Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
I already said 4 X grav or 4 X lascannon and nothing else. No ML. No HB. No PC. Those weapons are all awful. I'm just giving a reason why. Even the lascannon is pretty meh. But 48" S9 AP 2 does have its uses.

This is basically my assessment as well. Lascannons are decent because you can reliably cause wounds against high T or high AV targets from 48" away. Gravcannons are decent because you can cause tons of wounds at 36" away, or lots of wounds at 18" away + giving your devastators mobility. ML, HB and PC will just struggle to get their points back. Remember that each heavy weapon also has a 14pt marine attached to it, so even a HB devastator costs 70% of the points of a Lascannon Devastator.

Multimeltas are a special case. They work well as part of a Skyhammer formation, or as part of Salamander's detachment with Vulkan, but you wouldn't want to take them otherwise (range is just too low).

Forgot MMs, but they are so much better on attack bikes or speeders. They have a place (maybe) in skyhammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mathaius90 wrote:
But will OP encounter them en masse?
Probably not, so your comparison does not have any sense to exist in this contest.
MTG example : if I play T2 i don't prepare (or for what matters compare other T2 cards) for Force Of Will or UWr Miracles deck, because those belong to another format, Legacy.

Bonus example:
Obviously I won't go to Motogp with a scooter.

Scatterlasers and eldar are Motogp.
Martel plays in Motogp.

OP runs in the local circuit with his friends, have beers after the race and pass an afternoon having fun.
OP DOES NOT NEED A MOTOGP BIKE.

The scatterlaser makes casual Eldar lists monstrous vs other casual lists. The gulf is even bigger, I think, than with competitive lists because the non-Eldar player likely can't silence the guns nearly fast enough. The fact that scatterlasers kill infantry, transports and MCs still blows my mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I'll quit talking about the scatterlaser when I quit getting tabled by it. And others quit getting crushed by it.

That's weird, because I have yet to see one scatterbike, we have fun without cheesy lists where every unit can have a role. Heck, the resident chaos player uses warp talons and a land raider and has a good chance of winning. Because we set ourselves some limit on units, since we acknowledged the existence of interpersonal relationships and agreed to have fun together, not one at a time.

Surely we must be getting something wrong then.

But you're right and everybody's wrong, ok.
_____

Maybe you should kit the devastators to complement the rest of your army, but they really shine in the AV compartment.

Grav cannons are the way to go. IMO

Either that or Lascannons,

Pretty much every Imperial Heavy weapon could take a 5 pt price drop and still be underwhelming.

Except Grav. Grav is amazing.

Las Cannons are better on other platforms though. I would much rather take a predator or a dreadnaught than a devastator squad. The ML is ok but Flak missiles are over costed. The main problem is that everything they do is done better by another unit

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Las Cannons are better on other platforms though. I would much rather take a predator or a dreadnaught than a devastator squad. The ML is ok but Flak missiles are over costed. The main problem is that everything they do is done better by another unit

That makes them bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mathaius90 wrote:
That's weird, because I have yet to see one scatterbike, we have fun without cheesy lists where every unit can have a role. Heck, the resident chaos player uses warp talons and a land raider and has a good chance of winning. Because we set ourselves some limit on units, since we acknowledged the existence of interpersonal relationships and agreed to have fun together, not one at a time.

Surely we must be getting something wrong then.

But you're right and everybody's wrong, ok.
_____

Maybe you should kit the devastators to complement the rest of your army, but they really shine in the AV compartment.

"

Just because you guys aren't playing with good lists doesn't make bad units good.

No but doesn't make everything scatterlaser either.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Las Cannons are better on other platforms though. I would much rather take a predator or a dreadnaught than a devastator squad.

Predators Annihilators and Devastator Squads with Lascanons are similar in efficiency. Devastators cost 7% more for 20% more firepower, and can easily take advantage of 4+ cover saves. Predators have better mobility, as well as immunity to S6 weapons if you can point the hull in the right direction.

Power-level wise, neither is a top-tier choice. There's a reason Grav Cents and Thunderfire Cannons overshadow them in competitive play.

I prefer the pred since i play mechanized marines. More tanks means target saturation. My HS is usually two auto cannon las cannon preds, a stalker, and a TFC

I see no reason to take weapons other than MM, PC, or Grav.. in that order of being worth taking.

Multi Melta are nasty against vehicles and are cheap. Yeah, they are short ranged, but it keeps vehicles out of a bubble of the map. They keep the unit very cheap and pose as a great Distraction Carnifex type of unit.

Plasma Cannons because they are also fairly cheap, and give you an AP2 BLAST, which again may not be the most devastating thing, but cause your opponent to think twice about placing models.

