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Aprion wrote:But they would never be allies, no way! shows to me a fundemental lack of creativity.

This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of the fluff. Fine if you just want to handwave it and say 'they're allies, all right?', but there's literally no basis in the fluff for it happening. So justifying it with fluff shows a lack of knowledge of said fluff. If Tyranids wanted that biomasses help, it would kill it, recycle it, and make something better out of it.

Baronyu wrote:If it's only amongst friends then, why be a rule-lawyer? It's not gonna ruin the game, is it? At most, I'd have my friend explain why x army would cooperate with the nids, essentially asking him/her to talk the ally he/she chose to be battle-brothers, if he/she failed, then it has to use the bad alliance rule.

Unless you mean a friendly game with a stranger, then..hmm... I'd ask for an explanation as to why that alliance would happen, if he/she says "because GK are cool", then no, if he/she has the humour to make up something funny and interesting, then go ahead, it can't hurt. This but a game for fun, not a game where you either win or you die.

In short, yes, but requires some homebrew lore from the nids player, but more I'll be more lenient for a friend.

From experience (not 40k, but P&P) I can tell that not going by the rules will open up a can of worms and might even costs you a friend. If someone playing tyranids asks to skip on the rules to get allies, how do you justify orks not skipping on the rules, too? Or Space Wolves? Or Grey Knights?

Thus, even for friendly games, if it's not in the rules, then no. I doubt that allies are going to be as powerful as everybody claims. They still count towards your point totals.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Tyranids wouldn't ally with anyone.

Harlequins would never fight alongside Slaaneshi Daemons, yet the allies rules allow that.

So, again, what's the justification that Tyranids can't if the above example can?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Tyranids wouldn't ally with anyone.

Harlequins would never fight alongside Slaaneshi Daemons, yet the allies rules allow that.

So, again, what's the justification that Tyranids can't if the above example can?

The Harlequins aren't allied with the Slaaneshi Daemons, they're simply fighting the same foe.

Really. The sky isn't falling here, we still don't know the exacting particulars of the details as to how things will work.

god no.

For $#(*&%$ sake, you are getting a MASSIVE monstrous creature buff, quit whining.

Jidmah wrote:From experience (not 40k, but P&P) I can tell that not going by the rules will open up a can of worms and might even costs you a friend. If someone playing tyranids asks to skip on the rules to get allies, how do you justify orks not skipping on the rules, too? Or Space Wolves? Or Grey Knights?

There's an easy solution to that. Instead of thinking it as skipping a Tyranid rule think of it as expanding the allies rule for all races.

Until I read my 6E rulebook with my own eyes, I'm reserving all judgment and opinion on Allies until then.

I'm quite happy that orks don't get to pick BA as allies and necrons don't get to hide AV13 spam under a KFF.
I'm also quite happy that the most other ridiculous combinations get "Don't press dat" if they are too close or simply can't benefit from the rules of the other army.

Despite the sky obviously falling, GW seems to have put at least some thought into it, and has pulled most overpowerd doubles combinations from the allies system. The only thing I'm slightly doubtful of is the IG being best buddies with most marines (balance-wise, not fluff-wise).

Sure, tyranids get shafted by the fluff, but it's not like you are missing out on the most fun thing ever. At 2000+ points you could just field two armies anyways - with no drawback whatsoever.

-Loki- wrote:

Aprion wrote:But they would never be allies, no way! shows to me a fundemental lack of creativity.

This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of the fluff. Fine if you just want to handwave it and say 'they're allies, all right?', but there's literally no basis in the fluff for it happening. So justifying it with fluff shows a lack of knowledge of said fluff. If Tyranids wanted that biomasses help, it would kill it, recycle it, and make something better out of it.

Actually I know my fluff pretty well, and nice how you cut away the examples I gave of how it might possibly work. And lets totally ignore ohhh i dunno.. Genestealer Cults.

What about this for fluff for Nidallies

An Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos/Lord of Change/Tzeentch Sorceror/DE Haemonculous was able to use Blanks/Warp Manipulation/Deranged Surgery to sever a section of the Hive from the Hive Mind and use a Psychic Beacon to controll them, effectively making your Chapter Master/Company Commander/Inqiuisitor/Archon/Lord of Changer/Chaos Lprd a new Hive Mind.

Maybe the Nids can't have allies because GW has bigger plans.

Maybe a new Tyranid Codex would include Genestealer Cults?

They already have a broodlord, now just ad a matriarch/patriarch HQ and a new troop type.

For all the Squat hate I hear I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Genestealer Cults.

It could also make GWsome more money.

A new HQ kit with a few finecast options and a plastic hybrid kit. Heck maybe a few finecast kits of hybrids with special/heavy weapons.

Maybe even a collectors kit that has a hybrid model for each race!

Lol Ork, Tau, Human, Eldar... I thinkit'd be pretty cool.

