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yakface wrote:
But of course the rules don't actually say this. They say that the unit which must start in reserve is ignored and that a transport and its contents are counted as a single unit as well.

We should leave it at that.

So what do we have when we have a flyer with an embarked unit in reserve? You have two units, one of which is explicitly ignored and the other which is not. If the transported unit and the transport are both considered a single choice the why are you assuming you use the transports 'ignore this unit for counting' status and not the embarked units explicit need to be counted?

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

Not sure why you say one is explicitley ignored and the other is not. The term 'and' is a logical conjunction that can be true if and only if both operands are true. "A unit (Necron Warriors) and its Dedicated transport (Night Scythe) are acounted as a single unit for these purposes."

The sentence on page 124 in BRB under Reserves overides unit and their dedicated transport being considered seperate for the purposes of determining how many units are in reserves. If GW wants to make it blatantly clear that this sentence only applies to deep strike transports, then they would have mentioned it there. However, deep striking transports aren't the only vehicles that are forced to come in from reserves. Flyers must also begin the game in reserves.

SabrX wrote:

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

All this means is that you count them as one when running the numbers to see how many can. In the case of a flying transport this is redundant but they hd to put this clause in for armies that field normal transports such as rhinos.The rules are permissive and in the case of deep striking it specifically gives you permission to ignore the embarked unit. No where i the rules allowing you to exclude fliers from the equation does it allow you to exclude a transported unit. To me this means the rules allow you to start half of your units to start in reserve but all dedicated NS.

By your interpretation you could bring one lord and reserve him as well for an auto loss.

SabrX wrote:

yakface wrote:
But of course the rules don't actually say this. They say that the unit which must start in reserve is ignored and that a transport and its contents are counted as a single unit as well.

We should leave it at that.

So what do we have when we have a flyer with an embarked unit in reserve? You have two units, one of which is explicitly ignored and the other which is not. If the transported unit and the transport are both considered a single choice the why are you assuming you use the transports 'ignore this unit for counting' status and not the embarked units explicit need to be counted?

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

Not sure why you say one is explicitley ignored and the other is not. The term 'and' is a logical conjunction that can be true if and only if both operands are true. "A unit (Necron Warriors) and its Dedicated transport (Night Scythe) are acounted as a single unit for these purposes."

The sentence on page 124 in BRB under Reserves overides unit and their dedicated transport being considered seperate for the purposes of determining how many units are in reserves. If GW wants to make it blatantly clear that this sentence only applies to deep strike transports, then they would have mentioned it there. However, deep striking transports aren't the only vehicles that are forced to come in from reserves. Flyers must also begin the game in reserves.

OK, last response really and truly I promise.

Having a transport and its contents count as a single unit is not the same thing as having the transport and its content both ignored. Those are two very, very different concepts.

The two rules on page 124 are not there specifically to cover transports that must start in reserve, but are there to cover ALL transports (except for those that must arrive via Deep Strike which have their own more specific rule).

So let's say you have a Dark Eldar army with a bomber and a Raider that has an embarked unit. The first reserves rule on pg 124 just tells you that your bomber doesn't count towards the number of units that have to start on the table. The second rule tells you that your Raider and embarked unit count as only one unit.

That is the point of those two rules...they cover two different situations. The second rule is not a proviso to the first one.

So are Night Scythes ignored for the purposes of calculating how many units must deploy on the table? Yes.
Are their embarked units and the Night Scythe together counted as only a single unit for the purposes of calculating how many units must deploy on the table? Yes.
But is there any rule stating that the embarked unit is ignored along with its transport? No there isn't. Just because the two units are counted as one, does not mean the unit inside loses its requirement to be counted.

This is distinctly contrasted by the Deep Striking rules which actually SAY that the embarked unit is ignored along with its transport.


Anyway, feel free to rebut, but if I feel the need to respond to that, I'll go start a thread in YMDC.



---


Oh and about the battle itself, do you guys think if you had driven forward the first turn 6", dumped the Grey Knights out and then in the 2nd turn spread the force out to cover as much table as possible you would have both limited the damage that the Death Rays could do AND really limit where the Scythes could effectively move?

It seems like with those giant flyer bases you can actually force flyers to move into bad positions this way by spreading out and covering a lot of table space. It did look like you were trying to do just that mid-game but I'm wondering if you thought in hindsight that starting to spread out earlier would have produced a better result for the GK?

Again I think yak has the rule correct. I really don't understand how this gets confused by people. The NS is the ONLY dedicated flying transport, and yes there is redundancy in certain lists do to that as you are essentially only counting the flier restriction as the transport rule becomes redundant.

