed almost every time aginest a trained and competent foe.

Nitros14 wrote:If a Lasgun can kill a marine at range, why can't it kill him at point blank range?

True enough. I agree.

Although I always liked how they described Justicar Alaric's wounds from massed lasgun fire (possibly hundreds of shots) in Grey Knights. Basically the lasguns couldn't penetrate his armour, but they heated the ceramite material so hot that it burned his skin, basically cooking him.

Non-massed Lasgun fire could potentially kill a SM, but unless it's a Gaunt's Ghosts novel, this is probably very, very difficult. The ceramic component of the armour makes it almost invulnerable to heat based weaponry unless it's meant to bore through tank armour (Lascannons, Melta weapons, etc) and unless we're talking about old-style Power Armour there really aren't too many 'weak spots' to hit.

I remember someone describing SM armour as being similar to that of an Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) like a Bradley. You could probably fire 1000 rounds of small-arms into it without doing any real damage.

I also liken it to medieval knights wearing heavy plate. You couldn't reliably pierce the armour with swords/arrows/ so the goal was to dent the armour so that the warrior could no longer breathe or knock him down and overwhelm him while prone. I feel like this would be the goal with a SM as well.

DoW

I really think how good the armor is depends upon the fluff. In some fluff it is almost impossible to break though, in other chain swords or other such weapons do so .

I think Mass fire would get though, but a single shot would not do much without aiming at weak points and having luck.

IG and Tau use weight of fire.All Eldar elite warriors are equipped with power weapons or ranged weapons that can destroy power armor.Orks use incredible physical strength and massive caliber shootas,which are kind of like innacurate bolt guns.

"Close combat" isn't just hand-to-hand and melee weapons, it also incorporates point-blank shots and any dirty trick you can come up with. If all you have is a knife you either have to be very good or get creative. Fight in damaged buildings where your unarmored troops can move unhindered while marines risk crashing through floors. Fight in a swamp, or flood the battlefield so it's neck-deep mud for anyone heavier than a man. The marines will still smash a good deal of opponents but they're slowed down and unable to use their full strength.

And as the BRB says, not all casualties are necessarily dead. They just can't carry on for some reason. When a marine fails a save in CC he probably didn't die as often as have some system shut down or get stuck so badly that you need a Rhino to dig him out.

If your a commander of Tau or Imperial guard and allow yourself to come into CQC with Space Marines, you've already lost in the over arching scheme of things. You aren't playing to your strengths and in fact your playing in theirs.

There's been a lot of mentions here but things like grenades, point blank firing and massed dogpiles would get there eventually but with their bare hands or combat knives most human grade opponents are going to struggle.

Eldar guardians are just as fast as a marine but lack the strength, durability or stamina of a marine and so would likely be relying on close range catapult fire, Aspect Warriors and Dark Eldar are another matter. Using initiative scores they are as far beyond the marine as he is to a human in terms of raw speed. Marines are stronger and tougher but if the Eldar has any kit to pierce the armour then the marine is stuffed.

Some races like gaunts have the added bonus over the guardsman that the guardsman may well hesitate to give his own life just to give one of his buddies an opportunity, a gaunt wont.

Marines are powerful warriors in their own right, but a good chunk of their power in melee is that power armour, there are many more deadly races in the galaxy and numbers and a lack of self preservation can even a fight up fast even before specialist weapons.

I imagine that a fight between a marine and an Eldar is like the one in Sin City with the leaping and the slashing just making the Marine angrier and angrier...

Dark Disciple is, IMHO, a good description of how Eldar fight against SM. Keeping their distance, overextending the marines and striking at their weak points. When a marine swings his chainsword/power weapon/fist/hammer/bare hands, it takes time. Not a huge amount of time, mind you, but slower than an Eldar can move. Dark Disciple describes it as the marines just barely missing the Eldar, who were at some points mere millimeters away from landing the blow.

As for guardsmen? When a Space Marine swings his weapon or fists, there's going to be a vulnerable part exposed. Joints, his neck, etc. There's nothing stopping a guardsmen from stabbing a marine in the eye (which isn't ceramite/adamantium/feth all armor) with his bayonet and killing/maiming/wounding him seriously.

People act like marines have I10 S10 T10 at times... seriously.

The Tau abhor Close Combat and unless in the direst circumstances (For instance that horrible McNeil Book Courage and Honor, where the Pathfinders go apeshit in trying to defend the Ethereal), so they would be firing their weapons moreso than using them as clubs. And where are the Kroot when all of this happens?

In a short sotry I read, "Voice(call?) of Blood" an enitre regiment of guardsmen went over to Khorne(because they were tired of being treated, like, well, guardsmen lol) and a squad of black templar had to stop them from reaching a spaceport. An assualt squad(of 3 guys) tried to delay them, but were overpowered when the frenzied guardsmen dogpiled them and dragged them to the ground, picked up chunks of ferrocrete and bashed them repeatedly in the helmet till they died...

Nothing says projectiles arent allowed in CC.
Even the fluff states that pistols and the likes are used.

Why would a guardsmen or firewarrior try and hit/stab/beat what is essentially a walking tank when they can fire point blank at them?
The start of dawn of wars a good example showing how a marine will use a chainsword while firing his pistol at the same time.

The Space Marines should be defeated very easy. They dresses all in bright color, then send a bomber for the Space Marines.

Massive numbers, powerful weapons (power weapons, power fists), and luck.