Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In terms of portable, most armies are borderline non portable and need multiple bulky cases, so your point is moot on that subject.

Everyone moaning and groaning about 6th ED rules, it is the same for every edition. You like the way the rules are and don't want them to change and everytime something new comes out that changes a lot of stuff you where previously in your comfy zone about, everyone gets in a tizzy. It happens to everything.

But if they didn't do this than the game would grow stagnant and it would be the same old stuff different day, where nothing is changed and everything is stale. What kind of world would this be if everything was stagnant. Boring.

For people complaining that the rules are not to THEIR liking and that are unwanted, you may not want them but others might.

I'm not for or against the rulebook, that's not the matter here, the issue becomes personal preference vs fresh and new.

Abyssel wrote:In terms of portable, most armies are borderline non portable and need multiple bulky cases, so your point is moot on that subject.

Everyone moaning and groaning about 6th ED rules, it is the same for every edition. You like the way the rules are and don't want them to change and everytime something new comes out that changes a lot of stuff you where previously in your comfy zone about, everyone gets in a tizzy. It happens to everything.

But if they didn't do this than the game would grow stagnant and it would be the same old stuff different day, where nothing is changed and everything is stale. What kind of world would this be if everything was stagnant. Boring.

For people complaining that the rules are not to THEIR liking and that are unwanted, you may not want them but others might.

I'm not for or against the rulebook, that's not the matter here, the issue becomes personal preference vs fresh and new.

I'm not sure why you're waving the GW banner here, when there aren't that many people moaning and groaning about 6th. If anything, people are ready for something fresh, since the 5th edition scene has gotten a bit stale (GK, GK, SW, GK, GK, SW, IG, GK, GK, GK).

As for portability, a huge and very heavy book does indeed present portability problems. Then there's the fact that half the book will having nothing to do with rules, and will only be a distraction/hinderance when trying to look something up during the game.

I'm sorry if that came off a little to blunt (ginger here, it's all we do) but I see a lot of gripe and have heard a lot of gripe about 6th.

As for the portability and stuff, Yeah I understand the book is huge, but for 5th, once I memorized the rules I left the book at home or in the car. I rarely ever pull it out because I don't need to. If the fluff gets in the way, go to the store, buy $3 tabs, and tab pages for rules that are constantly misread or argued?

So, maybe I missed it, but there's a very good reason why me and lots of other people will buy the new rulebook when it comes out. 40k isn't just a game, it's a hobby. Were 40k just a game, then yeah, it would make the most sense to spend as little on the rules as you could, but it's not.

Without the full book, you miss out on 100% of the fluff. Grimdark doesn't make sense if you don't have the full rulebook. Why armies and units and even some characters are they way they are doesn't make sense. Why the miniatures are the way they are is greatly enhanced by buying the big rule book. The story and the hobby is so immersive, and by buying only the tiny rulebook, you're diving into the shallow end.

If you're one of those people for whom 40k is JUST a game, and you get flavor of the month armies that you ALWAYS just field grey, and then sell them off on ebay when you've convinced yourself that the army isn't competitive anymore, then sure, buy the tiny rulebook. If you can't afford the monstrous price tag, but want to keep playing until you can, then sure, get the tiny rulebook. If you care about the rich world of 40k, or if you care about the hobby, or, really, if you care about the game outside of the statlines at all, then sooner or later, you're getting the big rule book.

Anything else is just making excuses to try and pretend that your interaction with 40k isn't actually rather shallow...

Still it's hard to justify the $124 for me on the story alone as much as I'd enjoy it; $80 just feels like my cap on a book. Even then I wonder how much of it would be new and how much would be a rehash of a previous iteration. Some of the pictures in it are quite nice too.

It just feels like a lot of the information would be more or less something I had already seen; like the general organisation of the IoM, Astartes etc. Does this make me shallow?

n0t_u wrote:Still it's hard to justify the $124 for me on the story alone as much as I'd enjoy it;

$99 through Milsims.

Cheaper from the US, but shipping makes it not by very much.

LunaHound wrote:
Fancy expensive book? very no desu.

Really? Ew. I hate weaboos. Cool avatar, though.

Ailaros wrote:So, maybe I missed it, but there's a very good reason why me and lots of other people will buy the new rulebook when it comes out. 40k isn't just a game, it's a hobby. Were 40k just a game, then yeah, it would make the most sense to spend as little on the rules as you could, but it's not.

Without the full book, you miss out on 100% of the fluff. Grimdark doesn't make sense if you don't have the full rulebook. Why armies and units and even some characters are they way they are doesn't make sense. Why the miniatures are the way they are is greatly enhanced by buying the big rule book. The story and the hobby is so immersive, and by buying only the tiny rulebook, you're diving into the shallow end.

