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I'm kind of confused, if you don't challenge the overlord, you still get to hit him with the other 2 purifiers right?

Is it just to stop the overlord from MSS'ing the halberd which may kill the squad?


This fight looked amazingly like my first test play with my purifiers vs the necron fliers too. Alot of painful lessons learned such as vehicle spacing and to not bothering trying to assault the overlords without a hammer somewhere. Also sucked that we rolled "purge the aliens - KP"

My purifiers just could not out shoot them and couldn't even out assault them which caused a complete revamp in my lists since 6th.

Just curious but did crowe fail his iron halo on his own rend or the warscythe?

You also get re-rolls for being in a challenge against a lone individual character when you have a unit of 5+ models .... That could be a further motivating factor.

DexKivuli wrote:You also get re-rolls for being in a challenge against a lone individual character when you have a unit of 5+ models .... That could be a further motivating factor.

ya I saw that but he's only got 3 man team, he won't get any benefits of rerolls. It's one of the problems with going MSU

sudojoe wrote:I'm kind of confused, if you don't challenge the overlord, you still get to hit him with the other 2 purifiers right?

Is it just to stop the overlord from MSS'ing the halberd which may kill the squad?

My plan was to lock him in place. If I hadn't challenged him, there was a chance that he could have wiped out the entire unit. He was just too hard to kill now that he gets his 2+ against my force weapons. Also, he was a scoring unit due to his Warlord trait. Imagine if he had got the Relic....I wouldn't have been able to make him drop it unless I had focussed my entire army on him and ignored the flyers.

This fight looked amazingly like my first test play with my purifiers vs the necron fliers too. Alot of painful lessons learned such as vehicle spacing and to not bothering trying to assault the overlords without a hammer somewhere. Also sucked that we rolled "purge the aliens - KP"

My purifiers just could not out shoot them and couldn't even out assault them which caused a complete revamp in my lists since 6th.

Just curious but did crowe fail his iron halo on his own rend or the warscythe?

Yeah, Crowe failed his 4++. I believe it was one of each. I wanted to suicide him to take out his scoring HQ.

In hindsight, I should have just Blade Parry.

My plan was to lock him in place. If I hadn't challenged him, there was a chance that he could have wiped out the entire unit. He was just too hard to kill now that he gets his 2+ against my force weapons. Also, he was a scoring unit due to his Warlord trait. Imagine if he had got the Relic....I wouldn't have been able to make him drop it unless I had focussed my entire army on him and ignored the flyers.

ah so it's more of a prevent a morale check? But purifiers are fearless, they won't break, the staff still gets the 2++ bbut you do stand to lose the other 2 models which really don't do that much. I guess if you lose your staff on the challenge, you'll still get another round with the overlord killing the other 2 members so I guess it works. Just that you are missing some 6 extra hits which may put him down too so I guess it's just a trade off for the safer bet.

I really should fill up on some night scythes and doom scythes methinks! This is one crazy battle

I have to say, i think I saw this one coming, parking lots just can't take the death ray, the fact it can hit multiple targets in a line, with STR 10 AP 1, is just murder on rhino/razorspam, auto-glancing, and then 5/6 chance of a penetrating hit, and a 1/3 chance of exploding?

Parking lots just play right into the hand of this Necron build. Granted, being more spread out may have helped matters some. (ex not getting all the psyrifle dreads blown away in a turn.)

Did mister turtle go in the rhino at one point? I am pretty sure you drop the relic if you try to go in a transport.

Loving the battle reports so far. Trying to work in Anti-Flyer stuff into my lists now.

Leth wrote:Did mister turtle go in the rhino at one point? I am pretty sure you drop the relic if you try to go in a transport.

Loving the battle reports so far. Trying to work in Anti-Flyer stuff into my lists now.

You can still embark in a transport. It's just that the transport can't move more than 6". The mission even tells you that if you embark it onto a zooming flyer, then you will wreck the flyer as a zooming flyer has to move 18" but can't with the objective in it.

