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Let's imagine for a moment that the team who designs the 40k codexes is browsing this forum for ideas. What changes would you implore take place for the dark angels codex?

If you have no opinion on the codex then throw an idea out for your codex. Please give reasons as to why and make reasonably sound suggestions. No T5 2 wound 2++ 4+FNP terminators for 90 points.

In no order:
Modify the land speeder vengeance so it won't kill itself shooting
Make Azreal the lord of war and give him an ap 2 weapon with eternal warrior
Change nephilim missiles to S8 AP 2 and or reduce cost
Reduce cost of terminators (this goes for all space marines)
Make Asmodai have an ap 3 weapon there is NO reason to field him
Improve the Dark Talon so its either worth the points or reduce the points
Allow apothecary to carry pistols

As a player these changes make me want to buy more models and make sense from both a game play perspective and narrative play. I can accept no special ammo and no grav weapons (no idea why but not to important IMO) but I can't imagine why I would buy Asmodai, ever field any air unit, or bring the self destructive machine that is the vengeance model.

In all the youtube vids I watch people see to only play the DA in a few standard ways, all Deathwing or all ravenwing being the main ones I see. I am, admittedly, no expert, but I think there should be some formation bonuses and chapter tactics that lend themselves tomore diverse unit play. I feel like Stubborn or whatever its called now is not good enough as a chapter tactic, I'd like to see something that either benefits them in shooting or buffs their use of plasma weapons since they seem to have access to alot of that.

Maybe make the plasma weapons cheaper?
buff the nephilim definitely
Feel like Ravenwing should have skilled rider
Also, deathwing knights could stand to be powerful in more than just the first assault. I mean, they're already fairly slow mobility wise.
Land Speeder vengeance needs to not blow itself up.
cheaper speeders or something?

Other than that I guess I just feel like they need a particular direction. They seem to sorta generically do what alot of other marines also do already. I'd sorta like to see more shooty rules for them, kinda like the banner of devestation(?) to differentiate them from normal space marines. A tiny bit "less" emphasis on the raven and deathwings (Since those groups do things other groups do just as well), and a little "more" emphasis on the standard units like the tacticals, scouts, dreads, and assault marines. Maybe they could be extra tough, or have bolters that shoot just a little farther. Maybe special ammo, just something to make em different tactically from normal space marines units somehow.

On a separate note, I feel like tactical marines are always getting the short end of the stick right now. Rather than seeing them buffed through gear availability like more individuals getting a special weapon or something, I'd love to see the tactical unit as a whole get buffed instead, something that beefed up the entire units shooting instead and made those extra bolter dudes more of an actual threat.

Dunno, just my thoughts. I can't wait to see the next update regardless. I do feel like the DA have lots of potential, great fluff, and interesting models to work with.

Your thread title needs work.

The dark angel book is pretty decent if you ignore the relics. They have great utility with their bikes being able to take rad launchers, but not much else is unique to them after that.

Their planes are a little off, but a few tweaks would make them work well. Above all else, the option to make them fire better without needing the banner of devastation would be welcome, such as upgrades for boltguns to become salvo 2/4 naturally. Same for stormbolters. They should also have benefits to plasma, such as having a master of the forge or techpriest in the squad would mean their weapons don't get hot. Chapter tactic would grant relentless for one turn and maybe something else.

This list could go on forever.............

Lower points of terminators and bikes(these are common amost the dark angels)
Bikes get skilled rider all of the ravenwing are veterans
Fix the fliers(they just utterly suck)
Lower points for plasma weapons(per the fluff dark angels use lots of plasma thus common so lower plasma guns and pistols to 10 points, no need to buff gets hot)
Relics besides the mace of redemption
Fix azrael(ap2 weapon/eternal warrior) and asmodai(ap3 weapon with instant death) give ezekial some kind of ward save
The dark angels use lots of old 30k era stuff according to fluff, represent that with options.
Add more besides grim resolve for chapter tactics


Just off the top of my head

1. Normalize the points cost on DW termies and give them a specific Deathwing formation.
2. Normalize the points cost on RW bikes and give them a specific Ravenwing formation.
3. Remove Belial and Sammael. Allow any HQ in TDA or on a bike to lead their respective Company formation.
4. Lower the points cost on the Dark Talon/Nephilim enormously.
5. "Derp, we like plasma! Yet we seem to have no better luck at not killing ourselves with it, herp!" A simple re-roll of any Gets Hot! weaponry would be nice.