As far as your strategy yak, I have thought over that strategy myself. you have plenty of time plus the new rules actually make all vehicles faster. move 6, rotate, disembark and spread out six, move every one again in the shooting phase. You essentially can cover half the table easily due to the fact those bases are huge and its even worse needing to stay >1" from enemies. then just move the relic between your own units to your edge. Ironically Crowe sucks because of the slay the warlord VP now as he isn't an IC so I think cheap inquisitor war lords will be taken lol. Otherwise line breaker would have been a wash, possibly warlord, so he would have given up first blood but taken the relic for the win.

BTW a quad gun fired by Crowe to intercept first blood would have been epic.

I guess the big downside to spreading out massively is that now the Tesla arcs get a chance to hit like every unit you have practically.

But I suppose you have to pick your poison in this case and it seems like doing the full-on spread is the way to go.

yakface wrote:Anyway, feel free to rebut, but if I feel the need to respond to that, I'll go start a thread in YMDC.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462965.page

Tried several posts back to avoid the derailment here...


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yakface wrote:
I guess the big downside to spreading out massively is that now the Tesla arcs get a chance to hit like every unit you have practically.

But I suppose you have to pick your poison in this case and it seems like doing the full-on spread is the way to go.

At least it's not as bad as packing your army into one large lump in the middle of the table like some of the pictures in this game

Spreading out will minimize it to 1-2 units being threatened per volley vs 4-6 when they are all clumped up.

Sure the rhinos aren't overly threatened much by the S5, but you drop the doom scythes in first and pop a couple rhinos to get more...conductive...bodies on the field. Then roll up with the tesla and watch the sparks fly.

To be fair though, it is difficult to manage spreading out to avoid the tesla and death rays and still keep most of your force effective for grabbing the single objective.

Here is my logic.

A flyer is a single unit, right? Even though it doesn't count towards the number of units used to determine how many units can be deployed, it is still a single unit, is it not?

Now we have:

0. "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

So we have a flyer, which is a single unit, but which does not count towards the total because it is ignored.


Then we have a flyer and its passengers, which is also a single unit. Question is, does it count towards the total?

I believe the answer lies in "for these purposes." What does that mean, for these purposes? I believe there are 2 interpretations:

As Yakface puts it:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'

However, as I've said before, this is only partially correct. Because that is only part of the rules for reserves.

This is my intepretation:

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so and that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

This is the full rule for Reserves. It is a 2-part rule - 1) half of the units can be deployed in reserves and 2) units that must start off in reserves are ignored.

There is a transitive property here. And it's this:

Dedicated transport and passengers = 1 unit. Transport cannot be deployed because it is a flyer. Passengers deployed in the transport counts as 1 unit also, but because that unit is ignored for the purposes of how many to be deployed, then passengers are ignored as well.


-----------------------------


Oops. Ninja'd by Maelstrom's YMDC thread. I'll post this over there.

Please respond in his YMDC thread posted above instead. Thanks.

Post-Game Analysis posted.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I hope you've enjoyed reading this battle report.

SabrX wrote:Post-Game Analysis posted.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I hope you've enjoyed reading this battle report.

Absolutely enjoyed it, thanks for posting it. I rarely read bat reports anymore unless it's from one of your crew.

Sabr-X I happen to agree quite wholeheartedly with your post-game analysis. I have only played a single game of 6th with my Necrons but I found that too many fliers can really cripple the army's resilience.

My own experience was with 6 fliers (3 Doom, 3 Night) and while they did inflict a ton of damage (the Doom Scythes especially), ultimately it's the boots on the ground who win you games and I just didn't have enough. I have now altered my list to give me a stronger backbone by taking out a Night Scythe and a couple of Crypteks who start embarked on Scythes.


A great report overall. I'm having a lot less time than usual to play thanks to the arrival of our first child so I appreciate these reps even more than I used to. Thanks for taking the time to add so much depth...it really helps with those adjusting to 6th (me included).

Pretty much the same lessons I took away from my purifiers vs a friend's necrons too. We both came to the same conclusions on how to improve the necrons i.e. some assault/foot units as well

Now my GK on the other hand feels like they should be at least decent but we're just discovering just how many nerfs they really got this edition. I'm not nearly as certain as JY2 in that I can use a similar list to the same degree of success but I am eager to hear his future battle reports on this.

On the flip side, I did pick up some tips as well including having crowe man the quad cannon would be a nice spot to hide the guy and be useful. Someone else also mentioned that you can disembark, then shoot, then have the vehicle "flat out" during the shooting phase to block LOS to said GK now on foot. Vehicle gets blown up and then you can charge next turn. Unfortunately this probably won't work against fliers. (I'm gonna update the GK discussion thread in tactics with some of these tid bits)

The discussion on moving past 1/2 way could help to reduce the amount of fire you end up taking I am interested in trying out in the future.