Get the Quad-gun, preferably in an Imperial Bastion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

sudojoe wrote:

My plan was to lock him in place. If I hadn't challenged him, there was a chance that he could have wiped out the entire unit. He was just too hard to kill now that he gets his 2+ against my force weapons. Also, he was a scoring unit due to his Warlord trait. Imagine if he had got the Relic....I wouldn't have been able to make him drop it unless I had focussed my entire army on him and ignored the flyers.

ah so it's more of a prevent a morale check? But purifiers are fearless, they won't break, the staff still gets the 2++ bbut you do stand to lose the other 2 models which really don't do that much. I guess if you lose your staff on the challenge, you'll still get another round with the overlord killing the other 2 members so I guess it works. Just that you are missing some 6 extra hits which may put him down too so I guess it's just a trade off for the safer bet.

No, it isn't an issue of morale. It's more of an issue of damage control to prevent the threat of MSS and his warscythes from spilling over and killing the other guys after he kills my warding stave. My aim was to hold him in combat as my chances to kill him with just 2 force weapons (possibly only 1 due to MSS) realistically wasn't very high.

jy2 wrote:

Leth wrote:Did mister turtle go in the rhino at one point? I am pretty sure you drop the relic if you try to go in a transport.

Loving the battle reports so far. Trying to work in Anti-Flyer stuff into my lists now.

You can still embark in a transport. It's just that the transport can't move more than 6". The mission even tells you that if you embark it onto a zooming flyer, then you will wreck the flyer as a zooming flyer has to move 18" but can't with the objective in it.

Get the Quad-gun, preferably in an Imperial Bastion.

Too bad the Quad-gun only comes from the Aegis Defence line box set and the Bastion does not. GW making a lot of dough off the new rules.

Lego Bastion or Quad-guns anyone?

iGuy91 wrote:I have to say, i think I saw this one coming, parking lots just can't take the death ray, the fact it can hit multiple targets in a line, with STR 10 AP 1, is just murder on rhino/razorspam, auto-glancing, and then 5/6 chance of a penetrating hit, and a 1/3 chance of exploding?

Parking lots just play right into the hand of this Necron build. Granted, being more spread out may have helped matters some. (ex not getting all the psyrifle dreads blown away in a turn.)

It's actually a 50% chance to explode now that AP 1 is +2 on the table.

Too bad the Quad-gun only comes from the Aegis Defence line box set and the Bastion does not. GW making a lot of dough off the new rules.

Lego Bastion or Quad-guns anyone?

OOOO that's a great idea!

I can also buy enough spare Gundam parts from Akihabra over here for about 800 Yen to build some semblance of beam cannon quad guns
(your local hobby shop supplies may vary)

sudojoe wrote:

Too bad the Quad-gun only comes from the Aegis Defence line box set and the Bastion does not. GW making a lot of dough off the new rules.

Lego Bastion or Quad-guns anyone?

OOOO that's a great idea!

I can also buy enough spare Gundam parts from Akihabra over here for about 800 Yen to build some semblance of beam cannon quad guns
(your local hobby shop supplies may vary)

Spare Gundam parts? Lucky!

I bought a 1/100 scale Heavy Arms Custom Gundam model from Anime Expo a few weeks ago. Its double barrel Gatling Guns is enormous! I'm in the process of building and writing custom 40k rules for it. It will make a great addition to my Tau army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just posted the last two turns, 5 and 6.

Post-Game Analysis coming soon!

Turn 5 he embarked strikes and immobilized his tank trying to go flat out... You cannot flat out when you embark I thought? At any rate, good game, seems jy2's dice were letting him down for once at every single turn. I also think had he placed his dreads in the back field and spread apart for AA support he would have done better, bunching up was a poor choice.

Red Corsair wrote:Turn 5 he embarked strikes and immobilized his tank trying to go flat out... You cannot flat out when you embark I thought? At any rate, good game, seems jy2's dice were letting him down for once at every single turn. I also think had he placed his dreads in the back field and spread apart for AA support he would have done better, bunching up was a poor choice.

