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I know for my 15mm moderns, my insurgents could field 4-5 pickup truck based technicals, and a couple bigger trucks with AA type auto-cannon on them, and my US forces could field a Stryker platoon, a hummer mounted recon platoon, and a tank section, along with appropriate amounts of infantry and other supporting elements for both sides.

Trying to do that in 28mm would have been VERY hard on the wallet, and impossible to get onto a 4x6 urban terrain board (for which I had well over 30 15mm buildings).

I would recommend 20mm!

Although, at the same time I would love some beautifully sculpted 28mm terminators, and it would be really cool for the detail on some battle-damaged T-800s or morphing T-1000 etc.

Thinking about this actually, I'm really intrigued by what rule mechanics they can come up with for T-800 vs. T-1000 combat. And, disappointed if there isn't a 'witty one-liner' special move that can be used prior to the destruction of something by a T-800

Okay, first off, I was only kidding.

Secondly, all of your arguments basically broke down to fielding more models = better, which is not true.

Thirdly, Flames Of War being popular, is beyond me. I tried playing it. The models are too small for me to enjoy painting, and the troop stats are too abstrated for my taste. It's the equivalent of 40K units being run entirely by their LD value and USRs.

Fourthly, this has nothing to do with the Terminator Tabletop Game, which I've been waiting for 20+ years and is in 28mm heroic scale.

 adamsouza wrote:
Okay, first off, I was only kidding.

Secondly, all of your arguments basically broke down to fielding more models = better, which is not true.

No, that was not my argument at all. My argument was that to field realistically sized units at reinforced platoon to company level, including their support elements, 15mm is a lot better than 28mm if you want an affordable force which can be played on a normal sized table. There was nothing about more models = better, there was better scale distances with decent sized forces are more achievable with 15mm when you get to the size game I described.




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To apply this to the Terminator game, fielding two tracked HKs with a flying HK in support and a couple squads of man sized terminators against a reinforced platoon of humans (with their technicals and crew served weapons) would work a lot better in 15mm than in 28mm. It would be more affordable, and a normal sized table would not be overly crowded and there would be room to maneuver and have more realistic weapon ranges.

But if you are running just a squad or two of humans with one vehicle and a smaller number of machines, 28mm works well.

 CptJake wrote:
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To apply this to the Terminator game, fielding two tracked HKs with a flying HK in support and a couple squads of man sized terminators against a reinforced platoon of humans (with their technicals and crew served weapons) would work a lot better in 15mm than in 28mm. It would be more affordable, and a normal sized table would not be overly crowded and there would be room to maneuver and have more realistic weapon ranges.

But if you are running just a squad or two of humans with one vehicle and a smaller number of machines, 28mm works well.

Other than the main movie opening where we see the large army decimate human forces... I've always had the impression that the resistance would never be platoon sized groups. They would be 5-10 people, maybe 1-2 vehicles at the most doing hit and run attacks and skirmishes.

Mainly because it wasn't so much about being outmatched or outgunned but more so about mortality. A war between two groups of humans large scale doesn't usually involve nukes, or at least they would think twice about using them because possible friendly casualties loss. When it is machine vs human, its completely different as there is no reason not to eradicate with weapons of mass destruction the area. There is nothing stopping them from a scorch earth war style... hence why I don't think battles would be large platoons. They would be small strike forces, never letting all their numbers be in one area for too long. Bands of resistance fighters and cells spread out through-out the world, not one organized army mobilizing at once... that is why I believe 28-32mm works fine for it and 15mm would not.

I wonder how many human soldiers balances against a single T 800, nevermind a HK.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To apply this to the Terminator game, fielding two tracked HKs with a flying HK in support and a couple squads of man sized terminators against a reinforced platoon of humans (with their technicals and crew served weapons) would work a lot better in 15mm than in 28mm. It would be more affordable, and a normal sized table would not be overly crowded and there would be room to maneuver and have more realistic weapon ranges.