Also kind of interested in hearing your guys's thoughts on alot more incinerator use and dedicate more shooting to say an allied force or maybe some henchmen monkies in the back?

Cant flat out move on the same turn you embark/disembark. Also IMO Grey Knights got relative nerfs more so than actually nerfed. They are still a powerful army, they are just not as over powering as before.

You guys were the kid with the super soaker that unloaded 1/2 a gallon in a shot. Now its down to a pint


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flyers are good, however I would say most of them will miss out on shooting from either being in reserve or going off the table/forced movement removing their shots. So having a large portion of your army only firing sometimes is risky.

Also anyone who can get in your deployment zone first turn is going to be a problem. Auto lose turn one is a nice little addition

Not convinced by YakFace's arguement. But I don't get cauht up in these sort of arguements any longer.

As for anti-flyer strategy, getting into the enemies deployment zone really limits the number of shots that the enemy is capable of delivering with the flyers. Their lack of manuverability means that you fly on, get a single shot, then have to fly off again. Meaning that at you'll get at most 3 turns of firing per flyer. Not really stellar in this situation. However, the way likely to achieve this is an all/mostly deep strike army. But the key takeaway is that spreading out in your own deployment zone gives the ideal situation, while in their deployment zone, it's very difficult on the flyers.

Leth wrote:Cant flat out move on the same turn you embark/disembark. Also IMO Grey Knights got relative nerfs more so than actually nerfed. They are still a powerful army, they are just not as over powering as before.

You guys were the kid with the super soaker that unloaded 1/2 a gallon in a shot. Now its down to a pint


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flyers are good, however I would say most of them will miss out on shooting from either being in reserve or going off the table/forced movement removing their shots. So having a large portion of your army only firing sometimes is risky.

Also anyone who can get in your deployment zone first turn is going to be a problem. Auto lose turn one is a nice little addition

actually you are allowed to flat out provided you did not move the vehicle prior to the unit disembarking. Page 79 and 78.You are prohibited from ramming or tank shocking but you can still flat out as you get to move normally there after and there is no preventing flat out moves.

Page 72 also describes Flat out in the top box and again you are not prohibited.

Seems my fears are coming true, the horrible transportspam parkinglots of 5:ed will become swapped for flyerspam in 6:ed.
Thanks GW...

Pyriel- wrote:Seems my fears are coming true, the horrible transportspam parkinglots of 5:ed will become swapped for flyerspam in 6:ed.
Thanks GW...

I think that isn't a likely scenario for a number of reasons. First off, it presumes that GW will rule on the positive side of allowing (nearly) all flyer armies in reserve. They could just as easily rule the other way which would mean that several more units would have to start on the table which would definitely limit this army style a tad bit.

In addition, right now and this moment, flyers are at the absolute pinnacle of their power. Only one codex unit was given Skyfire (Hydras) and of course fortification emplaced guns. Several armies still don't have natural (non-allied) access to flyers which are naturally counters to other flyers.

So at this magical moment in time, flyers are the bomb (pun intended) and likely flyer models are flying off the shelves (again, pun intended).

However, that means with each and every codex GW releases, the amount of things in the game that can counter flyers an only possibly increase. When the CSM codex comes out even if they just get an official flyer then that alone helps to increase balance across the system a bit, and if they get ANY units that can take skyfire for an effective cost, then all of a sudden the overall worth of flyers drops a bit because now you have another 'rock' out there that beats your 'scissors'. And if GW doesn't do either of those things with the new CSM codex, then nothing has changed and flyers haven't gotten any 'better' (things just stayed status quo).

But we've seen the rulebook we know that flakk missiles exist in GW's psyche and that means somebody is going to get them and there probably will be one or more codexes that also have dedicated special anti-air rules as well. All it really takes is ONE codex that has some broken crazy anti-flyer units and it will totally shift the tournament meta-game exactly how the combo of Dark Eldar poison weapons and Grey Knight insta-death meant the end of Tyranid armies as a mainstay on the circuit.

So IMHO, anyone investing in a flyer-heavy army should be going into it knowing that in 1-3 years there's a decent chance that competitively these units will turn into a big gamble instead of a sure thing.

Because unlike the general vehicle rules in 5th edition, flyer rules are completely and utterly dependent on the lack of skyfire to make them powerful. As soon as anything starts slipping into the game that has skyfire and is also generally effective at doing other things (like Missile launchers with flakk missiles, for example), all of sudden flyers will become a huge gamble in any take call comers scenario where you may or may not face armies that are designed to obliterate your flyers.

