Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Every little thing adds up. Hitting 33% of the time instead of 50% against most things that have a chance at hurting it is a big deal IMO.

Ws2 still hits most things on 4+. You have to be Ws5 or higher for ws2 to hit on a 5+ which isn't that common.

You're right. I thought Chaos Knights were WS5, but that's the Kytan. Figures. D-Thirster would be viable if it wouldn't get stomped to death (or die well before making a charge).

*edit*

I don't know what the rank stuff implies about their stats. I know nothing about Tau fluff.

I just don't see how this unit doesn't earn it's point back, and at the same time allowing the rest of the army not free reign, but an offensive advantage and the ability to do things you might normally avoid with that thing and it's range. Also; require an expensive dedicated counter. At range; it has a solution for everything in the game. Maybe the bs3 will mitigate that a bit.

Luckily it's forgeworld, and they do experimental rules for a reason, and do make changes. Let's see it play and see what happens.

Side question : Couldn't a buffmander type use CnC node and MSSS on this guy? Granted some weapons already include those effects, but in the scenario of "all weapons fire-able" it's beyond nightmarish, or maybe Shadowsun's special drone? Thankfully Tau are super limited so I don't think psykers buffing this thing are an issue.

BS3 seems so off fluff wise on such a huge investment. This should be longstrike's suit.

 Desubot wrote:
quote=Desubot 664321 8134027 41f4b2ef0ea46e830f5d15c6b3835a5e.jpg]



its Grav cents and sky hammer.

Grav cents should alone deal about 4-5 unsaved wounds each. id probably bring two or three and the sky hammer (assuming we are talking "competative play") your fire base has to intercept at least 3 of these units not to die. and the Devs can be further MSUed if they want. its 1500 points of grav spam.

I don't know how you think 10 devestators and some grav cents will survive lol.

1850

HQ
Commander (plasma x2, EWO, xv84 suit)
Troop
Crisis Team x3 (plasma x6, EWO x3)
Kroot x10
Kroot x10
FA
Tetra
Tetra
HS
Skyray
Supremacy Battlesuit x1

Formation - Firebase Cadre
Riptide (EA/IA)
Missileside w/ EWO x6

Here's an 1850 list and If I knew I was playing your list I'd just make it all EWO suits with plasma

the missilesides alone will wipe out the skyhammer devs

now you're telling me 3 grav cents will survive:

a riptide with an IA blast and TL plasma shots
plus a unit of 4 crisis suits with plasma +ewo + networked marker light?

you will have brought 1,000 points worth of grav guns that are on only 13 models and now you've got 850 points on the table of what left?



(so many edits I couldn't figure out quotes and just kept submitting my changes not using preview lol)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone realized that with having this is a tau army you've got a 7 inch D blast template that ignores cover with the use of markerlights?

going to be pretty hilarious wiping out armies of jet bikes and bikes when they cant jink save.

Skyhammer is effectively worthless against competitive Tau. A handful of expensive, high value but fragile-for-their-points units? Perfect Interceptor bait. You're practically handing your opponent free points (and considering two full devestator squads decked out with Grav is around 600pts, even if you use them as a "distraction" so you can also drop in grav cents to kill the KX139, then you're not getting anything out of that trade-off).

not to mention if you're going to try and drop in 5 grav squads I can just bring 40 kroot for only 240 points and still have an army and bubble wrap you out of 24 inch range of the supremacy suit. have fun shooting Kroot with grav guns

Why are you guys listing close combat as a counter to this thing? It has 60"+ ranges on its three main guns and has the line of sight (height) to sit in any corner of the board and still blast you to oblivion, and no sane Tau player will leave it unsupported - bubble-wrapping joy! If you are playing on the short table edge deployment zones against this thing on top of Tau in general....Emperor protect you. There are counters to this thing but close combat IS NOT THE ANSWER.

Vulgar wrote:
I just don't see how this unit doesn't earn it's point back, and at the same time allowing the rest of the army not free reign, but an offensive advantage and the ability to do things you might normally avoid with that thing and it's range. Also; require an expensive dedicated counter. At range; it has a solution for everything in the game. Maybe the bs3 will mitigate that a bit.

Luckily it's forgeworld, and they do experimental rules for a reason, and do make changes. Let's see it play and see what happens.

Side question : Couldn't a buffmander type use CnC node and MSSS on this guy? Granted some weapons already include those effects, but in the scenario of "all weapons fire-able" it's beyond nightmarish, or maybe Shadowsun's special drone? Thankfully Tau are super limited so I don't think psykers buffing this thing are an issue.

BS3 seems so off fluff wise on such a huge investment. This should be longstrike's suit.

These rules don't have the experimental stamp so aren't experimental

ICs can't join MCs or GCs so no buffmander shenanigans.