Honestly, when the DA get updated, I don't see any new kits coming our way. We'll get access to some of the SM stuff we don't have now (Storm Ravens, Centurions, grav weapons), but I think that's about it. Points drops and sensible formations that allow us to run First or Second Company without looking at C:SM and facepalming would be sufficient.

I forgot about the relics. Only relic worth taking in most cases in the Lion's roar/Mace of Redemption. It's been awhile since I even considered bringing any relics so I've kind of forgotten about them.

Give Ravenwing Monster Hunter across the board. It would help counter the most OP unit type (FMC) and it fits well with their background. Also I would give them stealth instead of scout and skilled rider, to differentiate them from White Scars. That also fits their background as more of a recon unit than a shock unit.

I like that only Inner Circle people get preferred enemy. For the rest of the deathwing I would give them shrouded the turn they arrive as part of Deathwing Assault. Make DWK permanent S10 ap 4 with smite mode dropping to AP 2.

For chapter tactics make a 2 shot plasma pistol free equipment for any vet sarge. And reroll gets hot.

For the flyers give us the real bolt cannon, the one that the raptor has, and S8 autosavant missiles. Let any officer lead a dw or rw company and make jetbikes an option for officers and command squads if you need a new kit.

 the_Armyman wrote:
1. Normalize the points cost on DW termies and give them a specific Deathwing formation.
2. Normalize the points cost on RW bikes and give them a specific Ravenwing formation.
3. Remove Belial and Sammael. Allow any HQ in TDA or on a bike to lead their respective Company formation.
4. Lower the points cost on the Dark Talon/Nephilim enormously.
5. "Derp, we like plasma! Yet we seem to have no better luck at not killing ourselves with it, herp!" A simple re-roll of any Gets Hot! weaponry would be nice.

Honestly, when the DA get updated, I don't see any new kits coming our way. We'll get access to some of the SM stuff we don't have now (Storm Ravens, Centurions, grav weapons), but I think that's about it. Points drops and sensible formations that allow us to run First or Second Company without looking at C:SM and facepalming would be sufficient.

Belial and sammael need to stay. I like how they are the only company masters that get those options. It is fluffy and should stay IMO. One thing that is anti fluffy is tech marines getting bikes. Only ravenwing roll on bikes and techmarines are barred from the deathwing and ravenwing

1. Put them in the regular SM codex.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
1. Put them in the regular SM codex.

No. Just no

Better HQs, reduction in points for Termies and a lot of units, make the Fliers actually deadly/reduced in points. Very simple changes that could make DA much more competitive.

 the_Armyman wrote:


Honestly, when the DA get updated, I don't see any new kits coming our way. We'll get access to some of the SM stuff we don't have now (Storm Ravens, Centurions, grav weapons), but I think that's about it. Points drops and sensible formations that allow us to run First or Second Company without looking at C:SM and facepalming would be sufficient.

You're probably right about the kits, but I gotta admit, if we end up with Storm Ravens, Cents, grav weapons, thunderfire, and the other things that normal C:SM get, I'll feel like that's kind of a letdown. They're definitely things that increase the strength of regular marines, but I feel like if DA get all that, then DA might as well just get rolled into C:SM codex at that point, because outside of fluff we end up much closer to regular marines. I very specifically want them to differentiate DA more from regular marines. I think they're too close to the same thing now as is.

