How Can Games Workshop Improve Dark Angels?

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**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.

That.

**Phyrekzhogos**

MajorStoffer wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm personally for rolling them in (along with blood angels) and normalizing prices and giving them a chapter tactic which is actually worse than even the worst C:SM ones.

If they are to be kept separate (and they will be) they should emphasize their advantage in Dark Age technology; their whole kitsch is secrets and more archaeotech than most (as well as being organized more like a Legion than a Chapter). So, aside from obligatory price normalizations, how about this?

0-1 Jetbike Command Squad. If you have Sammael, you can take a unit of Ravenwing jetbikes; requires a fluff adjustment, ("As the darkness of the void closes in on the imperium, the Dark Angels' trademark secrecy becomes less dominant, and devices thought lost re-emerge from the vaults of the Rock..." or something like that). Heavily armed, durable jetbikes, would create a new kit to sell and be backed up by the fluff to a degree (Sammael's bike having been destroyed several times, only for a new one to re-appear, i.e. they either have a ton of the damned things in vaults or can build them in limited numbers).

Volkite. Limited availability special weapon; command squads/tactical squads only (Greenwing need some love). For those not familiar, the "standard" volkite gun (they range from pistols to superheavy-scale armament, I'd say only the "Volkite Charger" - a rifle-sized version) is St5 Ap5 assault 2, and gets additional auto-hits equal to the number of wounds it does, but they are not open ended. Crowd control and an assault weapon; decent buff to basic infantry for the DA.

Fury of the Legion. Trademark Horus Heresy rule for tactical squads where they can fire their bolters twice at the same target at the expensive of not being able to overwatch or shoot the next turn. Reflective of their focus on ranged warfare and legion-esque structure

Additional dreadnought/Predator armament options. Borrow from FW here; heavy conversion beamers, plasma executioners and other advanced weapons which are "Relics" for other chapters are standard upgrades available to core DA units with some limitations - no more than X per list or whathave you, but more than the 1 per allowed to other chapters.

There, you've got a more defined "character" to justify snowflakeness, but fits their fluff somewhat and doesn't result, in theory, in really cheesecake looking models, and provides a nice line of three kits for GW to release; a re-done predator with more options, imperial Jetbikes and a DA-specific tactical squad with a new kind of special weapon. Fits their model, and would make the army more interesting in my opinion.

**Desubot**

EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.

Make riptides ion cannon ap3

**ClassicCarraway**

1. Improve the fliers, make them actually fit their roles.
2. Formations will replace the FOC modifiers, that's a given. Have 1 big detachment, but also have Wing formations that can be used as stand alone and give appropriate bonuses..
3. Have 3 wings (not 2) : Deathwing, Ravenwing, and bring back the old Ironwing!
4. Generic HQs in addition to the unique ones.
5. Beef up the chapter tactic. The suggestion to reroll Gets Hot is a good one.
6. Do not roll in any Codex:SM units. DA are a unique army and should stay that way. Given that SW and BA didn't gain any C:SM units, I don't think there is any real chance of them doing it with DA.
7. Give them their primarch on the battlefield!!!! He's the only on that is 100% confirmed as being alive, its time to bring that bad boy out to play!

**Davor**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.
That.

And how would that fix Dark Angels?

**Exergy**

EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.

or just remove them entirely

**Desubot**

Exergy wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.

or just remove them entirely

Lets remove tau while we are at it.

**rhinosaur**

Since their primary mission is to "hunt the fallen" then maybe a tactical squad or ravenwing /deathwing option for just that one type of special ammo. Used to be r18 str4 ap3 gets hot RF.

Make an option for plasma weapons mastercrafted for 5pts each. Kind of like salamanders with melta/flame.

(assuming these are still around in 7th? I only play 5th)

**Rippy**

By rolling them in to the C:SM.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.
That.

And how would that fix Dark Angels?

Gives them access to more stuff.

**Jayden63**

Beware of giving them too much additional high volume AP3 or lower weapons in any form. Sure it might help against the odd xenos, but other marine armies will cry fowl and we will hear even more bitching about how worthless PA is out there because of all the AP3 or lower guns.

