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Made in fi
Honored Helliarch on Hypex




What motivated the unusual plaguebearer division? You split them into squads of 14 and 8, but you can take them in squads of anywhere from 5-20.

I can't quite understand why. Could you enlighten me?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





This list is pretty awesome. My friend Nick just won the first 6th ed tourney I played in with a similar list.

It does have a couple issues if you don't get the preferred wave or if you go second and your opponent manages to kill your grots.
   
Made in ca
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Well, this combo isn't legal in the way that most people are trying to pull it off, but points for creativity. There's nothing in the description of Aura of Decay that says you get to ignore the normal rules for shooting, so you need to have a valid target. Allies can't be targeted, so you can't activate Aura of Decay to kill your Grots unless there is also an enemy unit within 6" of your caster.

The Grots do make an interesting insurance policy-- you can run them behind your real units and thereby make the enemy very afraid of getting close to you-- but you can't just immediately kill them to power up.
   
Made in us
Malicious Mutant Scum




Memphis, TN

IMO most of you are forgetting the one main idea to this list: Shock and Awe. If someone came up to you and wanted a 2k game and said he was fielding daemons, you would automatically think you had a free win in the bag. That is where his idea is coming from. To completely change your gameplan. Yes, he did not put in any real AA, but even if he lost he changed your ideas and misconceptions about daemons. Brilliant idea for a list I've seen in a long time.

Quod Sum Eris.
Sic Transit Gloria  
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Los Angeles, CA

@Fetterkey: Actually, you do not need an enemy in range in order to use the ability, all you require is an enemy within line of sight as this ability is especially unique in that it is a shooting attack that can even be used in close combat, breaking the normal shooting rules.

The FAQ states that only line of sight is required, and it has no effect with regards to what the rest of whomever he is attached to fires at(assuming he is attached to a unit that can fire weapons) and ALL units around him are effected. So if you cna see an enemy, you can activate the ability, it doesnt hit the target but zaps all the grots.

Armies I play:
-5000 pts
-2500 pts
Mechanicus -1850 pts 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yep, i've been swayed that way too gameandwatch. I saw shooting attack and LoS and made an assumption that is not RAW. Nowhere is a target mentioned in aura's description. The FaQ just says LoS is needed. The list has been used at a RTT - link is posted in the battle report thread. I'm definitely going to put a revised list together to test now. Fateweaver is a brilliant inclusion IMHO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/23 21:10:20


 
   
Made in ca
Terminator with Assault Cannon





gameandwatch wrote:@Fetterkey: Actually, you do not need an enemy in range in order to use the ability, all you require is an enemy within line of sight as this ability is especially unique in that it is a shooting attack that can even be used in close combat, breaking the normal shooting rules. The FAQ states that only line of sight is required, and it has no effect with regards to what the rest of whomever he is attached to fires at(assuming he is attached to a unit that can fire weapons) and ALL units around him are effected. So if you cna see an enemy, you can activate the ability, it doesnt hit the target but zaps all the grots.


Close, but not quite. The FAQ states that line of sight is required for Aura of Decay, not that line of sight is the only requirement. The main rulebook clearly states that "any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy targets in the target unit doesn't shoot." Therefore, you have to be within 6" of your target-- which cannot be the Gretchin-- to fire the Aura of Decay. As per the FAQ, the rest of your unit can engage a different target if applicable, and the Aura affects units other than the original target, but you still have to be in range of a valid enemy target to use the ability in the first place.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Very creative idea. Can't wait for that extremely unique battle report jy2.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Report's done. We made some mistakes in our game, but I noted it in our game.

Thanks to Jabbdo for coming up with this idea and also for pointing out one of my mistakes in the game.



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Los Angeles, CA

Fetterkey wrote:
gameandwatch wrote:@Fetterkey: Actually, you do not need an enemy in range in order to use the ability, all you require is an enemy within line of sight as this ability is especially unique in that it is a shooting attack that can even be used in close combat, breaking the normal shooting rules. The FAQ states that only line of sight is required, and it has no effect with regards to what the rest of whomever he is attached to fires at(assuming he is attached to a unit that can fire weapons) and ALL units around him are effected. So if you cna see an enemy, you can activate the ability, it doesnt hit the target but zaps all the grots.