Just read last paragraph on page 78. Good catch!

It wouldn't make a difference in this game as it didn't budge an inch.

I dont think fliers get a jink save unless they are dodging or in hover mode

Leth wrote:I dont think fliers get a jink save unless they are dodging or in hover mode

Flyers can choose to evade and get a jink save until the end of their next turn. In doing so, they can only snap fire until their next turn.

If you know your flyers aren't in a position to do any damage next turn due to compulsory 18" move with 90 degree arc, weapons being 45 degree arc, and most likely flying off the table, then you might as well Evade when getting shot at. Nothing to lose since they won't be any effective next turn.

Most of jy2's army was clump up in the middle and close to my board edge. There wasn't anything for my flyers to shoot at after 90 degree pivot and 18" movement.

Good report

Until people properly embrace fortifications in their army lists, or Skyfire is more easily obtainable in new codecies I think this flyer spam is going to be a very solid build.

Great report guys!


I do have to say that I disagree with the interpretation that allows you to start so many of the Necron units off the table.

If you look at the rules for Deep Strike on page 36 you will see that they are very specific that models embarked upon transports that must be deployed via Deep Strike are ignored for figuring out how many units must start on the table:

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored."

The basic reserve rules, on page 124 on the other hand, say:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

In that second sentence, the 'these purposes' can only possibly be the same 'purposes' as the sentence above it, so in actuality the sentence says:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'


Therefore we basically have two rules:

1) Units that always must start in reserves (like Flyers) are ignored.
2) A unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit.


So yes, the flyers are ignored, but the fact that the embarked unit and the transport count as only a single unit in no way passes on the 'ignore' rule to the embarked unit.

Therefore, IMHO the Necron force should have had to start half of its non-flyer units on the table.

i've been telling a couple of friends of mine that very same thing Yakface.

IDC how many flyers they bring, I relish the fact that (if I win 1st turn) that I pretty much get x2 turns to burn 1/3 of their army down since it might be a unit of wraiths, a surflord, and a couple squads of warriors.

seeing that 5/6 missions are objective based, you can really focus fire the croissants holding troops as they come in piecemeal. not to mention the excellent tactic of bumb rushing to their side of the board. (though i'd have spread out those dreds more).

I'm most curious as to what we'll be seeing in the tournament scene with necron air force on necron air force but strongly feel like necrons will be overly represented at the next tournament and probably about 1/8th the number of pure GK lists we've seen before.

With how well MSU works, I'm really curious how well the storm talons will do with some drop pods. Could easily Alpha strike a necron flier list off the board turn 1.

I'm still working hard on comming up with some sort of staple 6th ed GK lists personally. Always interested in seeing what some other people's ideas may be and so far , we have the necron air force in our area that I have yet to beat.(or anyone for that matter yet) so quite interested in seeing some more ideas.

@yak, I agree with you on this.

I think it is in the necron best interest anyway, or you will see rune priests allied with other marines in drop pods just in case. Imagine a SW list with 2-4 RP with jaws podding in and RFGing your necron lord on turn 1......GG thanks for coming, too bad you only got to unpack the overlord.

Red Corsair wrote:@yak, I agree with you on this.

I think it is in the necron best interest anyway, or you will see rune priests allied with other marines in drop pods just in case. Imagine a SW list with 2-4 RP with jaws podding in and RFGing your necron lord on turn 1......GG thanks for coming, too bad you only got to unpack the overlord.

If I see someone play a Necron list like this, I'd probably drop all my daemons around him and light him up with as many shots as possible.

yakface wrote:
Great report guys!


I do have to say that I disagree with the interpretation that allows you to start so many of the Necron units off the table.

If you look at the rules for Deep Strike on page 36 you will see that they are very specific that models embarked upon transports that must be deployed via Deep Strike are ignored for figuring out how many units must start on the table:

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored."

The basic reserve rules, on page 124 on the other hand, say:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

In that second sentence, the 'these purposes' can only possibly be the same 'purposes' as the sentence above it, so in actuality the sentence says:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'


Therefore we basically have two rules:

1) Units that always must start in reserves (like Flyers) are ignored.
2) A unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit.