I really wonder who bitches louder when two gravcent deathstars face off against each other. Who is the unfair/cheesy one in that match up?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Davor wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.
That.

And how would that fix Dark Angels?

I cannot tell you if that will fix them. But if it does not, you will be saying “Fix the Space Marines” instead of “Fix the Dark Angels”. And we all know space marine get a LOT of attention from GW, so…

**Inkubas**

I really like the idea of having the 1st Legion (DA chapter) have access to older technology and buffing the idea of plasma. I feel like there needs to be minor tweaks here and there and some outright changes to make them more of a playable faction. One option would be to roll them into the SM codex and give them access to formations and different loadouts. However, I don't think that is the route that GW is going based on how they seem to be creating more codexes not less. And while I would like to see re-roll on plasma based weapons, I'm not too concerned with having my PC devastators blow themselves up as I usually put in a Librarian with divination anyhow.

My major area of concerns is how the army plays out and has synergy. It doesn't. The Greenwing seems to be a lackluster version of the SM codex. Aside from the Centurians, Grav weapons, Thunderfire cannons etc. There's no real Umph with going green. 1st company is an option but too costly for any tournament play and too specialized for any smaller game due to the points and what you get. This is compounded by having so many things that are AP2. Ravenwing is a good army and I take the comparison between them and white scars with a grain of salt but are too expensive/ineffective solo.

What I'd like to see is more structure to what we already have. Our models look amazing and are fun to paint, customize and personalize. Our fluff is pretty damn good. So, why is it that we have units that are more likely to kill themselves then to harm an opponent (Vengeance - looking at you bud), don't sync well with the army (Talon), are made for AA but are over priced anti-infantry (Nephlim - you can't be both!), are never played (Asmodai), and have relic that make no sense whatsoever (a tattered FNP cloak, really?).

**Silverthorne**

I'd give chaplains an ability, like a LD debuff bubble for enemies v that increased as they killed characters in challenges and give them portaracks standard.

Bring the lion back as a LOW but have it be a secret he has returned, so if he's in the force, no IoM allies at all.

**Inkubas**

Or you have to kill your allies on turn 5

**Tigramans**

- Give Azrael Eternal Warrior
- Make an overhaul for the fliers and give a reason to take 'em
- Give grav weaponry or Centurions... or both

That's it.

I can't understand how people say that the DA are the bottom feeder codices. They're one heck of a buff army!

- You can spread 4++ almost anywhere you wish (Conversion Field hijinks or Azrael)
- The banners are great (not to mention the Banner of Devastation)
- Divination for Librarians
- HQ's are Fearless (HELLO, I WISH MY VANILLAS HAD THIS)
- DA bikes and termies do things better than vanilla ones with a considerable price (auto-Hit and Run, plasma weaponry on bikes, Deathwing alpha striking and wargear mixing among Terminators)
- DOZER BLADE ON LAND RAIDERS
- Capable Command Squads in every flavours, including Terminators
- 3W Chaplains
- Army-wide Stubborn
- Decent Warlord Traits (of which Azrael CHOOSES)

- And most of all: makes allying with other Imperial armies a dandy time. You can make 'em either durable or shooty, whatever rocks your ship.

**Reinokarite**

Except vanilla marines have Divination too. And how exectly da can make allies more shooty? Scared Standard of Devastations works only on DA bolters.

Anf wile DA Codex have not bad rules on most of the units (bar Vengeance and both fliers) said units are cost more than their counterparts in vanilla codex, despite that aditional rules could be made DA chapter tactics.

**Tigramans**

Reinokarite wrote:
Except vanilla marines have Divination too. And how exectly da can make allies more shooty? Scared Standard of Devastations works only on DA bolters.

Anf wile DA Codex have not bad rules on most of the units (bar Vengeance and both fliers) said units are cost more than their counterparts in vanilla codex, despite that aditional rules could be made DA chapter tactics.