Grav are cool, but far too expensive on Devastators. leave Grav to Bikers and centurions where it is much better. (again, maybe cool in the skyhammer, but too expensive)

ML kinda suck at everything
HB are ok, but not needed by most marine armies (in devs that is)
LC is too expensive for something that MM do better. Yes, they have the range, but MM have the killing power. If LC were AP1, they would be killer.

Lascannons and MM are in a totally difference class of area denial - one denies a 12" bubble, the other denies almost everything on the table within LOS.

My favorite devestator composistion was a rework hybriding of bethovens fifth, and the March of the Valkyries.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Lascannons and MM are in a totally difference class of area denial - one denies a 12" bubble, the other denies almost everything on the table within LOS.

Technically, the bubble is 24" for 2d6 range and 48" for being able to hit something. On a 4x6 board, and assuming you can deploy usually 12" into that 4' area means you can deny a significant portion of the board properly deployed MMs.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Lascannons and MM are in a totally difference class of area denial - one denies a 12" bubble, the other denies almost everything on the table within LOS.

Technically, the bubble is 24" for 2d6 range and 48" for being able to hit something. On a 4x6 board, and assuming you can deploy usually 12" into that 4' area means you can deny a significant portion of the board properly deployed MMs.

MM only has a max range of 24", so 12" of 2d6

I think one of you is talking RADIUS, the other DIAMETER.

Yeah. So, another way of thinking about it:

Lascannons can cover an area of 50 ft²
Multimeltas can cover an area of 12 ft² at their max range, and 3 ft² at melta range.

The difference overall board coverage is dramatic.

Although when you consider that the table is only 24 sq ft, the other argument is that lascannons are massive overkill, and that multimeltas will do fine as long as you get their positioning, and the positioning of the objectives, just right.

(Personally I am still marginally more likely to get lascannons if I can, but I think it's important to compare apples to apples!)

Lascannons also has the potential to hit something and be relatively safe of retaliation, multimeltas can be shot at by bolters the next turn.

But i think it's slightly harder to screw with LOS for multimeltas, since they are very central in the board.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Although when you consider that the table is only 24 sq ft, the other argument is that lascannons are massive overkill, and that multimeltas will do fine as long as you get their positioning, and the positioning of the objectives, just right.

(Personally I am still marginally more likely to get lascannons if I can, but I think it's important to compare apples to apples!)

Your devastators will almost always be set back fairly far from the center of the table, so coverage matters. And seeing as how Multimeltas only have an advantage in penetration power within that tiny 3 square foot bubble, the Lascanons will be able to successfully cause glances and penetrating hits against vehicles in a greater variety of situations. I would argue that in actual practice, Lascannons will cause quite a bit more damage than Multimeltas (even relative to the MM's lower price).

I'm not just bullshitting with mathhammer, my experience has been absolutely that Lascannons are a more generally useful choice, to the point where I even use them in my Vulkan Salamanders army to fill out the demicompany's mandatory devastator slot (since I hate using Grav Cents). There are just so many cases where my MM devastators would sit around for a turn doing nothing for lack of decent targets... whereas Lascannon devastators are rarely at loss for something to shoot at, or else are dramatically influencing the enemy's movement choices by forcing them to hid behind LOS blocking terrain.

Devastators are of questionable value anyhow; there's no sense in hampering a mediocre unit with poor equipment choices. Kit them up with Lascannons or Gravcannons, and actually kill stuff.

MMs go on attack bikes, not devastators.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Yeah. So, another way of thinking about it:

Lascannons can cover an area of 50 ft²
Multimeltas can cover an area of 12 ft² at their max range, and 3 ft² at melta range.

The difference overall board coverage is dramatic.

Right... all of that sounds good an all.....



But on a 4x6 table, and when deployment zones are only 24" from each other.......

Though MM are 1 less Str (meaning slightly less overall amount of glance/pen hits) it has better AP value, which means you have a better chance of destroying said vehicle with each pen. Becomes MUCH higher obviously when within 12".


If you are arguing this point and have never tried fielding a squad with 4 of them, do yourself a favor and try it. Yes, they are easier to kill than Lascannon devs since they will be more aggressively deployed, but they also cause the opponent to rethink deployment/movements since they know the range is shorter.

If I have 4 MM slightly offset to one side of the board, would you rather set your vehicles on that side, or the other? Its amazing what this unit can do to make the opponent make poor tactical decisions.

And 8 Melta Bombs of points cheaper. Seems like a good choice to me. But it all depends on your play style and what you prefer. This is just something from my experiences over decades of playing 40k.

I don't give a crap about your 4 MM. I can cripple the squad from outside 24" with spare heavy bolter fire. Your AP 1 is useless 83% of the time in the 12"-24" bracket against say a Baal pred anyway. Which will turn your dev squad into sushi.

Surely your MM devs are only 2 to a 5-man squad, and go in rhinos, as part of a Lion's Blade or Gladius, because you couldn't quite afford grav cannons? I don't think anyone is suggesting sticking an unprotected 5-man squad with 4 multimeltas in the middle of the board...