Oh and LIMOS! Plastic limo sets! My Orks would be pimpin' in those rides!

Personally I could see at least orks and daemons being "desperate" allies with nidz. Desperate as in "they accidently happen to be killing the same enemy and don't mind". You can always kill each other afterwards.

Kanluwen wrote:The Harlequins aren't allied with the Slaaneshi Daemons, they're simply fighting the same foe.

The [insert literally anything here] aren't allied with the [insert literally anything else here]. They're simply fighting the same foe.

My point, Kan, is that these ally lists are arbitrary, in some cases contradictory (BTs/Eldar vs BTs/Sisters), and in some cases utterly fluff breaking (Slaanesh/Any Eldar) and that there is no good reason why the justification you used above cannot be applied to the Tyranids.

I fully agree that the Tyranids would never ally with anyone. They even eat their own Genestealer Cults. Hell, they eat themselves when the invasion is over. Tyranids do not see life in quite the same way as anyone else. They would not ally with anyone, ever. But neither would Daemons/Eldar. And Sisters and BTs should get on like a house on fire (and occasionally be the ones starting that fire), not at arms length whilst Eldrad and Helbrect do jelly-shots off a Howling Banshees stomach like a couple of hooting frat boys.

Allies =/= Stupid
GW's ally table = Stupid

There's a difference.

As far as I'm concerned, Tyranids are Unholy Alliances with Orks and Daemons.

Any other army the player wanted to ally with would mean that he's playing the list to win, not for any fluffy reasons.

And that's when I take out my Farseer.

So, is it just my imagination,nor does the chart imply nids may ally with themselves? 3 hive tyrants? Extra carnifexes? Hmmmm...

In 2k points plus games, the FOC chart doubles.

Chances are that if Tyranids were allowed to ally with themselves, it would be the "arms length/unholy alliance" style ally.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:So, is it just my imagination,nor does the chart imply nids may ally with themselves? 3 hive tyrants? Extra carnifexes? Hmmmm...

The chart from the real books says no allying with yourself. It's in the rumor thread and probably every ally thread now.

I would and have. In my gaming circle we use allies in 5th because it is the only way we can muster up an army big enough to play a fun game.

Baronyu wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Baronyu wrote:If it's only amongst friends then, why be a rule-lawyer?

When and how did not allowing something expressly disallowed in the rules become rules lawyering?

Well, all I meant is just that why be so serious if you're playing with your friends? I mean, is it gonna hurt? Like I said, if it really bothers you, make them give you an explanation, should they fail that either say no to alliance or have them use the bad alliance rules.

That doesn't make it any less disingenuous to use the phrase "rules-lawyer" when the rules are clear-cut (even if, as is the case here, the rationale behind them is anything but). In this instance, however, since the allies rules have thrown fluffiness out of the window (and what game balance there was), go ahead, play Tyranids with Marines or Necrons as allies if you want; it'll be no less true to the fluff than allying Space Marines and Dark Eldar or Eldar and Sisters of Battle, and no more deleterious to game balance than random psychic powers and warlord abilities.

Kurgash wrote:Any gaming group that openly allows allies to happen needs to be clubbed in the face with an angry cat.

Funny mental image but it is off base. It is their gaming club if they want to they are allowed to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Any gaming group that openly allows allies to happen needs to be clubbed in the face with an angry cat.

If we were to use that logic, we can extend it to any rule in the rulebook.

That seems difficult. How would you keep it from scratching you when you pick it up?

TheAngrySquig he is only worried about the important parts of the argument.

Seriously though, he brings up a good point.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Allies =/= Stupid
GW's ally table = Stupid

There's a difference.

I think what you mean is GW did something therefor it must be bad. That seems to be your normal attitiude to everything they do.

The point is not that an Ork warboss sits at a table with a Commisar and says "so, we agree to fight together for a single cause. Here are my terms" but that two forces happen to have a commen aim. For example, if Eldar found out that an Ork warband was going to rise up to be a waaagh that would distroy a craftworld but they did not have the time to get a force to the area, but they found a band of chaos cultists were launching an attack on the Orks at some point but without support they would be overrun. Would the eldar sit buy and say "nope. Not helping the worshipers on Chaos"? No, they would use the situation.

The point is not that they are friends, but that they will not attack on sight. At the other extream is GK who if they were fighting Orks and some CSM turned up and started attacking the Orks they would not way, for any reason at all, well it is usefull to us. Killing the CSM is more important than anything.

For nids it is that they will attack anything without thought. They will never say "they may be our enemy, but other matters are more pressing". They have one thought. Eat.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:No. There is no reason anyone would ally with the galaxy's great devourer. Plus, how would one go about diplomacy with a race with no known language?

You could make the same argument about several of these new "ally" match ups. What makes Tyranids so different?

Tyranids wouldn't ally with anyone. They would just hold off one while eating the other. How can you make a deal with someone whose communication is strictly psychic and biochemical?

