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Penal legion: Ability to buy up to ten extra soldiers in a squad, 70 pts base and 7 pts a model, let them chose their Desperado skill rather than rolling on a table, +1WS

Still not really great, but much better than before

I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

 Lord Gatlas wrote:
I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

assault cannons wouldnt be man portable unless you are in terminator armor.

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Gatlas wrote:
I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

assault cannons wouldnt be man portable unless you are in terminator armor.

Says you...

For Blood Angels:
Tactical Marines (dammit GW, learn to play your own armies!)
Non-assault oriented Death Company (too damn expensive either way but at least with cc weapons they're worth the points)

Tyranids:
Lictors
Pyrovores
Mawlocs (just get a fething trygon)
Warriors (not always, but they're pricey and not points well-spent if you're using endless swarm tactics, they are also pretty damn easy to kill, making them hard to justify for MC)
Rippers (expensive, weak, easy to kill)
Old One Eye (it's a crappy version of a crappy MC, who I'm mentioning next)
Carnifex (formerly the most feared MC of them all! Now it's an expensive gun-beast that's gakky in CC and too expensive to take for ranged)

 StarHunter25 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Gatlas wrote:
I may as well throw my hat in the ring. Why is it that the only shooty options for my SM commanders are a bunch of bullcrap combi-weapons and storm bolters? How is it that every captain/chapter master in the known universe picked some kind of whoopin' stick? A space marine commander should be able to take whatever freaking man-portable weapon he wants! Why can't my Chapter master, my freaking CHAPTER MASTER take an assault cannon!? is there really not enough to spare? why can't I give my captain a flamer of all things, would it really be that overpowered? My custom chapter's primary trait is an utter hatred for CC, so why would the chapter master start waving a sword around? or why wouldn't the devestator captain at least carry a heavy bolter? NONSENSE.

assault cannons wouldnt be man portable unless you are in terminator armor.

Says you...

Those weapons are rotary cannons not assault cannons and are way worse, something like salvo 3/5 S3AP6

Rumbleguts wrote:
Hum, yes I know. Was just making a point of how useless they are. Haven't seen a suggestion for fixing ripper swarms that didn't start from the ground to rebuild them to make them useful.

Give them eternal warrior and lose the 'eating themselves' rule. Give them a pricey upgrade for making them rending?

Useless units?
Nobody has mentioned Scout Bikes, nor melee Scouts. Using them is like giving youself a handicap.

...Actually, you'd lose your dignity in the progress too....

Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

Spetulhu wrote:
Personally I'd wish SoB Celestians had models and options to actually do what their special rules suggest, that is try melee. Now they have an Act of Faith good for melee but can't get gear for it, not even bolt pistol and CCW for an extra attack.

A common suggestion I see is letting them take storm shields and power weapons. Would work nicely, I think. Makes them very good at assaulting and quite survivable, as is befitting of an elite choice.

As for models, something like the Celestians in Soulstorm might be nice.

 Tigramans wrote:
Useless units?
Nobody has mentioned Scout Bikes, nor melee Scouts. Using them is like giving youself a handicap.

...Actually, you'd lose your dignity in the progress too....

and no mentions of Mandrakes, which are far far worse

Whoa! CC scouts are great for clearing cultist blobs, specialy when paired with a LSS. Oh yes, and a cheap unit to throw at a monstrous creature to do damage with krak grenades when the MC insta-gibs your expensive Boltergaunts just as easily as the cheap scouts. Also using scout redeployment a 2nd turn charge is very feasible.

The Emperor's Champion - give him more attacks, make his sword S6 all the time, problem solved. 2 attacks base with a S4 weapon just doesn't cut it for character hunting, even with ID on 6's to wound in challenges.

 Exergy wrote:

and no mentions of Mandrakes, which are far far worse

Oh wow, how did I manage to forget the Mandrakes! *slap on a forehead*

SHIELD DRONE SQUAD.
Heck, give them SOMETHING
/Thread.

 Tigramans wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

and no mentions of Mandrakes, which are far far worse

Oh wow, how did I manage to forget the Mandrakes! *slap on a forehead*

they have stealth, easy to miss

 Exergy wrote:

they have stealth, easy to miss

Oh yes, nice one xD

 BoomWolf wrote:
SHIELD DRONE SQUAD.
Heck, give them SOMETHING
/Thread.

I agree!

Eldar.

Exarch Powers.
Iron Resolve: remove.
Feel No Pain: add.

Avatar.
Night Vision: replace; Feel No Pain at 15 points.

Autarch.
Falcon Wings: add; grants Herald of Victory & Skyleap.
Warp Generator: change; one random model suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

Guardian Storm & Striking Scorpions & Autarch.
Scorpion Chainsword: rename; Eldar Chainsword
Chainsword: replace; Eldar Chainsword.
Power Sword: change; 10 points per model

Banshee.
Plasma Grenades: add.

Fire Dragon Exarch.
Iron Resolve: removed.
Feel No Pain: add; 10 points.