If you're one of those people for whom 40k is JUST a game, and you get flavor of the month armies that you ALWAYS just field grey, and then sell them off on ebay when you've convinced yourself that the army isn't competitive anymore, then sure, buy the tiny rulebook. If you can't afford the monstrous price tag, but want to keep playing until you can, then sure, get the tiny rulebook. If you care about the rich world of 40k, or if you care about the hobby, or, really, if you care about the game outside of the statlines at all, then sooner or later, you're getting the big rule book.

Anything else is just making excuses to try and pretend that your interaction with 40k isn't actually rather shallow...

Except, of course, for people who have been playing the game/reading BL long enough to know all that backstory stuff. It will likely be 99% recycled material, and then a few new tidbits from Ward which I would rather just not be aware of.

Yeah no way i can(will) pay $124 for the book ( that about the same US at current exchange rate) i don't know how ill get my hands on it, most likely ill wait until the boxed set.

insaniak wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Still it's hard to justify the $124 for me on the story alone as much as I'd enjoy it;

$99 through Milsims.

Cheaper from the US, but shipping makes it not by very much.

Shipping is the main reason I'm not going to try and get it online. Even in Australia - I'd rather pay the extra $25au and support my FLGS.

I don't have a local FLGS...... so online! or boxed set

Omegus wrote:

Ailaros wrote:So, maybe I missed it, but there's a very good reason why me and lots of other people will buy the new rulebook when it comes out. 40k isn't just a game, it's a hobby. Were 40k just a game, then yeah, it would make the most sense to spend as little on the rules as you could, but it's not.

Without the full book, you miss out on 100% of the fluff. Grimdark doesn't make sense if you don't have the full rulebook. Why armies and units and even some characters are they way they are doesn't make sense. Why the miniatures are the way they are is greatly enhanced by buying the big rule book. The story and the hobby is so immersive, and by buying only the tiny rulebook, you're diving into the shallow end.

If you're one of those people for whom 40k is JUST a game, and you get flavor of the month armies that you ALWAYS just field grey, and then sell them off on ebay when you've convinced yourself that the army isn't competitive anymore, then sure, buy the tiny rulebook. If you can't afford the monstrous price tag, but want to keep playing until you can, then sure, get the tiny rulebook. If you care about the rich world of 40k, or if you care about the hobby, or, really, if you care about the game outside of the statlines at all, then sooner or later, you're getting the big rule book.

Anything else is just making excuses to try and pretend that your interaction with 40k isn't actually rather shallow...

Except, of course, for people who have been playing the game/reading BL long enough to know all that backstory stuff. It will likely be 99% recycled material, and then a few new tidbits from Ward which I would rather just not be aware of.

This.

We all know most of the fluff will be a rehash with a few bits of Ward's "wisdom" thrown in. No reason to pay extra for stuff you've read before. I eagerly await the smaller rulebook as not to lug around a massive cinderblock type thing that can probably be used as an effective weapon if you get the right swing on it.

khaosspacemarines wrote:I don't have a local FLGS...... so online! or boxed set

Likewise. I don't have a nearby store, and likely wouldn't play there if I did. So supporting Milsims at least keeps it in the country, so to speak.

Grimtuff wrote:

This.

We all know most of the fluff will be a rehash with a few bits of Ward's "wisdom" thrown in. No reason to pay extra for stuff you've read before. I eagerly await the smaller rulebook as not to lug around a massive cinderblock type thing that can probably be used as an effective weapon if you get the right swing on it.

Lol you just did GW marketing a favor, "Doubles as a personal protection device. Not only will it keep you from getting VD, you can use it as a blunt weapon, or to play a game."

Many people will just wait for the Starter kit to get the little book. On the other hand many will buy it. I will as I have no use for the DA and Chaos, and I like the fluff in the big book. I walso want to see the hobby section at the back.

Omegus wrote:
Now, if instead of a cheap plastic red button on the eye, they made the eye an actual laser pointer so you could check LOS, that I would pay money for.

I wouldn't. I learned my lesson with their previous little Tau Markerlight laser pointer for LoS. They're too cheap to put in anything powerful enough to be seen from more than 8-12" in a lit room.

Abyssel wrote:In terms of portable, most armies are borderline non portable and need multiple bulky cases, so your point is moot on that subject.

Everyone moaning and groaning about 6th ED rules, it is the same for every edition. You like the way the rules are and don't want them to change and everytime something new comes out that changes a lot of stuff you where previously in your comfy zone about, everyone gets in a tizzy. It happens to everything.

But if they didn't do this than the game would grow stagnant and it would be the same old stuff different day, where nothing is changed and everything is stale. What kind of world would this be if everything was stagnant. Boring.