Speaking of screwy alliances, I think the Dark Angels and Space Wolves should have been taken down a notch. They haven't liked each other for over a thousand years. Why, all of a sudden, are they battle brothers?

Hey everytime the local SW player and i are on the same side we have the prematch duel between Belial and Logan. (Hint Belial is up 3-1)

Maybe the reason that 'nids can't ally with other people is not to stop 'nids getting the advantages of other armies; it's to stop other armies getting the upcoming advantages of 'nids.

I agree that, fluff-wise, it's entirely reasonable to come up with an argument to ally 'nids with another army. Either recreate mind-slaves or use a hybrid cult as a go-between. Either story is consistent with the allied race ultimately becoming 'nid food, but being under the control of the hive mind for a period.

I reckon they're in for a real buff.

Steve steveson wrote:I think what you mean is GW did something therefor it must be bad. That seems to be your normal attitiude to everything they do.

To the man.

Steve steveson wrote:

The point is not that an Ork warboss sits at a table with a Commisar and says "so, we agree to fight together for a single cause. Here are my terms" but that two forces happen to have a commen aim. For example, if Eldar found out that an Ork warband was going to rise up to be a waaagh that would distroy a craftworld but they did not have the time to get a force to the area, but they found a band of chaos cultists were launching an attack on the Orks at some point but without support they would be overrun. Would the eldar sit buy and say "nope. Not helping the worshipers on Chaos"? No, they would use the situation.

*at a games workshop* "what why, did you bring the attachment of grey knights with your tyranids army?"
"well it's simply a friendly game, so I figured that these grey knights represent a deatchment that has been a long battle with your orks when my hive fleet makes planetfall. The swarmlord, looking at this situation, deems that the grey knights are hardly a threat to the hive's invasion when compared to your orks. and the grey knights, having fought desperately to escape this planet after a daemonic invasion has been quelled, are confused at best, but are at least thankful the tyranids haven't seemed to notice them. They are highly susicpicious however, so I am going to play them as unholy alliance."
"I'm sorry man, but even fluff-wise, that just doesn't make sense"

*later that day*

"I see you brought some harlequins along with your slaaneshi cultist list. don't the harlequins hate those guys?"
"oh it's okay, they needed to take out your dark eldar force because it was threatening their craftworld, and they found out these cultists were attacking them, so they decided to go along with the flow to accomplish their goal"
"oh, I guess I see that"

I am not arguing with the rules here, but purely fluff wise, the fact that one can make sense and the other seems "way too far from canon" creates a double standard

Steve steveson wrote:For nids it is that they will attack anything without thought. They will never say "they may be our enemy, but other matters are more pressing". They have one thought. Eat.

I don't think the swarmlord is thinking just "eat" when he continuously outmaneuvered Calgar and the ultramarines and even beat Calgar in combat.

The Tyranids don't have one thought; they have one goal

SCvodimier gets it.

I could see a pseudo-alliance with Necrons, if only because Necrons have nothing biological to eat, so the nids might just ignore them and attack the squishier, tasty foes. Fluff-wise, they aren't allying, just not fighting each other.
Taking some inspiration from Starcraft, I could see an argument for certain other armies as something resembling the infested terrans in Starcraft - maybe they've captured them but haven't had time to fully work their DNA into their own forms yet, so they're just using the originals temporarily, albeit controlled in some manner, until they can fully absorb their traits (or however it works, I need to read my 'nid dex a bit more).

Ok, now we have the new rules, and see that Tyranids didn't get much of a buff, compared to other armies, do you think now that Tyranids got shafted for not having allies?

Davor wrote:Ok, now we have the new rules, and see that Tyranids didn't get much of a buff, compared to other armies, do you think now that Tyranids got shafted for not having allies?

What you talkin' bout Willis.

>Reroll one or more of the dice when running while fleet
>Reroll one or more of the charge dice when running while fleet (So, reliably 18+ as the threat range for Hormagaunts).
>Psychic powers. Holy God, psychic powers. Broodlords that Gate of Infinity to you, that smite you, that endurance their squad, that gain X toughness and strength or X attacks and initiative. Zoanthropes that huck FNP, IWND, and relentless on squads of hormas/warriors (IWND)/gaunts/Carnifexes (IWND again), Swarmlord gate of infinity with tyrant guard... So much pain there. Its not reliable, but you always get two rolls on the random table with Zoeys or the broodlord (two powers each, choose both from the book, win). If you don't get the one you want first time around, choose the primaris power.
>Beasts move 12" in the movement phase, reroll to fleet, and reroll charge range. Christ, that makes Raveners scary.
>Being one of the only three armies that can hamper enemy blessings at some range. Yeah, its only 12" but when you move as fast as I've listed above... you don't need a huge range to SiTW.

There's more to boot. Nids wouldn't ally, the can't ally, and if you're trying to rationalize them allying with another army you haven't read enough fluff.