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:


Honestly, when the DA get updated, I don't see any new kits coming our way. We'll get access to some of the SM stuff we don't have now (Storm Ravens, Centurions, grav weapons), but I think that's about it. Points drops and sensible formations that allow us to run First or Second Company without looking at C:SM and facepalming would be sufficient.

You're probably right about the kits, but I gotta admit, if we end up with Storm Ravens, Cents, grav weapons, thunderfire, and the other things that normal C:SM get, I'll feel like that's kind of a letdown. They're definitely things that increase the strength of regular marines, but I feel like if DA get all that, then DA might as well just get rolled into C:SM codex at that point, because outside of fluff we end up much closer to regular marines. I very specifically want them to differentiate DA more from regular marines. I think they're too close to the same thing now as is.

they need to increase the viability of the 1st and 2nd companies. That is what makes them unique beyond everything else.

Point reductions would be a step forward. Reworking the fliers would also be nice. Stubborn is not a good chapter tactic. Re-roll gets hot could be nice. Make greenwing an option. Make Azrael have eternal warrior, and beef up other characters. Rework relics. A new psychic discipline, focusing mostly on shrouding, stealth, maledictions.

Just some thoughts.

 namiel wrote:


they need to increase the viability of the 1st and 2nd companies. That is what makes them unique beyond everything else.

You're right. And outside of fluff, it's the "only" thing differentiating them too, but salamanders can do the all termie army as well, and White scars can do the all bikes game too. That makes that whole RW DW specialness seem to be not much there anymore. That is EXACTLY why we need differentiating in some other form Sir.

If GK's can do termies better than DA can, why would I play them that way? If WS get better tactics with their bikes, why would I use RW? If regular old SM get stronger units in the form of cents, thundefire etc., why would I play DA for regular tactics?

They need to do something different from the others, not just strengthen the things that others field the same way.

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:

 namiel wrote:


they need to increase the viability of the 1st and 2nd companies. That is what makes them unique beyond everything else.

You're right. And outside of fluff, it's the "only" thing differentiating them too, but salamanders can do the all termie army as well, and White scars can do the all bikes game too. That makes that whole RW DW specialness seem to be not much there anymore. That is EXACTLY why we need differentiating in some other form Sir.

If GK's can do termies better than DA can, why would I play them that way? If WS get better tactics with their bikes, why would I use RW? If regular old SM get stronger units in the form of cents, thundefire etc., why would I play DA for regular tactics?

They need to do something different from the others, not just strengthen the things that others field the same way.

Well their are some signature differences. Ravenwing combat squads is a big deal. Being able to split 6 bikes, an attack bike, and a landspeeder into 4 combat squads is nice and really helps when leaving 50% off the table for reserves that outflank.

The DW have DW assault. Being able to choose which turn 1 or 2 that they come in via deep strike is pretty significant but muted by the fact they get blown off the table instantly by most lists.

The rest of the army needs access to relic weapons. Stuff not seen anymore.

Deathwing: drop DWA and split fire, make them formation bonuses. Lower points to same as GKT.

Deathwing Knights: keep points the same. Allow them to choose armourbane or fleshbane each turn on regular mode of maces.

HQ: generic characters on bike make 1 squad rw bikes as troops. Term armoured get 1 squad terms as troops.

Ravenwing: formation. Small points drop.

Fliers: tweak rules and lower points

Land speeder vengeance/darkshroud: armour 13 12 10

Banners: storm bolters work with dakkabanner.

Relics: Eternal Warrior relic. Mace of redemption should be ap2.

Inner Circle: smaller bonus against everyone.

Chapter tactics: add reroll to gets hot.

Do not need any units from codex SM

With the DA you do get some things that are nice.

Fearless and preferred enemy (CSM) with any model with the inner circle rule.