Harlquin.
Dodge: add; 4+ evasion save in melee.
Holo-suit: change; grants effect of current Veil of Tears at personal level.
Veil of Tears: change; Malediction 24", affected unit automatically miss with Snap Shots.
Hallucination Grenades: change; units assaulted by model armed with Hallucination Grenades count all models assaulting it as if armed with assault grenades.

Warp Spider Exarch.
Stalker: replace; Feel No Pain at 10 points

Falcon.
Shuriken Catapults: replace, Shuriken Cannon
Dedicated Transport: add; all but Wraiths.
Assault Vehicle: add.

Wave Serpent.
Cost: increase; +10
Serpent Shield: change; range 24"
Assault Vehicle: add.

Hemlock Wraithfighter.
This is just an odd one. It needs to be fixed. It's named fighter, but acts like a bomber, but bombs using a psychic power that many armies are nearly completely immune against. Suggestion:
Two heavy D-scythes: add; Template, Torrent: remove; blast.

In general the Eldar codex is a good one. There are no real complete wastes. There are some oddities, such as a model able to purchase Night Vision when he's got no weapons with a range longer than 12". Then you've got the Harlequins which GW continues to make conservative or no changes to because of their state in the other codex (which means they never receive the changes they need). And you've got the Guardian Storm which exists in a state where their cost reflects the cost of Guardian Defender rather than what they actually bring to the table.

 BoomWolf wrote:
SHIELD DRONE SQUAD.
Heck, give them SOMETHING
/Thread.

Shield drone squads don't exist, there are only drone squads that can be comprised of any combination of shield, gun, or marker drones. So they can have two different weapons.

Flash gitz, Tankbustas, Kommandos, Stormboyz, Gretchin, Burnas, Basic Nobz with Power klaws, and Deffcoptas. That is all.

Most of the Eldar Aspect Warrior HQs are way too expensive for what they do. Just my opinion however. Probably need to make them cheaper is all.

Its well known that Pyrovore is the worst unit in 40K, even with the competition. I do agree that Torrent would help it a lot, but it should have two firing profiles. One as a torrent Hellhound cannon and one as a twin-linked multi-melta. It instantly fills a hole in the 'Nid arsenal, being AP 1 shooting and mid range anti-heavy armor. I'd also act as a 12" 'Do Not Enter' zone for enemy armor. Also, just for the lulz, it should be made Calvary. Since it is, technically, one 'Nid riding another 'Nid.

Mandrakes...yes, they need some help. I don't think 1st turn assault is really the issue since it essentially nullifies IG gunlines that aren't tanks. I'd rather do something relatively simple, like start them off with a pain token. Also, give them Shrouded instead of Stealth first turn they arrive, then Stealth after the fact. Appearing 18" away, then moving 6 and pinning a gun line unit is far more reasonable than showing up and instantly nullifying a unit of Pathfinders, IG HWTs, or any other squishies who have 0 change in CC. Its even worse since you'd have probably deployed them close to each other to take advantage of orders or Lord Com leadership, and thus they could just effectively delete your gun line for the purposes of the game.

Flash Gitz, I agree, are atrocious. Too expensive and not enough dakka to justify the expense. If I'm going to pay for Gets Hot!, I want them to be damned Plasma Guns at the very least. Not 'randomly meltaguns or maybe multi-lasers, you just can't tell'. Those Gitfinders deal with cover saves is nice, but those upgrades should be worth their salt instead of things to waste points on. I'm okay with some measure of randomness to the orkies, but enough is enough. Gets Hot! is all the randomness needed, make them pay to upgrade their weapons into either Plasma Guns or Meltaguns, not randomly either or neither. Also, of all the units that are Orks in the game, they could get away with BS3. But I'm not married to the idea.

Yeah, Kommandos are terrible, but mainly because they've got no survivability. If you infiltrate them, they are essentially a first blood you're giving to your opponent. They could use better options, too. Only two spechul weapons isn't cutting it. Pair of Rokkit Launchers? Great. Won't hurt anything, so you've just wasted your points. Don't think they can all take Shootas, but they should be able to. At least then they can pop up in range to Dakkadakka some units first turn. Also, maybe give them some things like the old Catachan rules where they can put booby traps on terrain pieces. Make those terrain rules work in your favor even more.

Rough Riders. Noone uses them for a few very good reasons. They compete with Valks, Vendettas, and Hellhounds for a Fast Attack slot, and you'll be hard pressed for them to earn their points back. Give them back their AP2 so they can be a solid counter charge unit, or make their Hammer of Wrath hits Str 5, AP3 so they can actually gib most things on the charge that aren't Terminators.

