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 Tigramans wrote:

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:


Haven't you read Codex: Dark Angels? They've got army-wide Stubborn, which basically IS part of their "Chapter tactics", just like SW having Counter-Attack, or BA's Furious Charge.

You're talking up Stubborn alot as a chapter tactic, but man, the thing is, I just don't think it's a very *good* chapter tactic. I'd happily take something else honestly.

I didn't mean it literally, but the idea is basically the same, but they can't change it, since it's a codex dedicated to a single chapter. That's why the quotation marks.
And quality of chapter tactics or special rules are subjective. I personally find Fearless a great one, and I'd gladly have it for my marines, if they ever had a chance, otherwise than via Chaplain of course.

Fearless is okay for marines. They don't need it cause they can't get swept though - in many cases ATSKNF is better than fearless. If you are holding an objective fearless is better. It's not good enough to be a chapter tactic. Fearless would be great for something like ork hordes or IG. With Marines though is absolutely wasted.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If I did DA, I'd take on board what most people have suggested here (that is, if I didn't merge them with C:SM), except the extra 1st Founding Relics and plasma buffs.

I feel that the plasma buff as a straight mastercrafting isn't a great idea, but I would be up for rerolling to stop being wounded by the Gets Hot!. I think the weapon should still overheat, just not killing the wielder.

If we give the DA relics for being a First Founder, the other 1st Founders (BA, UM, IF, IH, WS etc.) should get Relics as well, which would kind of defeat the purpose. There isn't really a reason why DA should get Relics and the others shouldn't. Which brings it back to DA could be more simply merged to C:SM and get their special units as a Chapter Tactic bonus.

No, Dark Angels have a lot more relics, probably a side effect of the Rock storing many ancient artifacts and probably having STC's stored on. But there's even a specific Chapter, the Consecrators, which is decked out in relic armor.

I'm curious. Why do people seem to think stubborn is not a good chapter trait?

Also here's all the relics from the Rock:

Foe Smiter:
S4 Ap4 Assault 3, Master Crafted

Lions Roar:
S7 Ap2 Assault 1, Blast, Get's Hot, Master Crafted, One use only

Mace Of Redeption:
S+3 Ap3 Blind, Concussive <Bane of Traitor>

Monster Slayer of Caliban:
Roll a D6
1 - S:User AP3
2-4 S+1 AP3
5-6 S+2 AP3 Instant Death

Shroud of Heroes:

When unit is solo - FNP + Shrouded
When unit is not solo - FNP


You can buy a Las Cannon for Foe-Smiter/Lion's Roar.

You can almost buy a Rhnio for the mace and the Monster Slayer

And the shroud of heroes.... you can almost buy a scout squad

I'm curious. Why do people seem to think stubborn is not a good chapter trait?

You did manage to point out that their HQ's are fearless due to Inner Circle, and can pass that on to anyone they'd want to, there's also the fact that stubborn as a whole relies on you losing in general and doesn't do much to help you out beyond leadership.

I mean let's compare the others, not counting the unit specific traits that make them vastly better (such as Priests and fast tanks, or Space Wolves overall different unit wargears and special weaponry)

Blood Angels: Furious Charge
Space Wolves: Counter-attack
Dark Angels: Stubborn.
UM: Reroll's to specific units
IF: Reroll 1's with bolters, Devastators get Tank Hunters and +1 to building damage rolls.
Salamanders: Master-crafted on characters, reroll flame weapon wounds and twin linked flamers
RG: Stealth on first turn and scouts, jump packs can be used in assault and movement and reroll HoW wounds
Iron Hands: FNP (6+), IWND on vehicles
WS: Ignores DT, S5 HoW, +1 Jink, everyone gets hit and run
BT: Rerolls to hit and rending in challenges, units have AW and Crusader.

Most if not all of these have benefits outside of taking damage or leadership checks, which is very rare, as a result stubborn on it's own is a vastly terrible choice due to that. ATSKNF already ignores plenty of leadership related things to begin with and already helps you out, so you are gaining a very tiny advantage that may not actually be that beneficial (sometimes it's better to run away and regroup)

I guess you have a point. I always see anything that makes my guys have a better resolve as a bonus to be cherished. I hate having my guys move off an objective last minute and lose me the game.

Bring back the old look and fluff, remove Stubborn and make their Chapter tactics better.

And get rid of the goddamn Shroud.

So, what chapter tactic would you guys give the DA?

I like what FW does with the HH legion rules but I'm curious as to what you guys think would be a good fit for the first!

 Inkubas wrote:
So, what chapter tactic would you guys give the DA?

I like what FW does with the HH legion rules but I'm curious as to what you guys think would be a good fit for the first!