So yes, the flyers are ignored, but the fact that the embarked unit and the transport count as only a single unit in no way passes on the 'ignore' rule to the embarked unit.

Therefore, IMHO the Necron force should have had to start half of its non-flyer units on the table.

Yakface,

Good to hear you chime in. I hadn't really given this much thought because I though the rule was rather clear. Upon further examination, it appears that the rule isn't quite as crystal clear. However, I still see a case for the troops to be in reserves with their dedicated transport.

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

The preceding quote can be interpreted as what you say:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'

However, that is only partially true. It can also be intepreted as follows:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so with the condition that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

Now that is the full rule for reserves.

Also, a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes could mean 2 things:

1. If the transport does not have to start in reserves, then it counts as a single unit when calculating how many units start off on the board.

2. If the transport must start off in reserves, then it counts as a single unit that is ignored when calculating how many units must start off on the board (because the flyer itself, with or without passengers, is still a single unit that is ignored).


Personally, RAW may not necessarily be 100% clear but I believe it is clear enough so that the way we played is legal.


I do agree, however, that IC's count as a separate unit. So the way we played - 1 IC in reserves and 1 IC on the table - was correct as well.

After reading the paragraph on page 124 of the BRB, I agree with jy2's assessment.

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

That leaves the two Overlords, which I deployed first turn. That is half my units deploy able units.

I believe the reserve rules regarding dedicated transports was intended for pure drop pod armies. Necron Airforce benefits as well.

Seems like BA pure DoA armies got slightly nerf by the reserve rules. Fortunately, that's not my play style when I play BA

It's a two part problem. The first problem is that you are not working out how many units must start on the table, but how many may be placed in reserve. The end results are very different.

Overlord = 1
Overlord = 1
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Doom Scythe = Ignored
Doom Scythe = Ignored
Doom Scythe = Ignored

Total = 2
Cut in half = 1

So one unit that does not have to be deployed in reserves, may do so. The second part of the problem is that the Warriors do not actually HAVE to deploy in reserves with the Night Scythes. They are simply counted as one unit (and subsequently ignored) along with the Night Scythes for determining the number of units that may start in reserves, but once you figure out the actual units that may start in reserves or on the table, it looks like this:

Overlord
Overlord
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors

and due to our previous figures, only one of those may be put into reserves.


Edit: now it's arguable that once you place them inside of a transport that must start in reserves, then they also must start in reserves, since the transport doesn't have a choice.

I think it might also comes down to timing as when all this is checked.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since I'm particularly interested in how this plays out, I added this to YMDC here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/462965.page

The air force armies are going to be so frustrating to play.

I agree with Jy2 on this rules issue. I don't want to, haha, but I think they played it right and it is how we read the rule, too.

jy2 wrote:
Yakface,

Good to hear you chime in. I hadn't really given this much thought because I though the rule was rather clear. Upon further examination, it appears that the rule isn't quite as crystal clear. However, I still see a case for the troops to be in reserves with their dedicated transport.

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

The preceding quote can be interpreted as what you say:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'

However, that is only partially true. It can also be intepreted as follows:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so with the condition that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

Now that is the full rule for reserves.

Also, a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes could mean 2 things:

1. If the transport does not have to start in reserves, then it counts as a single unit when calculating how many units start off on the board.

2. If the transport must start off in reserves, then it counts as a single unit that is ignored when calculating how many units must start off on the board (because the flyer itself, with or without passengers, is still a single unit that is ignored).


Personally, RAW may not necessarily be 100% clear but I believe it is clear enough so that the way we played is legal.


I do agree, however, that IC's count as a separate unit. So the way we played - 1 IC in reserves and 1 IC on the table - was correct as well.

I'll make one more counter point to this and then I'll call it a day as I don't want to derail this thread into a rules discussion any more than I already have:

The problem with your interpretation above is that you're reading the rules as though they are written specially to address transports that must start in reserve, which is not what they are. They are two separate rules written to cover two different types of situations, which only sometimes intersect.

