Useless units

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**BoomWolf**

By "any" you mean any that crisis normall could, right?

Because I have seen before suggestions to give them rail rifles (and that would be abit crazy)

Though honestly, I think they just need a price brake. if you load them up with special guns they would jest make themselves a target, and they are not really hard to kill.

**Dronze**

A note on flash gitz... I really, honestly think that a bump to BS, and the ability to take a BW as a dedicated transport would go miles to making them a viable unit. Similarly, I think lootaz should have the option to take a looted wagon as a transport option, because it would be fluffier than the fluffiest of the fluffbunny's fluffernutter sammiches.

**the_valeyard6**

WildeThing wrote:
the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

I would have to disagree. Gaunts are cheaper and faster. Much of the points that genestealers cost are sunk into infiltrating/outflanking where they have been significantly nerfed. They only have 1 more toughness, paper armour and will die in droves just as easily as gaunts now it is hard to get them into combat unscathed. Except you can have more than twice as many Gaunts.

all of this depends on the board, i tend too do 3x2 gw tiles, so in the 1st turn the geanstealers run, second they ycharge into the enemys command get, get shot up in the overwatch, then the remaining 18+broodlord use there 58 s4 rending attacks, which cn instakill anything really, then they move to another target, while guants just do 1 s3 attack each which does almost nothing

to the person who said warriors were useless in a small game, if i take a bug prime, and 2 6 man warrior squads, turn 1, run, turn 2, charge and run rip apart anything, and dont care for getting shot at with the 3 wounds and decent toghness and save

and rippers are good in some cases, a, a distraction, they do work well for that, b, the bulding with the 2 quad lasscannons can only fire at the clossest ground unit and hit on 6+ for 200 points, so the rippers are perfect for that

**PrinceRaven**

the_valeyard6 wrote:
WildeThing wrote:
the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

I would have to disagree. Gaunts are cheaper and faster. Much of the points that genestealers cost are sunk into infiltrating/outflanking where they have been significantly nerfed. They only have 1 more toughness, paper armour and will die in droves just as easily as gaunts now it is hard to get them into combat unscathed. Except you can have more than twice as many Gaunts.

all of this depends on the board, i tend too do 3x2 gw tiles

I'm pretty sure everyone assumes the standard 6x4 board when talking tactics and such.

**cbteom**

Chosen: Give them back their infiltrate.
1k Sons: Cheaper and heavy/special weapons. Lets compensate for that slow and purposeful by being able to fire heavy weapons as they footslog (which they almost always do after their rhino is insta-gibbed from under them).
Mutilators: Pff... I really don't know, just remove them from the codex.
Possessed: Make them seriously cheap, and we're actually talking business here.

Also, yeah we need some assault transports. Especially those that wouldn't cost as much as Ahriman.
Drop pods wouldn't hurt either.

**Buttons**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not a unit but still, IG Shotguns, make them Str 4 like SM ones

There really is no reasoning to give IG str 4 shotguns, fluffwise or crunchwise. Marines can use more powerful shotguns because they are much bigger and stronger. A marine might be able to fire a 10 gauge shotgun without too much trouble, while for a normal human a 10 gauge shotgun is pretty damn big (most modern shotguns used for hunting big game or home defence are 12 gauge). The point of a shotgun is to give vets an assault weapon. It isn't always a good choice, but there are times when it would be nice to shoot and then assault a unit, like if you are loaded with flamers and/or meltaguns and want to finish off a weak unit without wasting an LRBT shot or something.

**Battlesong**

Just to let you know how long I could go with this response, I play CSM and Tyranids....

CSM - There are so many issues. At this point, my joke with this 'dex is that it should be called Codex: Heldrake Delivery System, as that's about all it's good for. Most of the issues have already been addressed on here ad infinitum. The one unit I am surprised nobody mentioned: Khorne Berzerkers - They weren't great before and have been nerfed even more with the reduction on their attacks and the loss of +1I on Furious Charge. I use them out of sheer stubbornness, but realize I am gimping myself. Giving back their 2 attacks would be a start here. Not to mention some type of assault transport for them.
The other thing that was left unsaid is some kind of LR variant. I can't believe that in 10000 years they couldn't have come up with something else to do with it.

