I want to believe

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**The Bringer**

generalgrog wrote:
Trying to post from iPhone..so sorry for short response but according to Christian belief a fallen angel is by default a demon. Satan fell to earth with 1/3 of the angels(don't remember exact text right now). So Satan and 1/3 of the angels being all fallen angels are considered demons.
GG

Yes, demons are simply fallen angels according to the Bible.

I believe in Demons/Angels/God.

I myself believe that Demons do torment people in various ways. I have heard first-hand accounts of odd events happening to someone they attribute to ghosts, but I would attribute to demons.

When I was younger I had something called night-terrors which is like a night-mare, but far worse. You are awake, but your view of reality is incredibly twisted and you are scared to death of everything. This happened to me when I was 5-10 years old. I genuinely believe that it was caused by demons tormenting me. It has happened to me and another person I know and it has ended (for both of us) when we prayed about it continually.

**PhantomViper**

I'd never heard the term "Stardust" to describe the process of "hydrogen -> nucleosynthesis-> heavy elements created -> star goes nova -> created elements spread through the universe" before.

It just seams like a gross oversimplification and romanticization of a highly complex process to me.

**kronk**

Carl Sagan used to use that term all of the time. Also, it's in a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song!

I hear it quite a bit on the science/space/nature programs on the History Channel, Discovery Channel, and Science Channel.

It's probably an American/United Kingdom phrase you hadn't been exposed to.

**dæl**

Nothing is ever completely destroyed. Have you not ever heard of the saying about us being made from Stardust? We are made up from Stardust and that gets recycled, whether it's back into a living breathing human or in ten million years into a rock.

When matter comes into contact with antimatter they are both annihilated entirely.

If we are talking about aliens then yes they undoubtedly exist, we probably have never net them, but they are out there. Ghosts, daemons etc. not a chance.

**generalgrog**

dæl wrote:

If we are talking about aliens then yes they undoubtedly exist, we probably have never net them, but they are out there. Ghosts, daemons etc. not a chance.

This right here is a perfect example of faith.

GG

**rubiksnoob**

Religion thread ahoy! Thar on the horizon, Cap'n! Ready the flame cannons and bible bombs! Prepare to debate your maker!

**Vitruvian XVII**

**hotsauceman1**

Please lets not turn this into a thread about religion.

**KingCracker**

rubiksnoob wrote:Religion thread ahoy! Thar on the horizon, Cap'n! Ready the flame cannons and bible bombs! Prepare to debate your maker!

It wasnt until you started to compare it to one.

**dæl**

generalgrog wrote:
dæl wrote:

If we are talking about aliens then yes they undoubtedly exist, we probably have never net them, but they are out there. Ghosts, daemons etc. not a chance.

This right here is a perfect example of faith.

GG

No, its a perfect example of probability. A hundred billion stars in a hundred billion galaxies means that there will be quite a lot of planets in the goldilocks zone, and our goldilocks zone may not apply to non carbon based life. Hell, there may be sentient life in our solar system on Titan or Enceladus.

**Vitruvian XVII**

I'll just leave this here....

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/14/the-sirens-of-titan/

Very cool

**Corpsesarefun**

dæl wrote:
Nothing is ever completely destroyed. Have you not ever heard of the saying about us being made from Stardust? We are made up from Stardust and that gets recycled, whether it's back into a living breathing human or in ten million years into a rock.
When matter comes into contact with antimatter they are both annihilated entirely.

If we are talking about aliens then yes they undoubtedly exist, we probably have never net them, but they are out there. Ghosts, daemons etc. not a chance.

Close, when matter and the particles antimatter counterpart collide then annihilate into energy as per E=MC^2.

**Orlanth**

I have witnessed enough of the supernatural that I have no logical choice but to believe it exists. How much exists and in which form is more the issue, I try to avoid rejecting claims out of hand

**timetowaste85**

PhantomViper wrote:
timetowaste85 wrote:+1 to Satan being a fallen angel. Now that that's over with...

My step brother took pictures of a supposedly haunted building, snapped one photo down a totally empty hallway and looked at the picture when he got back to his room. See-through human shape in the middle of the hall. Nobody believed it until he passed the picture around. Kind of hard not to believe after seeing it...

When I was in college I worked in two buildings that were haunted-one ghost only watched me as I closed up at night (not friendly-it was very creepy), the other screwed around with us-my stupidly brave friend tried to run away, I fell over (never having experienced vertigo before and having near perfect balance) and it manifested in front of another friend and shrieked at him.

So yes...I believe in ghosts. And aliens are a given-anyone who believes this planet is the only one capable of supporting life in the entire universe is either arrogant or stupid beyond belief. Possibly both. Demons? Only Satan's minions in hell. No Constantine-type stuff.

Nice that you have photographic evidence, care to share it with the rest of us?