I know I'm probably crazy but why didn't you deepstrike your Strikes and at least attempt to blast the overlord off the table? Since it's an all flyer list and you don't have worry about any crazy CC units eating the Strikes you might as well give it a shot.

Outside of that I say enjoy the style of list. I don't think it'll last more than a year but it'll be kinda fun.

yakface wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:Seems my fears are coming true, the horrible transportspam parkinglots of 5:ed will become swapped for flyerspam in 6:ed.
Thanks GW...

I think that isn't a likely scenario for a number of reasons. First off, it presumes that GW will rule on the positive side of allowing (nearly) all flyer armies in reserve. They could just as easily rule the other way which would mean that several more units would have to start on the table which would definitely limit this army style a tad bit.

In addition, right now and this moment, flyers are at the absolute pinnacle of their power. Only one codex unit was given Skyfire (Hydras) and of course fortification emplaced guns. Several armies still don't have natural (non-allied) access to flyers which are naturally counters to other flyers.

So at this magical moment in time, flyers are the bomb (pun intended) and likely flyer models are flying off the shelves (again, pun intended).

However, that means with each and every codex GW releases, the amount of things in the game that can counter flyers an only possibly increase. When the CSM codex comes out even if they just get an official flyer then that alone helps to increase balance across the system a bit, and if they get ANY units that can take skyfire for an effective cost, then all of a sudden the overall worth of flyers drops a bit because now you have another 'rock' out there that beats your 'scissors'. And if GW doesn't do either of those things with the new CSM codex, then nothing has changed and flyers haven't gotten any 'better' (things just stayed status quo).

Definitely sounds like a GW marketing strategy. It was no coincidence that before 6th ed release, Storm Raven price increase by 20% a few months ago. Scratch one for marketing. As people buy more flyers, GW will switch to creating new units to help counter them. Scratch two for marketing.

And let's face it, balance isn't GW's main goal. They've been known to upset sub-groups of the community through nerfs and creating an imbalance. GK codex extreme prejudice towards Daemons is an example (though with the new ally rules, it gives Daemon players alternatives). Nerfs to GK in 6th ed (Unusual Force Weapons being AP3 now) and white dwarf codex Sisters of Battle are also great examples. Nid community can't ally, many faction's can't use 6th ed BRB rule book, and huge nerfs to vehicles.

Speaking of vehicles, 5th ed they were the hottest thing. Now in 6th ed, flyers, hydra, and tank that lobs high strength low AP large blasts are popular. Infantry is the way to go. Another boost in sales, but this time infantry models. Scratch 3 for marketing.

I'm always amazed how people complain about weak units and how GW can't balance the game, but when they're buffed it's just a marketing scheme.

At the end of the day, I don't think GW's priority is competitive play, and balancing a game that has so many variables already is more difficult than most people give it credit.

I'd like to see this army tested on 'the relic'.

NecronLord3 wrote:I'd like to see this army tested on 'the relic'.

The mission was 'the relic'.

As you can see, they did quite well.

Because unlike the general vehicle rules in 5th edition, flyer rules are completely and utterly dependent on the lack of skyfire to make them powerful.

And some armies have zero acces to these flak missiles. GK for example dont get missile devastators.
Thus what GW is creating is an even worse situation of rock paper scissors then we previously had.

And about flyers being toned own, I dont know, remember, GW needs to sell models...

To me 6:ed seems far more fun for casual gaming but a utter disaster in competitive settings and when facing spamming power gamers. It just saps all fun out of the game.


Edit: spelling

Hulksmash wrote:I know I'm probably crazy but why didn't you deepstrike your Strikes and at least attempt to blast the overlord off the table? Since it's an all flyer list and you don't have worry about any crazy CC units eating the Strikes you might as well give it a shot.

Outside of that I say enjoy the style of list. I don't think it'll last more than a year but it'll be kinda fun.

Deepstriking means that they won't come in until at least Turn 2. By that time, the scythes should already be in. Besides, it's no guarantee that I will kill him even with my shooting, and if I should scatter, I may not even see him. Basically, the payoff wasn't worth the risk to leave them exposed.

What I want was for my most resilient unit to grab the relic, and that would be my 10-man squad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ricter wrote:I'm always amazed how people complain about weak units and how GW can't balance the game, but when they're buffed it's just a marketing scheme.

At the end of the day, I don't think GW's priority is competitive play, and balancing a game that has so many variables already is more difficult than most people give it credit.

Honestly, I don't think they really gave much thought to game balance at all. You know when you allow some armies access to a lot of flyers and other armies almost no access to anti-flyer weaponry that the game won't be very balanced.