Tyranids - 3/4 of this codex just flat sucks. I know these have also been gone over again and again previously on the board, but I still need to say a few things just because I love venting so much about my main army.
Lictors - Overpriced and an Elite, the death knell for getting on the tabletop in this army. If they could assault out of reserve, that would be the only way I could see saving them, and I'm not even sure that would help.
Pyrovores - 'Nuff said...., although I do like the previous idea that was mentioned of 2 firing profiles, that may actaully make them somewhat useful.....
Genestealers - Need to be able to assault out of outflank again or a point reduction
Warriors - God, I want to like these, but that 4 toughness, 4 armor is laughable at the point cost, oh and you should see what Enfeeble/Assault Cannon does to them. Missile Launchers love Warriors.....
Shrikes - All of the issues of the Warriors at even higher points....YES!
Mawloc - I tried one once, then realized what the extra 30 points provides on the Trygon....yeah, horrible
Harpy - What a waste of ink. I am not sure there is a way to save this unit without a complete rewrite

**ninjafiredragon**

Mahtamori wrote:
Eldar.

Exarch Powers.
Iron Resolve: remove.
Feel No Pain: add.

Avatar.
Night Vision: replace; Feel No Pain at 15 points.

Autarch.
Falcon Wings: add; grants Herald of Victory & Skyleap.
Warp Generator: change; one random model suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

Guardian Storm & Striking Scorpions & Autarch.
Scorpion Chainsword: rename; Eldar Chainsword
Chainsword: replace; Eldar Chainsword.
Power Sword: change; 10 points per model

Banshee.
Plasma Grenades: add.

Fire Dragon Exarch.
Iron Resolve: removed.
Feel No Pain: add; 10 points.

Harlquin.
Dodge: add; 4+ evasion save in melee.
Holo-suit: change; grants effect of current Veil of Tears at personal level.
Veil of Tears: change; Malediction 24", affected unit automatically miss with Snap Shots.
Hallucination Grenades: change; units assaulted by model armed with Hallucination Grenades count all models assaulting it as if armed with assault grenades.

Warp Spider Exarch.
Stalker: replace; Feel No Pain at 10 points

Falcon.
Shuriken Catapults: replace, Shuriken Cannon
Dedicated Transport: add; all but Wraiths.
Assault Vehicle: add.

Wave Serpent.
Cost: increase; +10
Serpent Shield: change; range 24"
Assault Vehicle: add.

Hemlock Wraithfighter.
This is just an odd one. It needs to be fixed. It's named fighter, but acts like a bomber, but bombs using a psychic power that many armies are nearly completely immune against. Suggestion:
Two heavy D-scythes: add; Template, Torrent: remove; blast.

In general the Eldar codex is a good one. There are no real complete wastes. There are some oddities, such as a model able to purchase Night Vision when he's got no weapons with a range longer than 12". Then you've got the Harlequins which GW continues to make conservative or no changes to because of their state in the other codex (which means they never receive the changes they need). And you've got the Guardian Storm which exists in a state where their cost reflects the cost of Guardian Defender rather than what they actually bring to the table.

hold on, now i agree with most of that, exept 2 things
1) why falcon and serpent have assult vehcle? with falcon it would make since, because people would actually be smart to use them (unlike now)
and 2) are you saying serpents arnt good enoguh? thread was about units that arent good, and need to be changed for the better. Are you saying serpents are bad? cause there not. there broken op awesome.

**Farseer14**

ninjafiredragon wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:
Eldar.

Exarch Powers.
Iron Resolve: remove.
Feel No Pain: add.

Avatar.
Night Vision: replace; Feel No Pain at 15 points.

Autarch.
Falcon Wings: add; grants Herald of Victory & Skyleap.
Warp Generator: change; one random model suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

Guardian Storm & Striking Scorpions & Autarch.
Scorpion Chainsword: rename; Eldar Chainsword
Chainsword: replace; Eldar Chainsword.
Power Sword: change; 10 points per model

Banshee.
Plasma Grenades: add.

Fire Dragon Exarch.
Iron Resolve: removed.
Feel No Pain: add; 10 points.