Its BS4

Again, unless FW has drastically changed the way they do things, these are not the final rules. We'll probably be getting a revised rule-set in a month or two. And then and even more revised one when they come out in print. Simply not having the stamp means very little in the long run.


FW tend to be pretty good about balance, especially when compared to GW. In fact, many of there things (especially for tau) tend to be over-costed.

Actually, them not having the stamp is important.

The recent SM Captain has no experimental rules as well.

I agree that with no "experimental rules" stamp there's really no reason to assume that these are experiment rules.

They most definitely aren't Experimental, but whether they are the final rules we will get in the upcoming Imperial Armour book is another question entirely. The Tau'nar is fully legal for use in 40k right now but I would be surprised if it doesn't get toned down even slightly when it gets an in-book rule-set.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
FW tend to be pretty good about balance, especially when compared to GW. In fact, many of there things (especially for tau) tend to be over-costed.

To me, that suggests they are not pretty good about balance.

As for melee not being very effective, well sure it isn't ideal but as Khorne player my options are very limited in the ranged department.

As in they go to a lot of effort to try and not make things overpowered in the final versions, and I think they listen to detractors a bit too much. This is why I'm really not too fussed about these rules at this point. That and I don't play with superheavies outside apoc.

Ah, I see what you're saying now.

Forge World have the occasional slip-ups with their rules - the original R'Varna, the current Y'Vahra, etc - but usually they over-price their units against their usually crazy abilities to ensure they are fair. They currently don't have anything that is Wraithknight levels of stupid from what I remember.

Dark eldar, space marines, mechanicus, and a few other armies take it down quite easily. I don't really forsee any hardships here. If your army can't handle it, don't allow forge world. Now you've beaten it before the game has even started.

Freakshow can deal with it easily. Dark Eldar as a stand alone has a tough time.

Speaking of which, how does the shield interact with Psychic Shriek?

 Frozocrone wrote:
Freakshow can deal with it easily. Dark Eldar as a stand alone has a tough time.

Speaking of which, how does the shield interact with Psychic Shriek?

Witchfires are shooting attacks so lets it use the 4++ against them

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Dark eldar, space marines, mechanicus, and a few other armies take it down quite easily. I don't really forsee any hardships here. If your army can't handle it, don't allow forge world. Now you've beaten it before the game has even started.

They actually don't. Dark Eldar get obliterated by Tau in general and the Tau'nar only adds to the misery. Poison does not work against the Tau'nar, meaning you have to rely on Fleshbane which for Dark Eldar involves Grotesques, Wracks with Ossefactors, etc. None of which is probably going to last long against a Tau'nar backed Tau list before it gets close enough to do anything - 60" ranges ahoy!

Space Marines are reliant on Centurionstar/Skyhammer, but the latter of those is countered hard by EWO Tau and whatever survives is incredibly unlikely to kill a Tau'nar. The former has to have Invisibility up or it gets demolished. AdMech are reliant on their Kataphron Destroyers which are heavily out-ranged by the Tau'nar and similarly get destroyed the moment you try to Drop Pod them in against any half-decent Tau list. What armies deal with it easily, exactly? Even Eldar struggle to kill it with Wraithknight spam as the Tau'nar can reliably kill a Wraithknight without a shield per turn and the rest of the army should be able to kill another per turn as well. Orks, Tyranids, Sororitas, Guard (outside of double Warhound lists), Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, pure Harlequins, Necrons and other Tau have almost no chance of stopping a Tau'nar other than trying to tarpit it or relying on Titans, but that doesn't change the fact the codices themselves are bang outta luck.

Frozocrone wrote:Freakshow can deal with it easily. Dark Eldar as a stand alone has a tough time.

Speaking of which, how does the shield interact with Psychic Shriek?

Can a Freakshow list reliably get close enough to a Tau'nar though? That would be my concern with that list honestly but I do agree they at least have something to deal with a Tau'nar.

Psychic Shriek is a ranged attack, meaning the Tau'nar would get both its 4+ invulnerable save and 5+ Feel No Pain against it. It also has good base Leadership for a Tau (9) and can even use an Ethereal's Leadership 10 aura, though the Stubborn Invocation won't work against Psychic Shriek.

WWP Deep Strike for No Scatter, you can position it so that you block line of sight to EWO units (assuming the Codex still allows it when it's released).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
3+ Jink with Night Shields too, except against SMS which need 6's to pen.

 Frozocrone wrote:
WWP Deep Strike for No Scatter, you can position it so that you block line of sight to EWO units (assuming the Codex still allows it when it's released).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
3+ Jink with Night Shields too, except against SMS which need 6's to pen.

That's one unit though (or multiple I guess if you take more than one CAD) and the Tau'nar will be bubble-wrapped for sure, if the Tau player is using Kroot as the meat-shields for the Tau'nar they can also block a lot of your potential drop points when Infiltrating.