Deep strike automatically on turn 1 or turn 2 without rolling for reserves (if wanted)

Twink-linked on mentioned deep strike

Terminators that have Plasma cannons

Can mix/mach terminators

Bikes that can hit and run

 namiel wrote:


Well their are some signature differences. Ravenwing combat squads is a big deal. Being able to split 6 bikes, an attack bike, and a landspeeder into 4 combat squads is nice and really helps when leaving 50% off the table for reserves that outflank.

You make a good point with regards to DW assault and needing access to some form of relics.

That RW combat squadding is very similar to how people are playing SW Wolfstars right now, so it's definitely powerful tactically, but that's one more army that can do a thing DA can do. I just really wanna see DA have something they can do that no one else does as well.

What you say about relics makes me wonder if they couldn't do just that. What if the DA had those old 30k version bolters that were actually more powerful than the 40k version? Suddenly massed bolterfire could get alot more powerful, or maybe units could get access to more specialized ammo types much like sternguard do. Basic troop types at that point would be better than what's available to other SM chapters and make tacticals more enticing for once. Heck it would even make scouts and Assault marines more tactically useful with a more powerful shooting profile.

Love your avatar btw man, one of my favorite movies.

 the_Armyman wrote:

Remove Belial and Sammael. Allow any HQ in TDA or on a bike to lead their respective Company formation.

Hell, no! These guys are too cool to just remove! They need to be lowered in cost for sure, but I like them and their abilities (for the fluff reasons if nothing else).

Main things I would change (some or all of these have been mentioned earlier, I think):
1. Either lower the cost for the flyers, or give their stats/weapons a major boost. The models are very cool, but just not worth actually taking right now.
2. Give Deathwing Knights 2 wounds each, this would make them much more dangerous and hard to kill as well as that much more worth taking! DA hardly have any 2 wound models other than characters.
3. Fix the Land Speeder Vengeance and make it worth taking. This is one of those units that is unique to DA, so it needs to be made into a viable option.
4. Give DA access to Stalker tanks, or add something unique to them for better air defense. Maybe a variant of the aforementioned Land Speeder Vengeance chassis!
5. Perhaps a formation like the Decurion or the Khorne Daemonkin Blood Host, with slots for Ravenwing and Deathwing units (and others) that will give them some buffs.
6. Grav weapons, maybe? Not sure they need them, but it couldn't hurt.
7. Make Asmodai relevant (as in actually useful in an army). Fluffwise he's cool, playability wise, definitely not.

Just my 2 cents!

Just a thought. Could you guys imagine if they make a model for "The Rock" as a LoW? That is all.

Phyrekzhogos wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:


Honestly, when the DA get updated, I don't see any new kits coming our way. We'll get access to some of the SM stuff we don't have now (Storm Ravens, Centurions, grav weapons), but I think that's about it. Points drops and sensible formations that allow us to run First or Second Company without looking at C:SM and facepalming would be sufficient.

You're probably right about the kits, but I gotta admit, if we end up with Storm Ravens, Cents, grav weapons, thunderfire, and the other things that normal C:SM get, I'll feel like that's kind of a letdown. They're definitely things that increase the strength of regular marines, but I feel like if DA get all that, then DA might as well just get rolled into C:SM codex at that point, because outside of fluff we end up much closer to regular marines. I very specifically want them to differentiate DA more from regular marines. I think they're too close to the same thing now as is.

GW is in the business of selling models. Restricting access to those models due to arbitrary fluff or "feels" is something they don't care about. Just to rub a bit of salt in the wound, they'll even make up some daft fluff about how Cents are part of the Deathwing now so you'll be forced to paint those abominations bone white.

ZergSmasher wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

Remove Belial and Sammael. Allow any HQ in TDA or on a bike to lead their respective Company formation.

Hell, no! These guys are too cool to just remove! They need to be lowered in cost for sure, but I like them and their abilities (for the fluff reasons if nothing else).

I'd rather not have to drag the company master around everytime I want to fight a battle Truth be told, we're probably stuck with them for quite a while. GW only axes special characters who don't have models. It's just a shame that both of those guys are in Finecast. I'm glad I was able to get a metal Sammael; Belial I couldn't care less for the sculpt.