Sure-I sent him a text asking for it. It's 2am here though and he has work at 6-I wouldn't expect an answer til his first break. Is that an honest 'nice' or a snide 'nice'? Hard to tell online. Honest gets a pleasant 'sure'. Snide gets narrowed eyes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Bringer wrote:
generalgrog wrote:
Trying to post from iPhone..so sorry for short response but according to Christian belief a fallen angel is by default a demon. Satan fell to earth with 1/3 of the angels(don't remember exact text right now). So Satan and 1/3 of the angels being all fallen angels are considered demons.
GG

Yes, demons are simply fallen angels according to the Bible.

I believe in Demons/Angels/God.

I myself believe that Demons do torment people in various ways. I have heard first-hand accounts of odd events happening to someone they attribute to ghosts, but I would attribute to demons.

When I was younger I had something called night-terrors which is like a night-mare, but far worse. You are awake, but your view of reality is incredibly twisted and you are scared to death of everything. This happened to me when I was 5-10 years old. I genuinely believe that it was caused by demons tormenting me. It has happened to me and another person I know and it has ended (for both of us) when we prayed about it continually.

Happened to me twice. Once when I was 18, the other time 3 weeks ago. It's hard to snap out of, but it's an imbalance of chemicals, not a possession.

**KingCracker**

Imbalance caused by Demons mate

**snurl**

Just google "old hag syndrome" and you will find that night terrors are far more common than you may have thought.
It is interesting that different cultures interperit the cause of night terrors in very diverse ways, yet all have the same basic symptoms.

I experienced a night terror one time. As for the rest of the paranormal stuff I just keep an open mind.

**The Bringer**

The Bringer wrote:
When I was younger I had something called night-terrors which is like a night-mare, but far worse. You are awake, but your view of reality is incredibly twisted and you are scared to death of everything. This happened to me when I was 5-10 years old. I genuinely believe that it was caused by demons tormenting me. It has happened to me and another person I know and it has ended (for both of us) when we prayed about it continually.

Happened to me twice. Once when I was 18, the other time 3 weeks ago. It's hard to snap out of, but it's an imbalance of chemicals, not a possession.

**dæl**

The Bringer wrote:So you believe it was a chemical imbalance... I believe it was the supernatural.

whatevs... they are both a kind of faith

No, you see the difference is, one is actually provable.

**The Bringer**

dæl wrote:
The Bringer wrote:So you believe it was a chemical imbalance... I believe it was the supernatural.

whatevs... they are both a kind of faith

No, you see the difference is, one is actually provable.

It is possible to "prove", given a few assumptions.

Anyways, why can it not be both? As Christians believe, God controls science... he created it and if he so chooses he can bend it or do away with it. Why not use chemical imbalances to achieve his purpose? Why can't demons with there "magic" bend human binds using scientific processes?

Your "proof" assumes that what you believe to be science is the absolute truth, and there is nothing more to understand.

Am I correct?

**dæl**

My idea of proof is that you can make rational inferences based on the evidence, that and not a shred more. Supernatural occurrences have generally had rational explanations, and those that don't aren't daemonic, they are just beyond our current understanding.

To answer you're point that they may be conventionally explained but also have the hand of some other force behind them, that may well be the case but it's just as likely to be a leprechaun as a daemon.

I'm open minded to the idea there may be multi dimensional being who would appear god-like to us, but I very much doubt they are either benevolent or malevolent.

**generalgrog**

Again..from the iPhone...
Deal...you can't prove scientifically aliens exist you can't prove scientifically demons exist. Either position is faith based. Both have probabilities and assumptions.
GG

**dæl**

generalgrog wrote:Again..from the iPhone...
Deal...you can't prove scientifically aliens exist you can't prove scientifically demons exist. Either position is faith based. Both have probabilities and assumptions.
GG

And the probability that we are the only sentient life to have ever existed in the universe is pretty small.
The probability that there are metaphysical beings that there isn't a single piece of evidence for in the history of humanity, that are intervening in our lives, a hell of a lot smaller.

Do you believe in fairies and elves and that Batman is roaming around New York? No? Well that's a faith based position too.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

dæl wrote:
generalgrog wrote:Again..from the iPhone...
Deal...you can't prove scientifically aliens exist you can't prove scientifically demons exist. Either position is faith based. Both have probabilities and assumptions.
GG

And the probability that we are the only sentient life to have ever existed in the universe is pretty small.

but is still unproven, therefore it is a matter of faith in it's existence or lack thereof

**dæl**

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
dæl wrote:
generalgrog wrote:Again..from the iPhone...
Deal...you can't prove scientifically aliens exist you can't prove scientifically demons exist. Either position is faith based. Both have probabilities and assumptions.
GG

And the probability that we are the only sentient life to have ever existed in the universe is pretty small.

but is still unproven, therefore it is a matter of faith in it's existence or lack thereof

Yes, and the existence of fairies and elves have not been absolutely unproven, so again, that is also a "matter of faith." When you consider that it is widely believed that amino acids arrived here on an asteroid and started life on this planet, it becomes incredibly likely that somewhere in the hundred billion galaxies that each contain a hundred billion stars there also exists, either now or previously, life on other planets.