The first rule is written to cover units that must start in reserve. This absolutely can be units that are not transports, such as DE flyers, for example. So the rule simply tells us that these types of units are ignored when figuring out how many units have to start on the table.

The second rule is written to cover transports and their embarked units, and tells us that these count as only a single unit for determining how many units have to start on the table.

But these are not one and the same rule as people are trying to make them be...that would be the Deep Strike transport rule which actually IS what people are trying to make these two rules together into being.

So just to point out, here is how the rule would have been written if it was to say what you're saying it does:

"Units that must start the game in reserve (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

But of course the rules don't actually say this. They say that the unit which must start in reserve is ignored and that a transport and its contents are counted as a single unit as well.

So what do we have when we have a flyer with an embarked unit in reserve? You have two units, one of which is explicitly ignored and the other which is not. If the transported unit and the transport are both considered a single choice the why are you assuming you use the transports 'ignore this unit for counting' status and not the embarked units explicit need to be counted?

That's what I'm not seeing. People are making the assumption that because the transport and the unit both count as a single unit for the purposes of working out how many units must start on the table somehow this means that the transport's rule about being ignored is somehow passed onto the transported unit. Where is the logical conclusion that allows this to happen? Why isn't the transported unit's need to be counted applied onto the transport? Why are you automatically assuming its the other way around?


The final point I'll make that I believe shows that the rule as you're interpreting it is not correct comes down to the whole POINT of the rule. The goal of the rule is clearly to stop situations where players are stuck 'wasting' 2 turns of the game with their opponents army off the table. The few army builds that are explicity allowed to start completely off the table (Drop Pods & Daemons) have a built in mechanic that forces them into the game on turn 1.

I don't believe that the 'if you finish a game turn with no models on the table you lose' rule is supposed to be some sort of crazy gambling easter egg that players have to risk how many of their flyer embarked units they want to start on the table. The whole POINT of this rule is, with a few exceptions, to dismantle the whole concept of the all reserve army as something you see. But the problem is (I believe) that players are still in the mindset that these kinds of builds are appropriate and therefore they're looking at the rules with a bit of tunnel vision and thereby combining two rules together that aren't actually saying what they want them to.


Yes, units that must start in reserve are ignored for determining how many units must start on the table and yes embarked units and there transports count as a single unit for these purposes as well, but NOTHING in that statement says that the two units counting a single unit somehow means that the 'ignore' status of the transport somehow overrides the need of the embarked unit to be counted.

I believe that the Deep Strike rules give an appropriate precedent:

"Some units that must arrive by Deep Strike. They always
begin the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
When working out how many units can be placed in reserve,
units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any
models embarked upon them) are ignored."

Therefore a Drop Pod and Tactical Squad do not count when calculating how many units can be held in reserve.

You *could* do some convolutions to somehow imply that this only applies to deep striking units, but I think that it's a clear precedent that an "all deep strike" or "all reserves" army is still possible, whether we like it or not, GW has written it in to make it possible.

barontuman wrote:I believe that the Deep Strike rules give an appropriate precedent:

"Some units that must arrive by Deep Strike. They always
begin the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
When working out how many units can be placed in reserve,
units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any
models embarked upon them) are ignored."

Therefore a Drop Pod and Tactical Squad do not count when calculating how many units can be held in reserve.

You *could* do some convolutions to somehow imply that this only applies to deep striking units, but I think that it's a clear precedent that an "all deep strike" or "all reserves" army is still possible, whether we like it or not, GW has written it in to make it possible.

Arrrgh, breaking my promise not to continue this (sorry)...


There are absolutely NO convolutions needed! This rule (as I've stated above a couple times now) shows how the rule needs to be written to say what people are claiming it does.

So it is quite clear (to me at least) that units embarked on transports that must arrive by Deep Strike are ignored, while units embarked on ANY OTHER kind of transport are not ignored, even if their transport is.