But if you are running just a squad or two of humans with one vehicle and a smaller number of machines, 28mm works well.

Other than the main movie opening where we see the large army decimate human forces... I've always had the impression that the resistance would never be platoon sized groups. They would be 5-10 people, maybe 1-2 vehicles at the most doing hit and run attacks and skirmishes.

Mainly because it wasn't so much about being outmatched or outgunned but more so about mortality. A war between two groups of humans large scale doesn't usually involve nukes, or at least they would think twice about using them because possible friendly casualties loss. When it is machine vs human, its completely different as there is no reason not to eradicate with weapons of mass destruction the area. There is nothing stopping them from a scorch earth war style... hence why I don't think battles would be large platoons. They would be small strike forces, never letting all their numbers be in one area for too long. Bands of resistance fighters and cells spread out through-out the world, not one organized army mobilizing at once... that is why I believe 28-32mm works fine for it and 15mm would not.

And yet we see a movie where the humans even fly A10 sorties against the machines and raids on machine facilities... There are clearly larger than squad sized battles going on in the Terminator universe.

I'm a big fan of the 15mm scale, but I think if you are planning to make and sell a platoon level skirmish game 28mm will be a better option.

It just has a broader appeal than 15mm which is it rather niche outside of historical gaming circles.

 Dark Severance wrote:
Other than the main movie opening where we see the large army decimate human forces... I've always had the impression that the resistance would never be platoon sized groups. They would be 5-10 people, maybe 1-2 vehicles at the most doing hit and run attacks and skirmishes.

The beginning "flash-forward" Future War sequence of Terminator 2 is, indeed, the final push of the Human Resistance and the fall of Skynet. Scripted, but not filmed, due to budgetary constraints (remember, Terminator 2 was a 100 million dollar movie in 1991, making it one of the most expensive films ever made at that time), is the collapse of Skynet, the discovery by John Connor of the time dilation equipment, and the sending back of Kyle Reese, then the discovery that Skynet had also sent back a second Terminator... cut to the film beginning in "present day" (actually, the future of 1994, since the film was released in 1991... and the audience was supposed to be surprised that the Series 800 model 101 is actually a good guy, the Series 1000 liquid metal Terminator was a prototype bad guy etc, but the marketing for the movie had ruined any sense of surprise by that time)

 Manchu wrote:
I wonder how many human soldiers balances against a single T 800, nevermind a HK.

The T-800 is an infiltrator. It is not a ground combat model. The only reason Skynet has deployed the T-800 endoskeletons in ground combat during the opening sequence of Terminator 2 is because it is losing, and is throwing all available forces against the resistance forces. The infiltrator series is not designed to withstand shots from phased plasma rifles, which at that point, all of the resistance was using as it's base infantry weapon.

I can't help but immagine an army of Imperial Guard, armed with all plasma guns, facing down a force of Necron Warrriors.

Could just be a sign I've been playing this game too much lately

I hope I'll be able to field terminators with phased plasma rifles in a 40 watt range.

 Necros wrote:
I hope I'll be able to field terminators with phased plasma rifles in a 40 watt range.

Just what ya see pal.

Which, admittedly, isn't much right now...

 judgedoug wrote:

 Dark Severance wrote:
Other than the main movie opening where we see the large army decimate human forces... I've always had the impression that the resistance would never be platoon sized groups. They would be 5-10 people, maybe 1-2 vehicles at the most doing hit and run attacks and skirmishes.