Close, but not quite. The FAQ states that line of sight is required for Aura of Decay, not that line of sight is the only requirement. The main rulebook clearly states that "any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy targets in the target unit doesn't shoot." Therefore, you have to be within 6" of your target-- which cannot be the Gretchin-- to fire the Aura of Decay. As per the FAQ, the rest of your unit can engage a different target if applicable, and the Aura affects units other than the original target, but you still have to be in range of a valid enemy target to use the ability in the first place.


This is incorrect for one reason, what you are specifically quoting in the rulebook refers to the "choosing a target" givin specific weapons characteristics. This ability is treated as a ranged weapon, but it has no profile. Now there is a discrepency in the chaos demons text stating about it being used in close combat, and how "as may be the target." Which contradicts the next statement of it hitting ALL models within 6". This is another key to the use of the weapon. It does not target units, as per normal shooting rules, it targets models and specifically all models within 6". In characteristic it is more akin to a nova psychic power than anything else, except that it is a ranged weapon that can be used in close combat(contradicting the rulebook as far as shooting into and out of close combat.).

Remember one key fact here though with regards to how the game is played. Codex trumps rulebook in all respects, and therefore since the aura of decay entry states " When used, ALL enemy MODELS within 6" suffer a strength 2 with ap-" (not a blast as it does not scatter, not a shot since it does not require rolling to hit, and targets all models in 6" automatically) you do not follow the normal rulebook step by step process when resolving the attack.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/23 22:15:09


Armies I play:
-5000 pts
-2500 pts
Mechanicus -1850 pts 
   
Made in ca
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Codex trumps rulebook, but 40k is a permissive rules set-- you may only do something if the rules say you can. The only exception to the normal rules granted by the Codex is that the firer and the target may be in close combat. The rules for the Aura of Decay do not explicitly state that you may fire it without picking a target or that you may fire it without being in range of the selected target, so you cannot do so.

All models within 6" are hit when the power is used, but to use the power in the first place, you have to select a valid target within the power's range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/23 22:19:15


 
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader




Pacific NW

phantommaster wrote:BTW you should get FNP against S10. The debate is that Daemons are immune to the effects of Instant Death therefore S10 doesn't inflict Instant Death and you get FNP.

Jabbdo wrote:Yeah, I think if you read the Eternal warrior rule RAW they would get FnP against str10, but then again some TO's might rule against you, as its not completely clear. In our gaming group we agree it works though.

Let's not bring that discussion into this thread. There is a happy one on YMDC where it belongs, and so far the general consensus leans more towards no FNP save (if going by strict numbers of posts one way or the other).


I wonder how useful a Land Pad would be for this list... You could still get the Comm Relay, and with a raised platform with wall to hide the Grots behind...


   
Made in it
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot





Wow... A rare case of easter-egging that leads to wonderful resuls!!! The idea of sacrificing people to Nurgle is wonderful and very daemonish... The main problem with this list is... the new Chaos demons dex that will be out in less than a month... :( ... I hope this will work anyway...
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Utah

Seems that demons are getting new figures and rules update this White Dwarf. So until the new rules are released, the plague bomb still works. I have yet to see if the update will change Aura of Decay. (still watching the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9QhcKf20k&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lECkhAw3qQw&feature=plcp

"Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme, and be happy in the part you have to play." "This is Chaos. We don't "ka-frickin'-boom" here."  
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine




Redlands, California

Igenstilch wrote:Seems that demons are getting new figures and rules update this White Dwarf. So until the new rules are released, the plague bomb still works. I have yet to see if the update will change Aura of Decay. (still watching the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9QhcKf20k&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lECkhAw3qQw&feature=plcp


My understanding of it is that only new units will be added to the 40k side. On the fantasy side they are rebalancing Flamers but the codex for the most part is staying the same.

Beakie Space Marine P&M Blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745028.page 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




What do you guys mean there's no reference to targets in Aura of Decay? It's right in the second line of the rules.

"Aura of Decay is a ranged weapon, but the Daemon may be in close combat at the time it uses it, as may thetargets."

The rule is telling you that you can use the ability while in close combat, as well as targeting an enemy unit in close combat, but it is clearly telling you that you have to have a target. If you didn't, they wouldn't have bothered referencing "targets"; they would have left that word out and just skipped to the next line regarding all enemy units in range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/24 21:15:49


 
   
Made in nz
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




sweet idea
   
Made in ca
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




I'm going to have to go with omerakk and say no, it doesn't work. The power specifies that it has targets, and has been FAQ'd to say that it requires LOS, meaning LOS to the targets, which, under the shooting rules, must be in range of the attack, and which cannot be your allies. That means you need to have a target and the Grots within 6", which leaves me to believe that Epidemus & Nurgle Marines is a better option.
   