**The Bringer**

dæl wrote:
The probability that there are metaphysical beings that there isn't a single piece of evidence for in the history of humanity, that are intervening in our lives, a hell of a lot smaller.

Well... the thing is Jesus was a man to walk the earth... what happened in his life is up for debate.

dæl wrote:
Do you believe in fairies and elves and that Batman is roaming around New York? No? Well that's a faith based position too.

no... because there actually isn't a shred of evidence for those that I know of...

Anyways, by your reasoning of "chances" and "probability"....... what is the chance life was created randomly?

I'd just like to end there. True odds can never be calculated and numbers won't change anybodies mind.

**generalgrog**

dæl wrote:
......When you consider that it is widely believed that amino acids arrived here on an asteroid and started life on this planet, it becomes incredibly likely that somewhere in the hundred billion galaxies that each contain a hundred billion stars there also exists, either now or previously, life on other planets.

Interesting...when someone says widely believed they are speaking from a stance of faith. It's also widely believed that a creator created the earth. See how faith works?
GG

**dæl**

The Bringer wrote:
dæl wrote:
The probability that there are metaphysical beings that there isn't a single piece of evidence for in the history of humanity, that are intervening in our lives, a hell of a lot smaller.

Well... the thing is Jesus was a man to walk the earth... what happened in his life is up for debate.

Most of what happened in his life is well documented, the debate arises from whether he was a metaphysical being or just a all round good bloke who said things would be a lot better if we were all nice to one another, and whether his miracles were performed as we are told they were.

The Bringer wrote:
dæl wrote:
Do you believe in fairies and elves and that Batman is roaming around New York? No? Well that's a faith based position too.

no... because there actually isn't a shred of evidence for those that I know of...

Anyways, by your reasoning of "chances" and "probability"....... what is the chance life was created randomly?

Apparently you missed the hundred billion galaxies each with a hundred billion stars bit. So yeah, the odds are pretty high when you think about it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:
dæl wrote:
......When you consider that it is widely believed that amino acids arrived here on an asteroid and started life on this planet, it becomes incredibly likely that somewhere in the hundred billion galaxies that each contain a hundred billion stars there also exists, either now or previously, life on other planets.

Interesting...when someone says widely believed they are speaking from a stance of faith. It's also widely believed that a creator created the earth. See how faith works?
GG

Well one is a supposition made to explain how we came to be here based on evidence and deductive reasoning, the other is a supposition made to explain how we came to be here based on what was proposed by people quite some time ago, the same people who made propositions at the time which we now find backward and choose to ignore (Or do you still believe the Pre-Copernican model of the universe?). Do you see the inherent difference there.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

Apparently you missed the hundred billion galaxies each with a hundred billion stars bit. So yeah, the odds are pretty high when you think about it.

But the vast majority of stars don't have planets,
the majority of planets don't have an atmosphere or are gas giants
Very few stars are similar in size to our sun, the majority being much larger

All these and lots of other factors massively reduce the odds

**Kovnik Obama**

Which are all statistically irrelevant once you take in account the possibility that the E.T. in question might very well be quite more advanced then us, and intentionally searching for other life forms.

And we're also looking. We're currently looking 10 billion more (or quicker depending on how you see it) then in 1960.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/seth_shostak_et_is_probably_out_there_get_ready.html

And the odds of life developing on a planet are always getting revised for the greater. Experts are now saying between 1/100 and 1/1000 over the planets in the appropriate solar range. Over a total of one trillion planet in this galaxy alone...

**PhantomViper**

kronk wrote:Carl Sagan used to use that term all of the time. Also, it's in a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song! I hear it quite a bit on the science/space/nature programs on the History Channel, Discovery Channel, and Science Channel.

It's probably an American/United Kingdom phrase you hadn't been exposed to.

Yeah, I read Sagan, but always in the Portuguese translation and never in the original English so it really is just a case of never having been exposed to the term before.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

timetowaste85 wrote:

Sure-I sent him a text asking for it. It's 2am here though and he has work at 6-I wouldn't expect an answer til his first break. Is that an honest 'nice' or a snide 'nice'? Hard to tell online. Honest gets a pleasant 'sure'. Snide gets narrowed eyes.

This time its an honest "nice".

I don't really believe in any supernatural occurrences, but I still find them really interesting and nothing really beats a good "horror" story.