Harlquin.
Dodge: add; 4+ evasion save in melee.
Holo-suit: change; grants effect of current Veil of Tears at personal level.
Veil of Tears: change; Malediction 24", affected unit automatically miss with Snap Shots.
Hallucination Grenades: change; units assaulted by model armed with Hallucination Grenades count all models assaulting it as if armed with assault grenades.

Warp Spider Exarch.
Stalker: replace; Feel No Pain at 10 points

Falcon.
Shuriken Catapults: replace, Shuriken Cannon
Dedicated Transport: add; all but Wraiths.
Assault Vehicle: add.

Wave Serpent.
Cost: increase; +10
Serpent Shield: change; range 24"
Assault Vehicle: add.

Hemlock Wraithfighter.
This is just an odd one. It needs to be fixed. It's named fighter, but acts like a bomber, but bombs using a psychic power that many armies are nearly completely immune against. Suggestion:
Two heavy D-scythes: add; Template, Torrent: remove; blast.

In general the Eldar codex is a good one. There are no real complete wastes. There are some oddities, such as a model able to purchase Night Vision when he's got no weapons with a range longer than 12". Then you've got the Harlequins which GW continues to make conservative or no changes to because of their state in the other codex (which means they never receive the changes they need). And you've got the Guardian Storm which exists in a state where their cost reflects the cost of Guardian Defender rather than what they actually bring to the table.

hold on, now i agree with most of that, exept 2 things
1) why falcon and serpent have assult vehcle? with falcon it would make since, because people would actually be smart to use them (unlike now)
and 2) are you saying serpents arnt good enoguh? thread was about units that arent good, and need to be changed for the better. Are you saying serpents are bad? cause there not. there broken op awesome.

I agree that the Serpent doesn't need real buffs in and of itself but nothing of the Eldar is meant to work on its own.

My gripe is the inability to make wraithblades worth my while. They look great and do their job well, but for the cost they can't compete with their shooty Wguard cousins nor can they reliably get to a target. Giving the Serpent assault would make this unit excessively better since your opponent knows exactly what this unit is going to be used for as it crosses the no man's land.

**the_valeyard6**

darthnatus wrote:
the_valeyard6 wrote:
JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

... You don't play Tyranids obviously. I don't ever take Genestealers, I only take Gants and Gaunts (and sometimes a Terv as a troop choice) because Genestealers are extremely fragile, I had an entire squad destroyed in a single turn by only a Stormtalon and maybe one other small unit. Hormagaunts have never been taken out in one turn for me (neither have gants for that matter) because while they are slightly less durable they aren't huge targets.

i mainly play nids, but as i said earlier i play on smaller ables instore, so the oponant has less time to shoot them, and if they get shot up easly, put them in squads of five, but piut them near eachother, so when you charge they all do and if one fails the others wont and it also helps as they can only overwatch 1 squad so if they all hit, it can only kill 5

**scommy**

I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

**Nevelon**

scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Recently?! I'm pretty sure the 5++ was erratad in back in 3rd edition. They've been sporting it for a long time now...

**Happyjew**

the_valeyard6 wrote:
darthnatus wrote:
the_valeyard6 wrote:
JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

... You don't play Tyranids obviously. I don't ever take Genestealers, I only take Gants and Gaunts (and sometimes a Terv as a troop choice) because Genestealers are extremely fragile, I had an entire squad destroyed in a single turn by only a Stormtalon and maybe one other small unit. Hormagaunts have never been taken out in one turn for me (neither have gants for that matter) because while they are slightly less durable they aren't huge targets.

i mainly play nids, but as i said earlier i play on smaller ables instore, so the oponant has less time to shoot them, and if they get shot up easly, put them in squads of five, but piut them near eachother, so when you charge they all do and if one fails the others wont and it also helps as they can only overwatch 1 squad so if they all hit, it can only kill 5

I've had mixed luck with Genestealers, and as Ymgarl are already an Elite choice (of which we have too many), there is no need to make Genestealer Elite. Now, if Ymgarl Geestealers had the same options as regular Genestealers...then they would definitely be Elite and we could get rid of Genestealers.

**DogofWar1**

scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

**scommy**

DogofWar1 wrote:
scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

Yup totally agree with all you said.