The beginning "flash-forward" Future War sequence of Terminator 2 is, indeed, the final push of the Human Resistance and the fall of Skynet. Scripted, but not filmed, due to budgetary constraints (remember, Terminator 2 was a 100 million dollar movie in 1991, making it one of the most expensive films ever made at that time), is the collapse of Skynet, the discovery by John Connor of the time dilation equipment, and the sending back of Kyle Reese, then the discovery that Skynet had also sent back a second Terminator... cut to the film beginning in "present day" (actually, the future of 1994, since the film was released in 1991... and the audience was supposed to be surprised that the Series 800 model 101 is actually a good guy, the Series 1000 liquid metal Terminator was a prototype bad guy etc, but the marketing for the movie had ruined any sense of surprise by that time)

 Manchu wrote:
I wonder how many human soldiers balances against a single T 800, nevermind a HK.

The T-800 is an infiltrator. It is not a ground combat model. The only reason Skynet has deployed the T-800 endoskeletons in ground combat during the opening sequence of Terminator 2 is because it is losing, and is throwing all available forces against the resistance forces. The infiltrator series is not designed to withstand shots from phased plasma rifles, which at that point, all of the resistance was using as it's base infantry weapon.

Can I ask where you got that last bit of info from there Judgedoug? Very interesting!

And a small correction (to be a nerd!)- T2 was the most expensive film ever made when it was released, think it was then was overtaken by Waterworld later on.

I can't help but immagine an army of Imperial Guard, armed with all plasma guns, facing down a force of Necron Warrriors.

Could just be a sign I've been playing this game too much lately

You do realise.... ?

Oh, never mind

 Pacific wrote:

Can I ask where you got that last bit of info from there Judgedoug? Very interesting!

And a small correction (to be a nerd!)- T2 was the most expensive film ever made when it was released, think it was then was overtaken by Waterworld later on.

Whew, mix of info gleaned from the old Terminator 2 making-of book and the special features and commentaries on the Terminator 2 Special Edition Laserdisc box set. There were lots of cool storyboards of the rest of the final battle and the inside of Skynet.

But series 800 Terminators were absolutely not designed for front-line combat, as specifically designed by James Cameron. Of course, the other non-Cameron Terminator movies kinda did what they wanted. However, the series 600 as seen in Terminator 4 are a nod to Kyle Reese's monologue in The Terminator about the earlier models being easy to spot (rubber skin, etc). However, no infiltrator Terminators could ever fool a dog! Hence the dogs at the checkpoint in Kyle Reese's "flashbacks" in The Terminator (and dogs going crazy in the background whenever a Terminator is around in the films)

I knew it was the most expensive Hollywood production at the time, but I couldn't remember if some of the old Soviet movies like Waterloo and War & Peace were more expensive to make (adjusted for inflation)



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Oh, and to add some more trivia, the resistance was referred to as The Last Army in the storyboards and treatments.

 judgedoug wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
What was bad about it out of interest?

Have you ever looked at a game of chess being played and thought "What this game needs is a 'critical failure' rule"? No? Because apparently Alessio did.

Same concept as Nightmare Chess and Battle Chess and all the other variations of chess. There's a whole subgroup of chess enthusiasts who love weird takes on chess; Loka was just filling one of the market niches.

Speak no ill of Nightmare Chess - that is a great game supplement with beautiful artwork. It just doesn't handle the points values very well.

I found Nightmare Chess a lot of fun.

The only problem we had with it was the card that allowed the King to move 2 squares made the King supremely more difficult to checkmate.

Hope of the Future has all/most of the scenes I'm talking about.

Check the Deleted Scenes for awesome shots of scenes shot but not used for The Future War, and the Omitted Scenes for scenes not shot for The Future War.

http://hopeofthefuture.net/deletedscenes/t2del_index.html

This shows the omitted Centurion ground unit, as well as shots of the Hunter-Killer Bomber variant (seen in Terminator 3 I believe)
http://hopeofthefuture.net/deletedscenes/t2omit01.html

 Manchu wrote:
I wonder how many human soldiers balances against a single T 800, nevermind a HK.

Go watch the original Terminator movie. Seems like 1 T-800 is a match for a couple dozen of LAPD's finest, or a squad of Insurgents.

A T-1000? Even worse.