Loved the named Company Masters for 2nd and 1st Company. However, I do think that there should be options for people who want to custom their own.

Why would you want gravs? Maybe volkit weaponary?

And beter yet give our veterans and command squads special bolt ammunition.

Custom Chapter Master (for successors)

Flyers: Drop point costs, give better missiles (S8)

Add grav weapons

Make terminator powerfist to option like others new codex and drop points

Give a skilled riders to bikes or reduce point cost

Give a plasma mastery, reroll get hot

Give AP2 weapon to Azrael and make him LoW

Give formations with special rules

 the_Armyman wrote:


GW is in the business of selling models. Restricting access to those models due to arbitrary fluff or "feels" is something they don't care about. Just to rub a bit of salt in the wound, they'll even make up some daft fluff about how Cents are part of the Deathwing now so you'll be forced to paint those abominations bone white.

Meh. You say that, but I don't see regular space marine armies running around using the Land Speeder Vengeance models, the RW bikes, or the Nephilim. While you're right about them wanting to sell models, if just making everyone have access to the same crap actually worked in their favor, they'd have done that by now.

Drop the price of literally every unique unit in the Codex and they're suddenly fine. Except the Nephilim, that needs an overhaul.

Well, there are ways to improve them.
Termies and Flyers are too expensive.
Raven- and Deathwing should be more effectively at the battlefield.

Deathwing Devastator Terminators

Centurions with Dark angel flavour added

Vengance autopasses gets hot rolls and grants units within 6 gets hot rerolls, 2 more hitpoints.

Dark shroud ability to +1D6 to scatter range on enemy templates

I'm personally for rolling them in (along with blood angels) and normalizing prices and giving them a chapter tactic which is actually worse than even the worst C:SM ones.

If they are to be kept separate (and they will be) they should emphasize their advantage in Dark Age technology; their whole kitsch is secrets and more archaeotech than most (as well as being organized more like a Legion than a Chapter). So, aside from obligatory price normalizations, how about this?

0-1 Jetbike Command Squad. If you have Sammael, you can take a unit of Ravenwing jetbikes; requires a fluff adjustment, ("As the darkness of the void closes in on the imperium, the Dark Angels' trademark secrecy becomes less dominant, and devices thought lost re-emerge from the vaults of the Rock..." or something like that). Heavily armed, durable jetbikes, would create a new kit to sell and be backed up by the fluff to a degree (Sammael's bike having been destroyed several times, only for a new one to re-appear, i.e. they either have a ton of the damned things in vaults or can build them in limited numbers).

Volkite. Limited availability special weapon; command squads/tactical squads only (Greenwing need some love). For those not familiar, the "standard" volkite gun (they range from pistols to superheavy-scale armament, I'd say only the "Volkite Charger" - a rifle-sized version) is St5 Ap5 assault 2, and gets additional auto-hits equal to the number of wounds it does, but they are not open ended. Crowd control and an assault weapon; decent buff to basic infantry for the DA.

Fury of the Legion. Trademark Horus Heresy rule for tactical squads where they can fire their bolters twice at the same target at the expensive of not being able to overwatch or shoot the next turn. Reflective of their focus on ranged warfare and legion-esque structure

Additional dreadnought/Predator armament options. Borrow from FW here; heavy conversion beamers, plasma executioners and other advanced weapons which are "Relics" for other chapters are standard upgrades available to core DA units with some limitations - no more than X per list or whathave you, but more than the 1 per allowed to other chapters.

There, you've got a more defined "character" to justify snowflakeness, but fits their fluff somewhat and doesn't result, in theory, in really cheesecake looking models, and provides a nice line of three kits for GW to release; a re-done predator with more options, imperial Jetbikes and a DA-specific tactical squad with a new kind of special weapon. Fits their model, and would make the army more interesting in my opinion.