Also, allowing allies is just like opening up Pandora's Box insofar as balance is concerned. It seems like GW is trying to encourage variety in gameplay, but in actuality, they've encouraged unbalance as people gravitate towards the "power combos". I think we're going to see a step back towards the 2-3rd ed. builds of uber-character armies, only now it will be more uber-combo deathstar armies.

@Jy2

I just don't see the reason not to give it a shot. Here are my thoughts:

1) You had a 66% chance to come in before he did. Which would have given you a shooting phase to have a chance at an instant win.

2) While the odds weren't incredibly in your favor shooting wise they were worth it. Average rolls come out to 1 wounds from stormbolters and around 1 wound for the psycannons. Which means, while it's longer odds, it's possible.

3) By deepstriking that far back you stand an excellent chance of being outside of the firepower arc of the entering vehicles (or then would have to come in at an extreme angle)

For those 3 reasons I would have taken the risk. Add in that it is your most resilient unit and so may have been able survive to shift back. Plus with all those St5-7 shots they would have been in position and out of their transports to start picking on flyers on your opponents turn 2.

Not saying it's a guarentee but it's definitely something to consider. Especially because then they would have also been in position to pick off entire units of warriors that had to come on from reserve when their transports went down.

Just my two cents.

I can't get to him on Turn 1. If I deepstrike, the earliest I can get to him is T2. If I went first on T2 and wiped him out, so what? His flyers then will come in on the bottom of T2. And if he went first on T2, then he should get in 6 flyers on average. By then, who really cares about the lord.

Remember, it's only a loss if there are no models at the end of the Game turn.

BTW, unless I'm right up on his board edge, most likely some of his scythes will be able to get to my unit. And if I am right up at his board edge, then I am making an extremely risky deepstrike.

But more importantly, my strikers will be way out of position to make a play on the relic in the middle.

And all this is assuming they will come in on T2, which is no guarantee.

In short, the payoff is just not worth the risk. Killing his Overlord is a longshot and won't even win me the game even if I was successful (unless, by some miracle, none of his 9 flyers also come in from reserves that turn). And then my strikers will be exposed and extremely out of position relative to the objective....

Definitely sounds like a GW marketing strategy. It was no coincidence that before 6th ed release, Storm Raven price increase by 20% a few months ago. Scratch one for marketing. As people buy more flyers, GW will switch to creating new units to help counter them. Scratch two for marketing.

Ah c'mon Sabre, people predicted this months ago!
Same deal as the "scenary buff"., vehicle nerf, larger squads and psychic powers.

What wasnt selling? buff it
What was over bought/used? Release a new unit/rule list to sell more.
What new angle could sell more kits? (scenery/psychic powers!) .

Old news Im afraid, its got as you said, to do with marketing but also to do with a game system that had become stale as moldy bread.
Razor/FNP/Tank/Alpha strike/MC nerf/skimmer spam/AVXX?! in 5th?

zzzzzzzz Imho.

Mix it up? Yes GW have to be fair
Was marketing part of that mix up?
You bet 100%
Gotta make money!

And some armies have zero acces to these flak missiles. GK for example dont get missile devastators.
Thus what GW is creating is an even worse situation of rock paper scissors then we previously had.

Feels like it falls into the area of "well we've sold enough GK. They don't need much of anything anymore."

Not sure what we can do as GK honestly, besides aegis gun for low numbers of fliers or using allies with flakk.

sudojoe wrote:

And some armies have zero acces to these flak missiles. GK for example dont get missile devastators.
Thus what GW is creating is an even worse situation of rock paper scissors then we previously had.

Feels like it falls into the area of "well we've sold enough GK. They don't need much of anything anymore."

Not sure what we can do as GK honestly, besides aegis gun for low numbers of fliers or using allies with flakk.

Don't under-estimate the GK's. They've still got a damn lot of firepower.

It's just that in this game, I was shooting poorly.

BTW, that vendread was supposed to be a stormraven, but then I forgot to take the model with me. Thus, I subbed in the venerable.

BTW, that vendread was supposed to be a stormraven, but then I forgot to take the model with me. Thus, I subbed in the venerable.

ahh that would have made a big difference I think. What do you recommend for load outs Jy2?

so far I've been recommending AC+HB+hurricane bolters with psybolts as a dedicated anti-air hunter or for shooting infantry.

I've had mine with Lascannons and multi-melta for a long time for the AV13-14 targets back in 5th but I'm thinking of making the switch.

I'd say the AC and MM is a good choice. Add psybolt and hurricane and it gets a little expensive (50pts!) but if you have extra points, then go for it.