Or HK? You'd best have actual military hardware.

Tho I really wonder if they will have Motorcycles and Harvester...


I'd really like to see that Harvester in 28mm... Imagine how many Necron Titans would be purchased!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I wonder how many human soldiers balances against a single T 800, nevermind a HK.

Go watch the original Terminator movie. Seems like 1 T-800 is a match for a couple dozen of LAPD's finest, or a squad of Insurgents.

A T-1000? Even worse.

Or HK? You'd best have actual military hardware.

Righto, which is why the resistance acquires phased plasma rifles as quickly as possible, as even a non-combat series 800 Infiltrator is nigh impervious to small arms fire (though can be destroyed with automatic rifles and anti-materiel weapons such as .50 caliber rifles and .50 caliber or 12.7mm or 14.5mm machine guns).

The Last Army is actually equipped with RPGs as their anti-Ground HK weaponry because they are so numerous post-holocaust and easy to manufacture. An Aerial Hunter-Killer is downed by a Stinger missile in the opening Future War sequence of Terminator 2.

Another fun fact: in the Cameron background for the Future War, most of the northern hemisphere is nuked out. The Last Army consists of Australian soldiers, South and Latin American soldiers, African soldiers, etc. Very few North American/European/Russians survived. The common languages used by the Resistance were Swahili and Spanish.


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Ah, excerpt from the October 1990 Terminator 2 script, details lots of what I'm talking about

EXT. BATTLEFIELD - DAY THE BATTLE. Human troops in desperate combat with the Machines for possession of the dead Earth. The humans are a ragtag guerrilla army, made up mostly of troops from Southern Hemisphere countries... Africans, South Americans, Australians. The survivors of the nuclear war between the Northern Hemisphere super-powers. This is the reality of the post-Apocalyptic world. North of the equator we all die. We hear radio chatter in Spanish, interspersed with Swahili and other African languages. The occasional Aussie unit can be heard. The humans use RPG launchers, plasma-pulse battle rifles, and home-built armored personnel carriers. Skynet's weapons consist of the massive ground HKs (tank- like robot weapon-platforms) flying HKs, medium weight four-legged gun-pods called Centurions, the humanoid Terminators in various forms (600, 700, and 800 series), and small, fast-crawling kamikaze units called Silverfish that look like 5' long chrome centipedes. The Silverfish snake into gun emplacements and explode. SEQUENCE OF RAPID CUTS Explosions! Beam-weapons firing like searing strobe-lights. Energy bolts crisscrossing frame. Hand-launched Stinger missiles blowing an aerial HK out of the sky. A Sapper team tries to disable a ground HK. They get riddled by its rapidly tracking gun turret. A TEAM OF GUERRILLAS is being overrun by terminator endoskeletons in the ruins of a building. One by one, the soldiers fall in desperate hand-to-hand combat. One of the terminators looms over a wounded soldier, its battle rifle's barrel swinging down toward the guerrilla's head. The man stares defiantly into his death. Then... Suddenly, amazingly, the terminator stops, freezing in place... Aerial HKs tilt slowly, out of control, and crash to the ground. All the terminators stand frozen, unmoving, like a bunch of toy soldiers. The sudden silence takes the humans by surprise. They slowly emerge from their rat-warren emplacements and approach the frozen machines. We hear a voice speaking over a radio headset. It is filled with awed emotion. HEADSET VOICE (O.S.) ... The Colorado Division confirms that Skynet has been destroyed... The war is over... I repeat, Skynet has been destroyed. CAMERA TRACKS along the soldiers, bleeding, frostbitten, wrapped in rags... Valley Forge with better weapons. The wounded soldier in the ruins of the building cautiously approaches the chrome skeleton before him. He pushes against its chest with one finger. It topples with a crash and lies still. The soldier turns to his comrades with an idiot grin. Tears are streaming down his face. A mighty cheer goes up from the men and woman of the Last Army.

 adamsouza wrote:
I can't help but immagine an army of Imperial Guard, armed with all plasma guns, facing down a force of Necron Warrriors.