Made in fi
Honored Helliarch on Hypex




I agree with your logic to the point where you assume that Aura of Decay is a shooting attack. It occurs during the shooting phase, and it requires a target, and that target must be in LoS. But because we have not established that aura of decay is a shooting attack, we cannot assume that the effect fails if the target is not within range.

In absence of such evidence, we do what the codex tells us to do -- that is, we inflict an S2 wound on every enemy model within 6". Which means the grots bite it en masse.

Edit: I rescind my previous position. Well argued.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/26 00:32:17


 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Igenstilch wrote:Seems that demons are getting new figures and rules update this White Dwarf. So until the new rules are released, the plague bomb still works. I have yet to see if the update will change Aura of Decay. (still watching the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9QhcKf20k&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lECkhAw3qQw&feature=plcp
Nope. No change to AoD.
New rules for flamers, new rules for screamers, a few new chariot units.

The second list with lootas and a BW is much better. The biggest problem the first list had is a strong dependence on grots. If the grots are shot up, then your really out of luck. One IG manticore and that's good game. The BW helps a great deal as you can stick your grots in them if needed.

I can also see you running this list with guard. While they get saves and have a higher toughness, you can still get lots of them. Just blob up 50 of them and then drop a few DPs with AoD and Eppi next to them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/25 13:32:19


 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

Jabbdo wrote:The problem with Epi in a Chaos army is that you actually have to kill 20 of your opponents models to get the benefits. Against hordes its not that hard, but against marines, 20 guys is usually about half/a third of their whole army. By taking grots you get your tally up as soon as you come on.


Let's see what happens in the new Codex - you could get the best of both world by maybe sacrificing Cultists instead of Grots?

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Corollax wrote:I agree with your logic to the point where you assume that Aura of Decay is a shooting attack. It occurs during the shooting phase, and it requires a target, and that target must be in LoS. But because we have not established that aura of decay is a shooting attack, we cannot assume that the effect fails if the target is not within range.

In absence of such evidence, we do what the codex tells us to do -- that is, we inflict an S2 wound on every enemy model within 6". Which means the grots bite it en masse.


Page 75 of the Daemon Codex:

"Aura of Decay is a ranged weapon"

Page 12 of the Rule Book:

"If no units are in range, a new target must be chosen"


Unlike other abilities that happen during the shooting phase, this one is clearly defined as a ranged weapon with reference to a target and line of sight.
Ranged Weapon
Target
Line of Sight
You have to ignore 3 things written in the codex and rulebook for this strategy to work, so I can't say I'm really comfortable with the idea. If I were you, I wouldn't plan on using this tactic for very long. Just look at what happened with Grey Knights and that whole scout-shunt idea last year.
   
Made in ca
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Yeah. The combo doesn't work, guys. Keep in mind that it's still potentially dangerous-- you can run the Grots behind your casters and the enemy has to kill them before your Aura of Decay casters get within 6" of enemy units, at which point they can activate the combo-- but it's not crazy powerful.
   
Made in fi
Andy Chambers






Tampere

Except I'm not allowed to declare targets, even if I wanted to. The power specifically states that it hits all enemy models within 6". It is IMPOSSIBLE to actually specify targets for it. Normal shooting weapons are required to choose a target, then you check range etc. Aura goes around this, as it doesn't have a set range value that you have to measure to check whether you can use it (it just works in a certain range), and it specifies the models that are hit by it, ie EVERY enemy model within 6". With a normal weapon you gotta pick a target unit to shoot at, with Aura that choice is already made for you, it hits all models within 6".

The word "target" that is in the FAQ references that LOS is needed just means that Aura can't hit models that are out of your LOS, like behind a wall.

"Dire Avengers are even great in close combat, I mean, an Exarch with a Diresword can even take down a Carnifex!!"

EUROCHEESE - You can smell it.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




6" is not a set range? It clearly states that models in combat may also be targeted. By using the word targeted in additional to normal restrictions, it implies that if the target is not in combat, it follows regular targeting rules as stated in the rule book.

IF it were just an auto area of effect, you would not need line of sight as it would just go off. But the FAQ clearly states that "Yes" you need Line of Sight.

It is a clever list and congrats on making it. But it is illegal.