For people complaining that the rules are not to THEIR liking and that are unwanted, you may not want them but others might.

I'm not for or against the rulebook, that's not the matter here, the issue becomes personal preference vs fresh and new.

I guess you don't play much chess, do you? Or Monopoly. Or poker, for that matter. Because those games (among thousands of others) haven't changed rules in, oh, forever, so they must be "stagnant" and it must be "the same old stuff different day, where nothing is changed and everything is stale." Oh, wait a minute. People are still playing those games every day.

What you and those who think like you are really saying is, "I've played this game for a while and now I'm bored with what I bought and I want a new game." Well, there are a whole lot of people who are just fine with the game they bought, just like they're just fine with chess, Monopoly, poker and thousands of other games just as they bought them.

It's got nothing to do with "stale" vs "fresh", and everything to do with stampeding GW true believers into shelling out big bucks every few years on what is essentially a new game, either because it's "fresh" or because they feel the need to "protect their investment" by jumping on the new bandwagon rather than staying with the existing game with other like-minded players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:

Abyssel wrote:In terms of portable, most armies are borderline non portable and need multiple bulky cases, so your point is moot on that subject.

Everyone moaning and groaning about 6th ED rules, it is the same for every edition. You like the way the rules are and don't want them to change and everytime something new comes out that changes a lot of stuff you where previously in your comfy zone about, everyone gets in a tizzy. It happens to everything.

But if they didn't do this than the game would grow stagnant and it would be the same old stuff different day, where nothing is changed and everything is stale. What kind of world would this be if everything was stagnant. Boring.

For people complaining that the rules are not to THEIR liking and that are unwanted, you may not want them but others might.

I'm not for or against the rulebook, that's not the matter here, the issue becomes personal preference vs fresh and new.

I'm not sure why you're waving the GW banner here, when there aren't that many people moaning and groaning about 6th. If anything, people are ready for something fresh, since the 5th edition scene has gotten a bit stale (GK, GK, SW, GK, GK, SW, IG, GK, GK, GK).

The problem isn't 5th edition per se, it's the idiotic codices spewed out by Him-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named (and others, all approved by faceless GW suits). Instead of trashing the entire rulebook, the intelligent answer would have been to fix the broken codices. But that's asking too much, it seems.

I'll show up to the FLGS when the big book comes out. I will sit around listening to everyone discuss.

I'll ask a few questions.

When everything dies down and all the children are picked up by their mothers I will pick up the standard "STORE COPY"!

Then I'll call my friend in Georgia who will basically read me the whole thing over the phone.

Then I'll go online and read all the comments and complaints.

Then the starter set will come out. Neither army is useful to me so I will pitch in on one with 2 people who need them.

Though I will have to wait a month or 2 for my set of rules to be in my hands, it won't bother me.

I played maybe 5 games in 5th Edition. I can wait a little longer.

Platuan4th wrote:

Omegus wrote:
Now, if instead of a cheap plastic red button on the eye, they made the eye an actual laser pointer so you could check LOS, that I would pay money for.

I wouldn't. I learned my lesson with their previous little Tau Markerlight laser pointer for LoS. They're too cheap to put in anything powerful enough to be seen from more than 8-12" in a lit room.

Well, of course it's cheap. Just like their tape measures, and their dice, and their templates, and that fruity little gamer bag.

I'm saying I would pay say $40 for a quality tape measure with a quality laser pointer, built into a servo-skull enclosure. I mean, both of those items can be purchased for less than $10 total at your local Home Depot, so they'd still make a boatload of profit.

They are just stupid (or rather, smart enough to realize most of their customers are stupid/impressionable and impulsive).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:I guess you don't play much chess, do you? Or Monopoly. Or poker, for that matter. Because those games (among thousands of others) haven't changed rules in, oh, forever, so they must be "stagnant" and it must be "the same old stuff different day, where nothing is changed and everything is stale." Oh, wait a minute. People are still playing those games every day.

Last time I checked, there are a slew of variations on poker. Same thing for chess.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Davor wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:After googleing "Skylander" I really don't see your point. Those are clearly Toys.

See, I find it extremely annoying to play against someone who doesn't have the rule book or make an effort to know the rules. Asking to look up something in mine mid-game drives me nuts.

Then why complain about the price?

Please show me where I complained about the price?

I know it's a toy, but so is GW. They are plastic TOY soldiers. Yes it's a hobby. It's an expensive hobby. I complain about the prices as well but accept it. It's either accept it or get out. I just find it funny when people keep complaining about the price but are still in the hobby.

But you must still acknowledge the vast difference in a model kit made to be customizable and detailed as opposed to toys like those.

I agree, someone who doesn't have the book and REFUSES to buy the boo and the keeps asking to "look something up in mid game" or even "out of game" really bugs me. It's one thing not having the money now but will get it later, but it's another thing to refuse to buy it and still wanting to look at it.