In Deathwatch Dark Angels are generally viewed as shooty.

Army-wide Banner of Devastation effects would go a long way into making them playable.

 Inkubas wrote:
So, what chapter tactic would you guys give the DA?

I like what FW does with the HH legion rules but I'm curious as to what you guys think would be a good fit for the first!

Well earlier MajorStoffer suggested:
Fury of the Legion. Trademark Horus Heresy rule for tactical squads where they can fire their bolters twice at the same target at the expensive of not being able to overwatch or shoot the next turn. Reflective of their focus on ranged warfare and legion-esque structure.

I kinda like that one. It would buff greenwing some, make DA tacticals useful as well as actually "tactical" and none of the other chapters have that sort of thing right now. I'm biased though. I firmly believe basic troops need a buff in the DA because right now there is almost no reason to ever take them. In most of the armies I see, no one ever actually wants to take very many troops outside of fluffy reasons. I'd just love to see DA have really good greenwing units so I could take a bunch of different units and really feel like part of a legion without crippling myself strategically. Also, again, none of the other armies really use normal troopy units as their backbone, usually relying on elites, HQ's or whatnot for the majority of their hardest hitting units, so it would make DA different. I feel like DA already has some really powerful selective elite choices in RW and DW each also. It's not like they'd take a backseat or anything, I just want a good reason to take some regular units.

Course I also still feel like having access to those older more powerful 30k style bolters would be really powerful as well. That wouldn't even need to be a chapter tactic, just a fluff thing since the DA have been stockpiling all sorts of ancient gear deep in their monastery.

Man you guys are making me wanna paint some DA right now.

Stubborn is awful because it forces your units that you don't want to be in cc, to remain there.

This is especially true on models with atsknf, because there is no risk to them failing the morale check anyway.

It allows enemy units to effectively hide from your shooting phase by engaging your units who have a high chance to remain in cc despite any loses they take.

Actually had a few more ideas:

How about double special weapon options for tactical squads? Would make them slightly more mobile-shooty as you could double plasma gun them.

Another idea for a future unit: Some sort of plasma artillery. It'd basically be a Legion Rapier Laser Battery but would function like the Land Speeder Vengeance's weapon except twinlinked in either fire mode. Fits the fluff, gives us Dark Angel players a viable alternative to not having access to Thunderfire Cannons.

The Greenwing seems to be a lackluster version of the most lackluster part of the SM codex

Sadly tactical marines, like terminators, indeed much of the Space Marine Codex, are virtually worthless because Games Workshop keeps setting their 2nd Edition options as the definitive state of Space Marine equipment.

Have tactical squads able to be fielded at five men with a special and heavy weapon (or two special weapons), and terminators equipped with two heavy weapons in five man squads, which roughly accords to the modern military where force is concentrated in small squads, and they might actually be useful again. As it stands the bike squad, with its ability to be fully equipped at three men, and troops with five, is the best option because of that concentration of force (relentless and their mobility are good features too, that justifies their 50% per model increase over a tactical marine). Bolters cannot hurt anything but the weakest transports, making them useless on the modern 40k battlefield, but the models are priced as though they're actually good at something other than being ablative wounds for the special weapons.

Don't forget that our terminators can be equipped with plasma cannons.

To be honest I've not seen a Deathwing squad equipped with a plasma cannon yet.

 Inkubas wrote:
Don't forget that our terminators can be equipped with plasma cannons.

230+ points for one plasma cannon, and?

Chapter tactic "Cold hearted" for plasma based weapons
Characters can reroll "gets hot" and passing a leadership test can pass on the "Gets hot" reroll to another member of their squad
HQ's has a 6 inch aura that allows rerolls on "Gets hot" for plasma weapons.
Vehicles with plasma has reroll "gets hot" on plasma based weapons as standard (Includes dreads)

Deathwing assault ability to forgo shooting for assault for a squad if it passes a leadership test.

I think Dark angles would be best redone as chapter in C:SM and a supplement codex that gave us a couple of ravenwing and deathwing formations, like the harlequins for Eldar/DE. Our Chapter Tactics in C:SM would give us the re-rolling gets hot and preferred enemy CSM or something to that nature. The supplement would have all the DA angle specific stuff, ie black knights, darkshrouds, DW knights, the god awful flyers (hopefully with the necessary tweaks).

This will allow the players to field what are what make dark angles unique, ravenwing and deathwing, and have access to everything in the full C:SM. Its the win-win for GW and DA players because DA players will get to buy all the thunderfire cannons and centurions that they previously didn't have access too.

Well outside of the special RW units you can play a better verison already with C:SM lol.

Add terminators as troops if your captain has terminator armor and C:SM would offer the whole DA codex But better.