I think Grav/Multi Melta/Lascannons/Heavy Bolter could work in Skyhammer, using either Ultramarine Doc for the first two, or Imperial fists for the latter.

For regular Devs, two Grav cannons in a Rhino with White Scars seems a popular one or 4 Lascannons with Imperial Fists, sitting in the back.

Personally, i'm using Raptor Chapter tactics and with Lias Issodon granting infiltrate right, left and center, + Heavy 1 Rendering Boltguns, it kind of opens the field to multi meltas and grav cannons as you can get them within 24 inches without moving and not totally waste the bolters. Thus i'll be using a 10 man Dev squad with two Grav Cannons. But that is pretty specialised and out of the norm.

nareik wrote:
I think one of you is talking RADIUS, the other DIAMETER.

Bingo

So, getting back to the actual thread topic of devastator loadouts, I played a couple of games today with my Dark Angels, using the Lion's Blade Strike Force. My required devastator squad was kitted out as follows: 10 men, 2x Gravcannon w/Gravamp, 2x Lascannon, Rhino. I combat squadded them, putting the grav guys in the Rhino and keeping the lascannons in the backfield. It worked really well, as my opponent's Dreadknights melted to my grav cannons, and he had a hard time getting to my las guys. I lost both of the games we played, but that was more due to the maelstrom cards screwing me than me having a bad list. I am definitely running this loadout for my devs again, it worked very well.

Generally speaking with Dev squads:

1) Don't mix weapons, keep the squad focused
2) Take 1-2 red shirt marines to soak bullets
3) Don't take combi weapons unless you are a drop-podding grav unit, the average range of Devs is 48", combis are 24" at best, bad idea.

Weapons:

Lascannon: Tried and true Armour buster, TEQ eraser and MC killer. These will be shot of the board though.

Missile Launcher: Some say rubbish, some say awesome. It's a very versatile weapon and a way to get cheap S8 onto the field. (Small blast templates generally suck though). Oh and never, ever ever, buy Flakk missiles. Its one shot, not twin linked and rubbish. A dread with 2xTL Autocannons does a better job at shooting fliers.

Multi-Melta: Bad on a dev squad. Just plain bad.

Plasma Cannon: Small blasts are rubbish, fluffy for some, but still rubbish.

Heavy Bolter: You are space marines, you already have crap-loads of anti-infantry firepower, why would you take more (and the stock Predator with HB sponsons does it better, for cheaper)

Grav-Cannons: Flexible since you can move and shoot (deadly in a Drop Pod), useless against low armour infantry though.

Izural wrote:
Grav-Cannons: Flexible since you can move and shoot (deadly in a Drop Pod), useless against low armour infantry though.

Here's some fun mathhammer:

You'd think that Heavy Bolters would be a better choice against 4+ armor infantry, but they only cause ~10% wounds-per-point-spent compared to a devastator with a Gravcannon (the effect of the grav-amp is magnified). It's only when you get to 5+ armor infantry that the Heavy Bolter outperforms Grav Cannons in any meaningful way. And even then, the HB is dramatically outperformed by... regular bolters.

Hehe, this thread has veered off course a few times, but similarly more than a few times it has been brought back on course.

I do appreciate all suggestions and they have given me a lot to think about. I do wish I could field Grav-cents, but since DA can't, I can only do Devs. I'm aware that they are not particularly competitive, but I like them, they look cool, and I enjoy converting and painting them. Whether I win the match or not doesn't really matter as long as it's enjoyable. And I can imagine it could be enjoyable to see the look on my opponents face if I get lucky dice rolls while firing a full salvo of grav on his MC's.

Speaking of an all-grav squad, to me it sounds risky because it's so expensive to take four of them. You might want to pad the squad a little to soak up wounds, but then it would be even more risky.

I have the models for 4 ML, 3 Plas, 3 HB, 2 Las, 2 Grav, 2 Multimelta. Probably need to make more to be able to make full squads of a single weapon, although I guess I'll never field 4 HB or 4 MM, just doesn't seem like a good idea.

Zodfrey wrote:


I do appreciate all suggestions and they have given me a lot to think about. I do wish I could field Grav-cents, but since DA can't, I can only do Devs. I'm aware that they are not particularly competitive, but I like them, they look cool, and I enjoy converting and painting them. Whether I win the match or not doesn't really matter as long as it's enjoyable. And I can imagine it could be enjoyable to see the look on my opponents face if I get lucky dice rolls while firing a full salvo of grav on his MC's.

Just bring an allied detachment of C:SM with you. Tigurius, CCW Scouts, Pod and 3 gravcents is 495 points. Just paint them green and say that it's a smurf successor chapter that just looks conspicuously like Dark Angels.