Exactly. My favorite is asking questions on the forums to get some rules that way. lol

I wasn't saying you were complaining about the price. I was really agreeing with you about people not buying the rule book but keep asking questions. I was talking about price from previous posts, and didn't explain myself again. Sorry once again.

I will acknowledge the difference about a model kit made to be customizable and detaile as opposed to toys, but if you look at most people, like say my parents, (I am 43) they would say they are ALL toys if my mom was still alive LOL.

*EDIT*

Missed the "not" in the title.

Omegus wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:I guess you don't play much chess, do you? Or Monopoly. Or poker, for that matter. Because those games (among thousands of others) haven't changed rules in, oh, forever, so they must be "stagnant" and it must be "the same old stuff different day, where nothing is changed and everything is stale." Oh, wait a minute. People are still playing those games every day.

Last time I checked, there are a slew of variations on poker. Same thing for chess.

First off, I was referring to poker as in 5-card draw, the rules of which haven't changed. But if you count all the games that can be played with a 52-card poker deck, then it's analogous to various missions played in 40K, although the analogy doesn't go too far since you have far more possible variety in games in 40K than with all the current poker-type card games playable with a 52-card deck put together.

Second, none of the poker-type games has been put forward as a replacement for the games people were already playing. They were additional games that you can play with the same deck.

As for chess, I don't know what variations on the rules of chess you're referring to, but again it would be the same situation: alternative games played in addition to traditional chess as it's been played for centuries, not replacements for earlier games.

If card manufacturers were trying to replace the 52-card deck with, say, a 56-card deck, and demanding that everyone buy those new decks and play them according to new rules that value hands differently and change how cards are drawn, that would be analogous to GW imposing new editions.

So again, I maintain that there is no need for new editions other than GW's need to keep the money flowing, and they could make as much money by other means such as producing supplemental campaign books and additional models rather than replacements.

I won't be buying the new BGB - the current prices are ridiculous. I'll just find an alternative, like purchasing the smaller version from Ebay. However, I must have that laspack dice tin. It calls to me with a siren song of fanboy lust and retail gratification.
If by some absurd chance I have enough money/have a fit of insanity, I'll likely be getting the Gamers edition for that sexy leather bag with those pouches for the laspack tins.

My club is buying it for the club library (to assist the three players in the club who still play 40k - all of whom will buy the book themselves?)

I'll just read it once it's there. I'm not even going to get the minibook and the rest of the starter is also not of any interest to me.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:So again, I maintain that there is no need for new editions other than GW's need to keep the money flowing, and they could make as much money by other means such as producing supplemental campaign books and additional models rather than replacements.

QFT. Jake Thornton (former GW studio writer, and contributor to the rulebooks for Warhammer Fantasy Battle 6th, Mordheim and Blood Bowl, now writing the excellent Project Pandora for Mantic) had the following to say on his blog (http://quirkworthy.com/).

The problem with GW games is that there is a top-down drive for a new edition every so often, and this has nothing to do with whether the game needs changing or not from the viewpoint of the game itself. Warhammer could be the most perfect game in the world and it would still get new editions every so often. That’s just GW’s business model.

When I am so bored with 5th edition I've stopped playing but still build models, I'd say a new edition is justified.

They ARE a business though.I don't mind a shake-up every 4-5 years. The cost of the basic rules isn't what makes the game expensive. At $75 it's about $17 a year to know the rules to the game you play. I've played against people that I'd pay that for them to know them better....lol

Waiting for the mini-book via ebay...

What put me off the Big 'Ole Rulebook was that for the same price I can get myself a comfortable start on Bushido with some change left over, or 3 units of dystopian wars models with even more change left over (1 ika and 2 units of gunships, if anyone is wondering...)

LordOfTheSloths wrote:So again, I maintain that there is no need for new editions other than GW's need to keep the money flowing, and they could make as much money by other means such as producing supplemental campaign books and additional models rather than replacements.

So you're maintaining the idea that a company wants to keep money flowing?

Why, I never.

Lord - you can still play 5th edition if you want. Nothing stopping you.

People who enjoy a new challenge with the game-built-to-sell-models (odd how people forget that bit...) will buy the new edition.

Everybody knows the "fancy leather bag' is just leatherette, right? "Leatherette" is usually another word for "cheap vinyl with a leather print".

Is everyone on here physically deficient in some way. You won't buy the bbb because its to heavy to carry.
And some are willing to pay because of the cheap vinyl bag and Las pack tin.

I'm getting 6th because from what I've researched its a vast improvement on 5th. But I think I'll recuperate some of my money selling the 'tat' that comes with it on eBay.