Pick your cake:
So my murderous hurricane still effects the target even though I'm well out of 18" right? I mean, if you dont need to target me like normal rules, why do I have to limit myself to range restrictions too?

So GK grenades effect every single enemy unit in your army when you assault me right? Because it just says it effects enemy units and last I checked...all your models are or are part of a unit. Why do I have to just limit it to the unit that assaults me? It doesn't say this....

I mean if you don't need to target me, can be out of range, and still have your ranged attack go off...why do I have to limit myself?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/25 21:19:27


GWAR wrote:Lol PBS are Psyker Battle Squads and are in the IG codex lolololol!!!1!!!1!!11eleventyone!!!!!!11!!!
 
   
Made in fi
Andy Chambers






Tampere

Set range as in "OK, I'm withing range, so now I can fire etc.." Its range is just "if you are in 6", you get hit".

The thing that seems to be throwing people off is the use of the word "target" in the rules wording. In context, its clearly meant to mean "model that is within 6" and will be hit by Aura", not "model that I am tarageting" as the wording specifically states that you CANNOT pick specific targets. The word "target" in the wording is just used in the LOS and CC referencing parts, where it is used to explain whether models in CC or behind a wall would be hit.

"Dire Avengers are even great in close combat, I mean, an Exarch with a Diresword can even take down a Carnifex!!"

EUROCHEESE - You can smell it.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




you are clearly overlooking that Aura of Decay is a ranged weapon. NOT an area of effect weapon.

There are two types of main attacks; close combat attacks and shooting(ranged) attacks.

This is not close combat so we've narrowed it down to a shooting attack.

Now following shooting rules:
Check line of sight to opponent - yes we need this
Check range to opponent - yes we need this
Roll to hit - yes, but we AUTOMATICALLY hit
Roll to wound - yes if we make it this far

Aura of Decay stops at checkpoint #2 because it does not have range to the opponent.


Now If I'm within 6" and so are your grots, hey by all means you can kill them too. But if I'm not in the 6", then you cannot make the attack.

Blast weapons hit ALL models under the template. It can hit multiple squads, doesn't mean I needed to target both. I still need to be able to target at lease one though. I can't just shoot it into empty space. Neither can aura of decay just cast into empty space. Same concept.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/07/25 21:27:28


GWAR wrote:Lol PBS are Psyker Battle Squads and are in the IG codex lolololol!!!1!!!1!!11eleventyone!!!!!!11!!!
 
   
Made in fi
Andy Chambers






Tampere

Except there are exceptions to ordinary shooting rules, such as the Doom Scythes Death ray. Aura falls into it too, as it affects EVERY ENEMY MODEL WITHIN 6". To have to measure range to a target, you first have to DECLARE a target, which is IMPOSSIBLE with Aura, as it hits EVERY ENEMY MODEL WITHIN 6". It is not an ordinary shooting attack, as it has no set range value in its weapon profile (it doesn't even have a profile) it doesn't fire a specific amount of shots, and your BS value has no effect on Aura, as it inflicts hits straight away.

"Dire Avengers are even great in close combat, I mean, an Exarch with a Diresword can even take down a Carnifex!!"

EUROCHEESE - You can smell it.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Hitting every model within 6" has no bearing on a target. Jaws only needs to draw a line. I still need to target a squad though before I do it and then I auto hit everything in that 24" as well. This is literally identical but instead of a 24" line that auto hits, you have a 6" radius that auto hits. Both of us still need to target.

And again...you HAVE A SET RANGE VALUE of 6"....You cannot go beyond this can you? Hence it is a SET VALUE.

I am using your words to prove a point.

If you want to compare this to a Doom Scythe - tell me where it SPECIFICALLY states that you DO NOT need to pick a target. Doom Scythe clearly says "any point on the battlefield." Therefore it has an exception. Where does it say this for aura of decay?

I'll wait....

GWAR wrote:Lol PBS are Psyker Battle Squads and are in the IG codex lolololol!!!1!!!1!!11eleventyone!!!!!!11!!!
 
   
Made in fi
Andy Chambers






Tampere

I'm saying that I don't have to specify a target, as I can't specify a target. Therefore I have no unit to measure range to to see if the power works, as I'm not targeting anyone.

feth it, this is going nowhere. Until FAQ'd, I'll just keep playing it so it works on the Grots, because otherwise the list is crap

"Dire Avengers are even great in close combat, I mean, an Exarch with a Diresword can even take down a Carnifex!!"

EUROCHEESE - You can smell it.

 
   
 
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