No they don't. Only Tigurius has access to it, so it doesn't count, since it's a chapter-exclusive feature ...UNLESS you're playing Mantis Warriors. [EDIT]
For any other chapter, it's no go.

DA, however, DO have a general access to Divination, ergo a possibility making other allies shootier. (Prescience, you know). Fine, you won't shoot more, but better.
Unless "shooty" only means "more shots per model", then it is a different story, but YMMV on this kind of matters. It's a xeno term anyway

**Xenomancers**

Tigramans wrote:
Reinokarite wrote:
Except vanilla marines have Divination too. And how exectly da can make allies more shooty? Scared Standard of Devastations works only on DA bolters.

Anf wile DA Codex have not bad rules on most of the units (bar Vengeance and both fliers) said units are cost more than their counterparts in vanilla codex, despite that aditional rules could be made DA chapter tactics.

No they don't. Only Tigurius has access to it, so it doesn't count, since it's a chapter-exclusive feature ...UNLESS you're playing Mantis Warriors. [EDIT]
For any other chapter, it's no go.

DA, however, DO have a general access to Divination, ergo a possibility making other allies shootier. (Prescience, you know). Fine, you won't shoot more, but better.
Unless "shooty" only means "more shots per model", then it is a different story, but YMMV on this kind of matters. It's a xeno term anyway

Tigurius is THE BEST psyker in the game minus FW. Hands down. He certainly "counts." You can take him in your white scars or imperial fists army if you want...nothing prevents this - he just wont get your chapter tactic benefit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about not arguing that DA are okay...they are not okay. They are fun to play with and thats about it.

They have no grav
They pay more for the same thing across the board
No centurions
No thunderfire Cannons
No storm talons
No storm ravens
No sterngard
No eternal warrior HQ

We don't even get fast attack drop pods (which could help tremendously)
Special characters are required to be used to run effective army comps and they suck - over costed.
Whats worst! Meaningless chapter tactics...all marines have TSKNF anyways!

Heres my fix ideas
Make ravenwing support squads and DA term squads troops. Reduce the cost of Terms and bikes

Fix the chapter tactics...
New chapter tactics -
All units with DA chapter tactics have:
*re-roll 1's to hit with plasma weapons, for plasma blasts - 1's may be re-rolled for overheat.
*Preferred enemy chaos space marines
*DA Land speeders get +1 jink save.

Reduce the cost of LS vengeance to 115 points and give +1 HP.
Allow access to storm raven.
Bring DA flyers in line with storm talon.

Rework DA vets. Make them comparable to sterngard in power but give them something unique maybe instead of combie weapons each member can take a plasma pistol and power weapon for 15 points and 3 can take plasma guns.

Allow plasma talon bike upgrade for HQ's that also grants skilled rider.

I'd love to see some changes like this.

**Tigramans**

Xenomancers wrote:

Tigurius is THE BEST psyker in the game minus FW. Hands down. He certainly "counts." You can take him in your white scars or imperial fists army if you want...nothing prevents this - he just wont get your chapter tactic benefit.

Then I wouldn't be playing with my dudes, I'd be playing with Ultramarines allies, which is not the same thing. Besides, Tigurius is an overrated character. His only benefits are level 3 psyker and Divination, otherwise he's too expensive in points for a 3+ save 2W character.

GW can't write proper codices, and it shows, but it's obvious already. Either give same Psychic disciplines to all Chapters, or give no specific disciplines at all.

Stupid Ultra-favoritism...

**ZebioLizard2**

Tigramans wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Tigurius is THE BEST psyker in the game minus FW. Hands down. He certainly "counts." You can take him in your white scars or imperial fists army if you want...nothing prevents this - he just wont get your chapter tactic benefit.

Then I wouldn't be playing with my dudes, I'd be playing with Ultramarines allies, which is not the same thing. Besides, Tigurius is an overrated character. His only benefits are level 3 psyker and Divination, otherwise he's too expensive in points for a 3+ save 2W character.

GW can't write proper codices, and it shows, but it's obvious already. Either give same Psychic disciplines to all Chapters, or give no specific disciplines at all.