Oh, Last Chancers, you weren't given that in the IG codex. Penal Legionnaires should totally have the Combined Squads rule but only with other Penal Legionnaires. Additionally, they should be 50 pts base for 10, and then you can buy those optional upgrades for 10 points each. Sure, having all would make them 8 points a model, and they'd still be Guardsmen so they'd not be great even with the upgrades, but having 30 of them Outflank and start double tapping at 24" before charging feels better than what we've got currently. They'd at least be a somewhat viable option compared to what is the only viable way to take enemy objectives, which is Valkyries & Vet teams. Besides, I have a feeling Vet teams are going to get the nerf bat hard next codex.

I could go on, so I'll stop here.

Glancing through this thread it seems that the problems with these "useless units" fall under four categories:

1) Units that have been nerfed by changes in USRs, and the rules more generally.
2) Units whose main problem is simply being outshone by another unit(s) that competes for the same slot, or at least those precious points.
3) Units that are not bad per se, but are just a bit overpriced.
4) Units that are just flawed from the outset.

Of course a unit's problems might fall under more than one of these categories.

The first problem I sympathise with the designers over. 40k is a huge game, with loads of units, and it changes constantly. Someone is bound to get screwed here and there. Plus these are often dated units that can possibly hope to be patched back up again in the future.

The second I feel is similarly unavoidable. True internal balance in a codex is near impossible, and some units are always going to be that little bit better. I feel a lot of the fault for the flack these units get lie with over competitive players. Sure they might never make it into that uber tournie list, but there is no reason you can't just enjoy them in friendlier games. Falcons are a great example. If serpents didn't kick so much ass I don't think people would slag them off as much. I use them, they are great in game and do roughly what you would expect for the points. But, yeah, those serpents just do a little more...

The 3rd problem is similar and a bit frustrating. A point reduction is often the ideal solution to problem 2) as well. I often wish GW would just grow a pair with their FAQ's and at least in the most obvious cases give them a little tweak. If you have ever played ANY online pvp game, patches will repeatedly tweak and strive for balance between the different things you can use/play with. GW has the means now, in the internet age, and should use them. It is more work, but it is in their interest as it would sell those problem models!

The fourth one is the one that just plain frustrates me, when you read through a new codex, find an entry, and think "why even bother?" Banshees I am looking at you, Grrr!

 JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

I would have to disagree. Gaunts are cheaper and faster. Much of the points that genestealers cost are sunk into infiltrating/outflanking where they have been significantly nerfed. They only have 1 more toughness, paper armour and will die in droves just as easily as gaunts now it is hard to get them into combat unscathed. Except you can have more than twice as many Gaunts.

the_valeyard6 wrote:

 JhonasX wrote:
Lictors. They just don't do what they're designed for. Use them and you'll get laughed out the door.

that depends, if you have a three man/nid brood and your oponant(playing marines) has a scout squad with snipers in abulding, pinning down your other units, the lictor brood is perfect! but after that, there useless unless there is something close by

the hormagaunts are useless, why take them when geanstealers are so much better, geanstealers should be moved to elites imo because a army of geanstealers is legal and there op beyond belief which renders the gaunts useless

... You don't play Tyranids obviously. I don't ever take Genestealers, I only take Gants and Gaunts (and sometimes a Terv as a troop choice) because Genestealers are extremely fragile, I had an entire squad destroyed in a single turn by only a Stormtalon and maybe one other small unit. Hormagaunts have never been taken out in one turn for me (neither have gants for that matter) because while they are slightly less durable they aren't huge targets.

Lictors! Oh I forgot about them. So many poor, poor Tyranid units.

Yeah, heard interesting rumor about Lictors getting some kind of benefit, like the first enemy turn after they arrive being only able to fire snap shots at them or some such. Would make them loads more survivable. I'd say if that's too extreme (and lemme tell ya what, it would all but guarantee they'll get into charge next turn), then Shrouded and Stealth special rule first full turn and maybe some kind of Blind Grenade would help.

A friend of mine brought this up, but it always seemed silly that Hormagaunts weren't considered Beasts, or that the 'Nid army as a whole didn't have beasts in any way. Considering who and what they are, it'd doesn't make sense. Now, I grant you, putting them 24.0000001 inches from the opposite table edge then immediately moving 12+D6" in one turn is intimidating, but c'mon.

 NydusTemplar wrote:
A friend of mine brought this up, but it always seemed silly that Hormagaunts weren't considered Beasts, or that the 'Nid army as a whole didn't have beasts in any way. Considering who and what they are, it'd doesn't make sense. Now, I grant you, putting them 24.0000001 inches from the opposite table edge then immediately moving 12+D6" in one turn is intimidating, but c'mon.

Well, we do have the overcosted and really fragile Raveners. I love the model but they just die so quickly.

 PrinceRaven wrote:


Well, we do have the overcosted and really fragile Raveners. I love the model but they just die so quickly.

I completely missed Raveners, probably because I looked at them and said why bother. I'll have to give the codex a once over. Last time I looked at it in depth was back during early 5th when I actually played table top with IG and was regularly being eaten by 'Nids. Primarily because lack of funds and scrounged army.

Stealth suits. let them buy any special weapons not just 1 per 3 and you would see them flying off the shelves