Tactical Terminators may be one of the more iconic units in 40k. However, try as a might, I fail to see any real use for them.
1/ They fail badly at shooting.
2/ Are soso at assault, as you said they attack last - not cool.
3/ Reasonably easy to kill in the current AP2 environment, or even with massed small arm fire.
4/ Expensive.
All in all a pretty damned useless unit.

**Rumbleguts**

How about termigants with stranglewebs. 15 points for a 3T 1W 6+Sv model using a template that is Str 2 and rolls against unmodified Str to Wound. Oh, and is 0 armor pen. BUT, it is assault 1 AND pins! Three of these is the cost of a pyrovore.

**Corennus**

In GK:

Useless unit 1:

Daemonhost.
Random abilities means just when you need a good CC attack you get a shooting attack instead! ARRRGGH

Useless unit 2:
Brother Captain Stern.
Honestly WHY WHY WHY would you take him? He's 200 points of wasted potential. Wow he can reroll something! He has a "Zone of Banishment!!" that will kill your OWN UNITS TOO! and Let's Face It a Brother Captain tooled up with 50 points of wargear (Psychotroke, Rad Grenades, master crafted force weapon, blind grenades etc) will EAT STERN FOR BREAKFAST.

Useless Unit 3:
Penitent
Can't remember the name properly but the one with Fleet and multiple attacks and the fact that it is NOT AS GOOD AS A DEATHCULT ASSASSIN.

What I would change for these units.

Daemonhost:
Keep the randomness, but when in shooting you roll for random shooting attack, and when in CC you roll for random CC attack profiles.

Brother Captain Stern.
Bring him down to normal Brother Captain points. OR give him Hatred (Daemon of Tzeentch) to whole army and Eternal Warrior

Penitent
Give a FNP save of 4+ and make attacks Rending.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tactical Terminators.........

Overshadowed by Dark Angel Terminators and most definitely by Grey Knight Terminators.

They should take a leaf out of CSM codex and get a points reduction, and their special weapons shouldn't be so costly.

**WangoFett**

Mandrakes. Give them anything. They could not get worse.

**DogofWar1**

Something that could help Tactical Terminators (among other needed changes), would be to give them special ammo, or something like that as a unit upgrade.

In an era when Tyranids and all sorts of other nasties are popping up everywhere, I'd think the armory would be willing to give their super special Terminator troops the right ammunition to deal with it.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Warp Talons: This one's easy. Keep them the same cost, but give them their damn grenades, and make their claws rending ffs. They're supposed to be sharp enough to slice through the dimensional barrier. So Terminator armor is stronger than dimensions!?

**Quintinus**

Khorne Berserkers 105 points

Berserker: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV3+
Champion: WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A3 LD10 SV3+

Composition: 4 Berserkers and 1 Champion
Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Power Armor, Frag and Krak Grenades, Chainaxe

Special Rules: No Retreat, Feels No Pain (6+), Frenzy

Frenzy: Models with this rule may Charge after Running (as may any character who joins this unit), but the unit MUST charge any unit that it can hurt within 8". This unit also has the Rage special rule and its charge bonus cannot be negated by making a disordered charge or through any enemy abilities.

No Retreat: This unit is Fearless, but if it ever loses combat, it takes X additional wounds where X is the amount it lost by.
---------------------
Options:
Take up to 15 additional Khorne Berserkers: 18 points per model
Upgrade any Chainaxe to a Khornate Chainaxe (Gain Shred): 2 points per model
Any Khorne Berserker may replace its Chainaxe with a Power Weapon: 13 points per model
Every 5th Khorne berserker may replace its bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 10 points per model
The unit may gain the Scout special rule: 3 points per model

Replace the unit's equipment with Terminator Armor, Power Weapon, and combi bolter: 20 points per model
Any Berserker in terminator armor may replace their combi bolter with a power axe: 5 points per model
(A unit in Terminator Armor is always an elite choice and may not scout)

**ZebioLizard2**

Dakkamite wrote:
Sorry man, but thats a terrible, terrible idea.

Orks don't need and should never get accuracy. Instead of firing one rokkit at BS 3 they fire two at BS 2. Theres nothing at all less strategic about that.