Stupid Ultra-favoritism...

..You just listed it as a benefit towards DA and now your complaining of Ultra-Favoritism because he can take it?

- HQ's are Fearless (HELLO, I WISH MY VANILLAS HAD THIS)

Is this really a benefit? Being unable to go to ground and already starting with ATSKNF is kinda odd.

- DA bikes and termies do things better than vanilla ones with a considerable price (auto-Hit and Run, plasma weaponry on bikes, Deathwing alpha striking and wargear mixing among Terminators)

Deathwing alpha striking doesn't really do much, and wargear mixing while nice tends to dilute what the squad actually goes for.

- Army-wide Stubborn

As a chapter tactic? Not so much, and once again still ASTKNF

**Xenomancers**

Tigramans wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Tigurius is THE BEST psyker in the game minus FW. Hands down. He certainly "counts." You can take him in your white scars or imperial fists army if you want...nothing prevents this - he just wont get your chapter tactic benefit.

Then I wouldn't be playing with my dudes, I'd be playing with Ultramarines allies, which is not the same thing. Besides, Tigurius is an overrated character. His only benefits are level 3 psyker and Divination, otherwise he's too expensive in points for a 3+ save 2W character.

GW can't write proper codices, and it shows, but it's obvious already. Either give same Psychic disciplines to all Chapters, or give no specific disciplines at all.

Stupid Ultra-favoritism...

I do agree with you. Divination should be available to all librarians. I Thought if you took Tigarius with an Imperial fists army - it wouldn't need to be an ally - it would still be part of your CAD if you wanted. They are in the same codex and nothing says you cant mix chapter tactics int he same detachment does it? Just say Tiggy is your forces Libby - rename him - paint him orange. He loses nothing from not gaining chapter tactics - he has his own too!

Also no - I have to disagree with you. Tiggy is the best because hes a lvl 3 that rerolls all his spells. and rerolls his failed psyckic tests and rerolls reserves. Hes insanely good. Eldrad from the eldar a lvl 4 envys him and costs more.

**Silverthorne**

They shouldn't be an ally buff army, which is what they are now. That's basically the opposite of what they should be.

**Tigramans**

Xenomancers wrote:

I do agree with you. Divination should be available to all librarians. I Thought if you took Tigarius with an Imperial fists army - it wouldn't need to be an ally - it would still be part of your CAD if you wanted. They are in the same codex and nothing says you cant mix chapter tactics int he same detachment does it? Just say Tiggy is your forces Libby - rename him - paint him orange. He loses nothing from not gaining chapter tactics - he has his own too!

Also no - I have to disagree with you. Tiggy is the best because hes a lvl 3 that rerolls all his spells. and rerolls his failed psyckic tests and rerolls reserves. Hes insanely good. Eldrad from the eldar a lvl 4 envys him and costs more.

I totally forgot the re-roll hijinks. My bad.
But you can't STILL take desired named characters to your army as you wish (unless they belong to the same chapter), since they are locked to their specific chapter. For example, you can't slap Kor'sarro Khan into Iron Hands CAD just because. He has his own Chapter where he belongs, and rules PROHIBIT mixing them, which was acceptable in the last edition codex. Allying is meant to compensate this, but even then, it is not the same thing.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

..You just listed it as a benefit towards DA and now your complaining of Ultra-Favoritism because he can take it?

Wrong. Not every vanilla marine chapter can have access to Divination. Only Ultramarines (counting out FW stuff), hence Ultra-favoritism.
I personally play Sentinels of Terra. Forgive me if I've missed something, but I'd like to know how I'd get a psyker with Divination to my list, excluding allies or other chapter tactics.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Is this really a benefit? Being unable to go to ground and already starting with ATSKNF is kinda odd.

This is a personal preference, I understand that. I am strictly against abandoning position or escaping the combat. Hold the line, stop cowering, and face the challenge or die trying, that is the way of a warrior. I'd rather make my units DIE than let them run away, but I don't think there's a rule for it. That's why I first fell in love with the old Black Templars codex in the late 5th Edition: they became Fearless when entered into close combat, and that was awesome.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Deathwing alpha striking doesn't really do much, and wargear mixing while nice tends to dilute what the squad actually goes for.