FWIW, my Imperial Guard army can resemble that remark. I own at least 3 dozen Guardsmen with Plasma Guns and Meltaguns, in addition to a dozen Missile Launcher teams.

As you can guess, my boys see a lot of MEQs on the other side of the table...

We'll have to wait and see if Alessio is actually going to finish out the rules properly this time.

But Warlord has improved its distribution since they teamed up with manufacturers.

I have a feeling that this game will end up like Starship troopers. A great game after some revisions. Not one to play all the time, but more like a board game that you bring out for a themed flight.

 Vertrucio wrote:
We'll have to wait and see if Alessio is actually going to finish out the rules properly this time.

But Warlord has improved its distribution since they teamed up with manufacturers.

I have a feeling that this game will end up like Starship troopers. A great game after some revisions. Not one to play all the time, but more like a board game that you bring out for a themed flight.

I'm still confused by this. Alessio Cavatore has written four of my favorite games of all time: Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game, Kings of War, Mordheim, and Bolt Action. I can't imagine a finer pedigree.
What does Warlord's manufacturing capabilities have to do with it's distribution? In the US at least, they are distributed by themselves, Warpath, and Alliance. Dunno about ACD. But that's a pretty great distribution network.
Interestingly, my all-time favorite miniatures game is Starship Troopers (Andy Chambers). excluding the wacky army books, the core rules and core army lists make for the best, tightest, most tactically challenging and rewarding miniatures game I've ever played. Played it for years as my #1 minis game.


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Regardless of rules designer, my main concern is that it is the Terminator Genisys license - I have no idea how accurate the background will be to the Cameron Terminator stuff, which is my favorite. At least T4 had lots of nods to the Cameron background, but T:G may just rewrite it all and get rid of all the great stuff that I loved about the Cameron Terminator Future War stuff.

judgedoug wrote:
Regardless of rules designer, my main concern is that it is the Terminator Genisys license - I have no idea how accurate the background will be to the Cameron Terminator stuff, which is my favorite. At least T4 had lots of nods to the Cameron background, but T:G may just rewrite it all and get rid of all the great stuff that I loved about the Cameron Terminator Future War stuff.

This is my biggest concern too. If I can ignore all the new stuff and game based on T1 and T2 then it will be a mighty tempting game.

That was an extremely cool script extract Judgedoug, thanks for posting it!

Don't know how I could possibly be more excited about this game - go and listen to some Guns'n'Roses perhaps?

It'll be hard to screw up endoskeleton models, and even if the Last Army/Resistance soldiers look like crap there's plenty of other manufacturers of rag-tag resistance looking guys.

SO, even if for some reason the rules suck, hopefully scads of cheap plastic endoskeletons will be had!

And a cheap plastic tracked HK!

 CptJake wrote:
And a cheap plastic tracked HK!

There's already a plastic 1/32 Ground HK/Recognizer and a plastic Aerial HK... but we neeeeeeed 1/56 28mm scale!!!

Most reviews of the Pegasus aerial HK state that it is effectively 1/56 scale or close to it. The tracked HK is too huge, though.

I think we'll definitely like the look of the models - I don't think "Genisys" will be changing that too much.

But I think the timeline is getting all sort of messed with/changed/etc.

Along the lines of how much the Star Trek Movie Universe got changed...

The trailer was pretty lame but now I hope the movie will do well because Cavatore/Warlord have a proven track record and the franchise is awesome even despite some really terrible entires. So I doubt there will be any T-X or what have you. But the initial box will almost certainly have great looking T-800 endoskeletons and Last Army guys regardless of any rebooted background elements. I would bet there will also be some kind of vehicle in the box as well as an 'enfleshed' (i.e., Arnold) T-800 that can be incorporated into army lists for either side.