Not to mention Shoota boyz are hardly useless. Sluggas on the other hand... but they don't give a damn about BS 3!

My useless unit is Flash Gits. They are the one exception to everything else in this post. They either need to be more accurate, or preferrably, twin linked or more shots. Plus way cheaper.

The other is the Blitzabomma. Bomms are hard to drop, and when you do, you get a small blast with S7 AP4 2d6 armour pen... thats just pure garbage, not even a single point of extra damage on the chart due to rubbish AP4.

Even if Orks used to have BS3 before 4th edition.

Must be a shocker to know that Warbosses could get up to BS5! I mean the Bad Moonz shoot well enough afterall.

**necronspurs2012**

flayed ones. if they had a weapon option like ap 4 claws or something with a special character that buffed them a little they would be great

**Mahtamori**

scommy wrote:
DogofWar1 wrote:
scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

Yup totally agree with all you said.

Tactical Terminators may be one of the more iconic units in 40k. However, try as a might, I fail to see any real use for them.
1/ They fail badly at shooting.
2/ Are soso at assault, as you said they attack last - not cool.
3/ Reasonably easy to kill in the current AP2 environment, or even with massed small arm fire.
4/ Expensive.
All in all a pretty damned useless unit.

1. Storm Bolter is a bit weak for a 40pts model, provided the model was only competent at shooting, which is not where it's strength lies.
2. It also completely ignores armour and instantly kills a Chapter Master.
3. AP2 didn't get more common, it got scarcer. Remember that power weapons of any description used to be AP2. I think recent codices have more AP2 for the simple reason that Terminators and their equivalents simply didn't have enough to be scared of except vast number of attacks. Which you can't get in melee all that easily without presenting too much free combat resolution.
4. Well, yeah, of course. Give a tactical marine a power fist and he's up above 30 points. How many points do you think it's worth not only preventing twice as many shots but also becoming immune to AP3, which is a hell of a lot common than AP2, is worth?

They aren't bad and they aren't useless. It's just that for the longest time ever, with the exception of the Space Wolf codex, Storm Shields have not been priced correctly. Meaning THSS Terminators were/are dirt cheap and isn't a good comparison. Is the balance for Bolter Termies good? No, but this is Warhammer 40k we're talking about, so set against that standard they're pretty much all right and nothing worth losing time about.

**Desubot**

"2. and instantly kills a Chapter Master. " That are not on bikes, or has a shield eternal

**scommy**

Mahtamori wrote:
scommy wrote:
DogofWar1 wrote:
scommy wrote:
I reckon tactical terminators could just about fit in here. I mean for 40 points they are a huge target with 1 wound. I know they recently got the 5+ invul, but still meh. So much ap2 out there just hoses them down.

Tactical Terminators do need something. A storm bolter doesn't put out enough firepower for a 5 man unit to be even remotely threatening with shooting, and powerfists, while very powerful, are striking last.

The big reason why terminators were so threatening in 5th was because of assault terminators. The status quo favored them, and while tactical terminators were considered meh, the fact that terminators were getting bought kept their tactical brothers from getting upgrades/points reductions. In addition, there was less AP2/rending/etc. floating around.

Nowadays, between weight of fire and/or low AP weapons, Terminators are very tough to use outside of a land raider team (which comes in at about 450 points), and if you're springing for that you might as well go all out and get the assault terminators.

I think something that could help would be making them cheaper (35 pts or about) and giving them access to two heavy weapons per 5 terminators, with a 3rd allowed at some level (8+ terminators or so). Maybe also giving them access to some special rules or something akin to the way old BT Termies would get special rules. Like allow Tank Hunters to apply, or give Skyfire to heavy weapons, or something.

But unfortunately, at this point we're likely locked in until 7th ed, now that C:SM has come out.

Yup totally agree with all you said.

Tactical Terminators may be one of the more iconic units in 40k. However, try as a might, I fail to see any real use for them.
1/ They fail badly at shooting.
2/ Are soso at assault, as you said they attack last - not cool.
3/ Reasonably easy to kill in the current AP2 environment, or even with massed small arm fire.
4/ Expensive.
All in all a pretty damned useless unit.