Deathwing Terminators are automatically MUCH better compared to the shooting vanilla Terminators, since they are actually mixed. The vanilla codex splits them into two "should-be" highly specialised squads. Granted, the Assault termies truly get their stuff done, but the other side almost never. Do you know why? Because of their lousy 5+ invulnerable save, and sergeant's COMPLETE lack of wargear options.

Oh yeah... and they're FEARLESS. I'd love to get here as well. No more panicking when you're trying to empty an objective with those guys.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
As a chapter tactic? Not so much, and once again still ASTKNF

Haven't you read Codex: Dark Angels? They've got army-wide Stubborn, which basically IS part of their "Chapter tactics", just like SW having Counter-Attack, or BA's Furious Charge.

**Big Blind Bill**

DW
Drop terminators to 35 points a model at mostst (imo they should have buffs and cost less than other SM terminators. Other chapters get grav centurions or TWC, DW should get good terminators).
2 heavy weapons per 5 members.
Drop all heavy weapon prices by 5 points
Purchasable special rules would be cool (like old BT terminators)
Allow terminators to immediately run after deepstriking so they don't get intercepted by a pie plate.
Re-evaluate Belial's cost.
Make terminators command squads more attractive
Let DW take FW landraider variants as dedicated transports.
Let DA and successor captains/ chapter masters unlock terminators for a price.
Cheaper landraiders maybe?

RW
Points reduction across the board.
Add grav guns.
Make teleport homers an option that you can pay more points for.
Make the RW champion a bit better.
Let DA and successor captains/ chapter masters unlock bikes for a price.
(Not too many changes needed for RW, they are the strongest option atm after all, they just need a few tweaks to bring them into line with SM WS bikes).

General DA
Better chapter tactic. Stubborn only helps the opponent most of the time.
Improve veterans, by alot, How awful they are compared to the sternguard that they replace isn't even funny.
Scout prices to match SM.
Re-do the flyers to let them be competitive
Pretend that the darkshroud/ Vengeance speeder never had a model, reintroduce a new one with much cheaper prices and better rules.
Allow the PFG to create a radius around a transport vehicle again - but only for DA vehicles.
Totally redo asmodai.
Get some usable relics

**BrotherGecko**

Bring back Grand Masters as an HQ option that can unlock RW or DW armies along with Sammael and Beliel.

Make Sammael and Beliel better or cheaper.

Bring back RW attack bike squadrons with possibly new weapon options. With maybe and updated kit.

Add a RW and DW detachment. Which formats itself to allow maxium theme an use of the respective detachments. Allowing DA to ally with itself.

Drop RW and DW way down in points. Bring DA in line with the C:SM. Maybe even adding chapter tactics for successors and a few special characters.

Complete overhaul of both flyers. Neither is good at anything.

Complete overhaul of both special landspeeders.Neither is particularly good.

Fix company veterans. They don't seem to be good at anything in particular.

Come out with a new 10 tactical squad box like BA. Update the RW biker box like the Black Knights.

**Phyrekzhogos**

Inkubas wrote:
Or you have to kill your allies on turn 5

Bwahahhahaha, Oh man THIS. Yeah. <straight face> I'd totally do that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tigramans wrote:

Haven't you read Codex: Dark Angels? They've got army-wide Stubborn, which basically IS part of their "Chapter tactics", just like SW having Counter-Attack, or BA's Furious Charge.

You're talking up Stubborn alot as a chapter tactic, but man, the thing is, I just don't think it's a very *good* chapter tactic. I'd happily take something else honestly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big Blind Bill wrote:

RW
Make teleport homers an option that you can pay more points for.

I really like that suggestion in particular. I don't understand why they already get it mandatory, and I assume they pay a points hike for it. It really really oughta be optional. Good suggestion.

I'm still voting for relic greenwing extra shooty bolters though. I wanna see some standard troopers get a buff for once too.