A mixture of Markerlights from Skyrays, regular Tau shooting and unsupported Broadsides from the Firebase Support Cadre will rip right through Raiders and Venoms. A single Broadside from the FSC (say you give a unit of three Target Locks so each can fire at a different unit) has a good chance of outright destroying a Venom with just his Smart Missile Systems and no Markerlights.

At best you can hope to get first turn, get right in their face and hope something sticks as you are obviously not going to win the ranged battle and Tau in general have a field day against lightly armoured skimmers.

It's also not helped that DE have a pretty bad Codex at the minute and Tau have aged fairly well for a 6th ed Codex.

No stomp means use a cheap swarm unit with outflank or infiltrate, something to get it up there fast to charge and tarpit it for the game. Doesn't need to be killed, just needs to not be able to shoot. Given it only has 2 attacks at ws3, it's going to be in combat with pretty much anything that gets it caught in combat that won't run that easy if it does get one kill, right?

Really then the real issue would be the overwatch to get into combat with it. Pods would be out to start cause what Tau player doesn't have intercept really.

I don't see what a freakshow list is supposed to do to this. It's fearless, with leadership 9. And it has 10 wounds. And a 4++/5+fnp. And ignores cover.

I dont think the Dark Angels have any way of killing that

Frozocrone wrote:It's also not helped that DE have a pretty bad Codex at the minute and Tau have aged fairly well for a 6th ed Codex.

This is definitely true, the MBG article on BoLS a few weeks ago made my heart hurt in how wrong it was; Tau have their issues in 7th Edition but to say they've dropped out of the competitive scene is ludicrous. The Tau'nar only adds to the problems many armies have against Tau and in some cases is actually impossible to deal with (Orks).

n0t_u wrote:No stomp means use a cheap swarm unit with outflank or infiltrate, something to get it up there fast to charge and tarpit it for the game. Doesn't need to be killed, just needs to not be able to shoot. Given it only has 2 attacks at ws3, it's going to be in combat with pretty much anything that gets it caught in combat that won't run that easy if it does get one kill, right?

Really then the real issue would be the overwatch to get into combat with it. Pods would be out to start cause what Tau player doesn't have intercept really.

Unless Forge World actually release an FAQ saying that the Tau'nar does not get Feel No Pain or Stomp, it does by nature of being a Gargantuan Creature; I might be wrong but I am pretty sure the rules listed in parenthesis next to the parent rule has been done before by Forge World and similarly messed up, the Cerastus Knights come to mind. Two WS3 S8 AP2 attacks isn't much but the D3 Stomps ensure most tarpit solutions get squished, that is if they ever actually manage to reach the damn thing through its Overwatch, Supporting Fire Overwatch from nearby Tau, general Tau and Tau'nar shooting and the obvious tactic of bubble-wrapping the Tau'nar. I can see massed Canoptek Wraiths, Imperial Knights and a few others being capable of actually making it given all those factors but little else.

BlaxicanX wrote:I don't see what a freakshow list is supposed to do to this. It's fearless, with leadership 9. And it has 10 wounds. And a 4++/5+fnp. And ignores cover.

This is also true.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
I dont think the Dark Angels have any way of killing that

Pure Dark Angels have no way of actually killing it, and Tau provide one of the few solutions to Ravenwing in the form of massed potential Ignore Covers AP3-AP2 shooting - the Apocalyptic Barrage from the Tau'nar can eat entire Ravenwing armies if they aren't positioned properly. It also goes without saying that Deathwing get shredded by Tau, which leaves mixed or Greenwing lists....which can't actually stand up to a Tau'nar's shooting.

Suddenly I dont feel it would be cheezy to drop 5 or 6 units of vanguard in pods.

 Orock wrote:
Suddenly I dont feel it would be cheezy to drop 5 or 6 units of vanguard in pods.

Even Vanguard would have a tough time getting past the 2+ armour and 5+ Feel No Pain with the 10 Wounds on offer, plus I'd expect at least half of them to get eaten by the Tau Interceptor fire.

Caederes wrote:
Pure Dark Angels have no way of actually killing it

They don't need to.

Aversion forces snapshots, which takes the main weapon offline for the rather economical cost of 1WC.

There's not a better counter in the entire game.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Pure Dark Angels have no way of actually killing it

They don't need to.

Aversion forces snapshots, which takes the main weapon offline for the rather economical cost of 1WC.

There's not a better counter in the entire game.

That's pretty good but there are several things to consider; you need to roll up the power, you need to get within 24" to use it and you can bet the Tau player will throw all their dice at stopping it. It is really easy to stop if the Tau player has the Talisman of Arthas Moloch, and I'd worry about getting in range to use the power. EWO makes Deep Striking the Librarian with that power very risky while otherwise the Tau'nars' range and probable bubble wrap will make other delivery solutions less favourable. Also, Markerlights will at least mitigate the effects of the power for its other guns.