1. Storm Bolter is a bit weak for a 40pts model, provided the model was only competent at shooting, which is not where it's strength lies.
2. It also completely ignores armour and instantly kills a Chapter Master.
3. AP2 didn't get more common, it got scarcer. Remember that power weapons of any description used to be AP2. I think recent codices have more AP2 for the simple reason that Terminators and their equivalents simply didn't have enough to be scared of except vast number of attacks. Which you can't get in melee all that easily without presenting too much free combat resolution.
4. Well, yeah, of course. Give a tactical marine a power fist and he's up above 30 points. How many points do you think it's worth not only preventing twice as many shots but also becoming immune to AP3, which is a hell of a lot common than AP2, is worth?

They aren't bad and they aren't useless. It's just that for the longest time ever, with the exception of the Space Wolf codex, Storm Shields have not been priced correctly. Meaning THSS Terminators were/are dirt cheap and isn't a good comparison. Is the balance for Bolter Termies good? No, but this is Warhammer 40k we're talking about, so set against that standard they're pretty much all right and nothing worth losing time about.

AP2 got scarcer? Are you serious? hmm okaaay not sure about your meta. Do you play against Tau or Eldar? Have you actually tried to play with Tacticals recently? Do you play at all?

**McNinja**

Tactical Terminators need a more powerful weapon or more weapon upgrades. Is there any particular reason that they can't go into battle with a Multi-melta or plasma cannon? No? That's what I thought. They need more versatility, because right now they compete with assault terminators for the same role, and they'll lose every time.

Also,

1. Mutliators need to cost 5 points less, be able to take a Land Raider as a DC.
2. Thousand Sons need to either cost 5 points less or be better.
3. Flayers need shred or something.

**Frozen Ocean**

scommy wrote:AP2 got scarcer? Are you serious? hmm okaaay not sure about your meta. Do you play against Tau or Eldar? Have you actually tried to play with Tacticals recently? Do you play at all?

It did. Remember, all power weapons completely ignored armour. Power weapons are very common. Pre-6th, Terminators were easy pickings for just about every dedicated close-combat unit. Assault Terminators could at least use their Storm Shields to protect them until they could use their Thunderhammers, or just use lightning claws and not worry about always striking last.

McNinja wrote:Tactical Terminators need a more powerful weapon or more weapon upgrades. Is there any particular reason that they can't go into battle with a Multi-melta or plasma cannon? No? That's what I thought. They need more versatility, because right now they compete with assault terminators for the same role, and they'll lose every time.

I heartily agree with this. Instead of doing this, though, they created Centurions. I do think that Tactical Terminators aren't supposed to be fire-support, but at the same time, they really do need bigger guns. One assault cannon per squad just doesn't cut it. Terminators are loosely equal to two Tactical Marines stuck together, so I do think they should have access to the heavy weapons that Tactical Marines do, and twice as many at that.

EDIT: Damn, "Devastator Terminators" would be awesome.

**Exergy**

Corennus wrote:

Tactical Terminators.........
Overshadowed by Dark Angel Terminators and most definitely by Grey Knight Terminators.
They should take a leaf out of CSM codex and get a points reduction, and their special weapons shouldn't be so costly.

CSM terminators are cheaper because they dont have chapter tactics or ATSKNF. They are still only 2 points cheaper.
A tactical terminator with storm bolter and power fist is 40 points
An assault terminator with dual lightning claws is 40 points
A CSM termaintor with combibolter and powerfist is 38 points
A CSM termaintor with dual lightning claws is 38 points.

The new CSM codex saw CSM terminators get MORE expensive, not less.

**thedavo**

cbteom wrote:
Chosen: Give them back their infiltrate.
1k Sons: Cheaper and heavy/special weapons. Lets compensate for that slow and purposeful by being able to fire heavy weapons as they footslog (which they almost always do after their rhino is insta-gibbed from under them).
Mutilators: Pff... I really don't know, just remove them from the codex.
Possessed: Make them seriously cheap, and we're actually talking business here.

Also, yeah we need some assault transports. Especially those that wouldn't cost as much as Ahriman.
Drop pods wouldn't hurt either.

Drop-podding Havocs with quadruple meltagun loadout would be insane.