**Sgt_Smudge**

If I did DA, I'd take on board what most people have suggested here (that is, if I didn't merge them with C:SM), except the extra 1st Founding Relics and plasma buffs.

I feel that the plasma buff as a straight mastercrafting isn't a great idea, but I would be up for rerolling to stop being wounded by the Gets Hot!. I think the weapon should still overheat, just not killing the wielder.

If we give the DA relics for being a First Founder, the other 1st Founders (BA, UM, IF, IH, WS etc.) should get Relics as well, which would kind of defeat the purpose. There isn't really a reason why DA should get Relics and the others shouldn't. Which brings it back to DA could be more simply merged to C:SM and get their special units as a Chapter Tactic bonus.

**NuggzTheNinja**

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there are ways to improve them.
Termies and Flyers are too expensive.
Raven- and Deathwing should be more effectively at the battlefield.

Giving Ravenwing skilled rider would work, and the Dakka Banner should absolutely work on Storm Bolters with some kind of advantage over bolters. Making them salvo 2/4 Twin Linked would be pretty nice. As it is, Deathwing has no way of dealing with anything outside of CC.

Giving them something like 5+ FNP on the turn they Deathwing Assault would help their durability. Dakka banner synergy would be very nice as above. And obviously they need a points reduction - they shouldn't cost any more than 40 points ea.

**Tigramans**

Phyrekzhogos wrote:

Tigramans wrote:

Haven't you read Codex: Dark Angels? They've got army-wide Stubborn, which basically IS part of their "Chapter tactics", just like SW having Counter-Attack, or BA's Furious Charge.

You're talking up Stubborn alot as a chapter tactic, but man, the thing is, I just don't think it's a very *good* chapter tactic. I'd happily take something else honestly.

I didn't mean it literally, but the idea is basically the same, but they can't change it, since it's a codex dedicated to a single chapter. That's why the quotation marks.
And quality of chapter tactics or special rules are subjective. I personally find Fearless a great one, and I'd gladly have it for my marines, if they ever had a chance, otherwise than via Chaplain of course.

**SRSFACE**

All it really needs is a points cost adjustment, and access to Grav weaponry.

Bikers should just be same point cost as bikers in any other space marine army (21 instead of 27). They do get some pretty spiffy special rules; chalk it up to their chapter tactic rather than forcing a price increase. Same goes with Deathwing Assault for units in terminator armor.

Only hard rules changes I think would be necessary is on the Land Speeder Vengeance (and by association the Darkshroud), and the Nephilim Jetfighter's missiles, and on the named HQ guys. I agree with what everyone's said about them so far. A couple of my own personal things:

LSV/DS should be tougher than a default landspeeder. They are significantly larger after all. Make them 12/12/10 or give them 3 HP, or better yet both. Also with the LSV: Currently the weapon is worth a whopping 90 points alone because the model is literally a regular landspeeder with the plasma battery attached, and that's the points cost difference. That's just silly. No single weapon is worth 90 points on it's own, especially that one. Drop the cost to something reasonable, as well as naturally giving it twin-linked. It is represented as double-barreled like most TL weapons after all.

Rather than make the Blades of Reason AP3 for Asmodai, I'd rather they gave it something like Rending, or it's own rule that does something like "Enemies make their armor saves at a value one worse than their default armor value. Things with Sv 6+ would therefore have no armor save." It's NOT a power sword, but it still needs a little something to make it worth using.

Seeing as they are doing away with a lot of the "X unit makes Y unit a troops choice" things that were big in 6th, Sammael and Belial need a significant upgrade. Belial right now is simply a Captain with a boss power sword, but costs sooooooo much more than a regular captain with equivalent gear costs. Sammael at least is really unique, but a 200 point BS5 plasma cannon is not worth the price of admission.

Oh, while I'm at it: Azrael should have Orbital Bombardment like codex marine Chapter Masters have. I get why Dante and Ragnar Blackmane don't have it (doesn't suit their style) but the Dark Angels definitely are not above the nuclear option.