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Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the point stands that the concerns with overpowered models are valid even if those models are expensive. And tbf if the 4-thundertusk guy promted the rest of you to tailor lists then I'd say there's an issue regardless of who won, a model is pretty OP of it got the whole tournament tailoring against it! (And besides if he had that much of a problem then he wasn't doing it right, which thundertusks was he running?)

I think both Thundertusks and Mournguls are pretty powerful, though as for strongest unit in the game I'm not sure. It's hard to beat Settra IMO because of the synergy value. Going back to Stormfiends, it occurs that they are insanely good when used in the Skryre cheese list, they might take top spot in that specific context.

[Edit] Just to caveat my statements, I do not support broken list building, spamming OP models, etc outside of tournaments! For me a tournament changes the dynamic since the primary goal becomes winning (over just having fun) and if a tournament doesn't want OP stuff taking over they are free to add some sort of comp which negates the advantage.

How have people been dealing with the beastclaws? I've only seen them in bat reps so haven't seen much

Beastclaws are a misnomyr. The army is actually Thundertusks and friends. :-p The vast majority of the army is actually not very scary at all with Tusks/Stonehorns doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting. As such, every loss of those hurts them badly.

Any army that can out-move them, and do massed concentrated damage should focus on removing one per turn.

In my cast, TK's thanks to ultra speedsters like Necrosphinx, or Necropolis Knights/Chariots bolstered with Incantation of Desert Wind from Settra, have multiple ways to charge from outside Thundertusk mortal-wound range, to directly in and charging. A Nectrotect buffing Necrosphinx, and Wind on said Chariots/Knights mean you will have at least two VERY hard hitting monsters in on a Tusk at will.

From there, you can also out-grind them. Chariots with a Herald on the table are getting ten wounds of Chariots back per turn, for free.

Skullhammer wrote:
Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.

I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.

 Kriswall wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.

I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.

The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same

 namiel wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.

I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.

The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same

Isn't the Foot of Gork the same, additional hits triggering on a 4+? I thought they ruled that spell as only triggering once (I don't have the FAQ handy, and could be thinking of a discussion on the spell)

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
would anyone say the zombie dragon is overpriced? it's listed as A+ but every game I play with it it dies so horribly

Which variety? Zombie Dragon alone, Zombie Dragon with Vampire, or Zombie Dragon with Ghoul King? At any rate if you have trouble with it dying try having it come in on a flank after your main troop blocks have engaged.


Stormfiends are good, but a large part of that is their ability to be battleline.

Whoops, I ment Vamp lord on zombie Dragon

Are you using the shield and goblet of blood? Those are powerful upgrades that come free in Matched Play so we're presumably factored into the rating.

of course! but even with mystic shield not much can protect against skarbrand's "eight wounds because I say so" attack.

Well if you are comparing against Scarbrand almost anything will come up short... he's pretty far under what he should be. Is the vampire your general? Because that model begs to have its command ability put on itself since so many attacks hit on 4+. Couple this with Red Fury and you have a very powerful damage dealer, toss in the item which gives hit penalties to non-death to make it even better. Also, I have seen a ton of big monsters die ineffectively because the found themselves in a central point on the battlefield, getting crap thrown at them from every direction. Better to start your expensive monsters on one side and roll them through the battle from there.

Cannons also aren't monster friendly.

Enjoyed having my flame cannon out again. Better grab the other 2 out of storage next month muhahaha

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well if you are comparing against Scarbrand almost anything will come up short... he's pretty far under what he should be. Is the vampire your general? Because that model begs to have its command ability put on itself since so many attacks hit on 4+. Couple this with Red Fury and you have a very powerful damage dealer, toss in the item which gives hit penalties to non-death to make it even better. Also, I have seen a ton of big monsters die ineffectively because the found themselves in a central point on the battlefield, getting crap thrown at them from every direction. Better to start your expensive monsters on one side and roll them through the battle from there.

Is that not one of the issues with those lists that spam behemoths though? Where they just line up so many monsters that you're just hoping to kill one off a turn

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.

I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.

The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same

Isn't the Foot of Gork the same, additional hits triggering on a 4+? I thought they ruled that spell as only triggering once (I don't have the FAQ handy, and could be thinking of a discussion on the spell)

The foot of gork is the exact same spell. If that is faq'd to one trigger then I would say so is the maw. I had not seen that in the faq but if that was the case then I would agree that the maw would work similarly. As its written now it doesn't feel as if the rule of 1 is written for that.

 namiel wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Found the "joys" of the ogre butcher with cauldreon his great maw spell is an absolute killer d6 mortals repeating on a 4+ just munches a unit at a time and dosent get stopped by the rule of one either. And the random buffs from the cauldreon are good as well. Sure not the most defencive of models but a good offencive output.

I suspect strongly that if you asked GW to clarify that it would be stopped by the Rules of One. I understand the intent to be 'no infinite damage loops'. If bonus attacks don't generate additional bonus attacks, I'd guess they don't want bonus spell damage generating additional bonus spell damage. Per the rules though, it does work.

The way the rule is written it continues on a 4+ so the rule of 1 wouldn't apply because its not damage creating more damage. No matter what you roll on the d6 the 4+ remains the same

Isn't the Foot of Gork the same, additional hits triggering on a 4+? I thought they ruled that spell as only triggering once (I don't have the FAQ handy, and could be thinking of a discussion on the spell)

The foot of gork is the exact same spell. If that is faq'd to one trigger then I would say so is the maw. I had not seen that in the faq but if that was the case then I would agree that the maw would work similarly. As its written now it doesn't feel as if the rule of 1 is written for that.

I finally got around to pulling up the GHB FAQ, and there isn't anything that states the Foot of Gork (or anything like it) is subject to the rule of 1, and given the wording of the rule, I don't see any good evidence supporting either spell being impacted.

YES! Stormfiends and warp lighting cannons

Warplightning Cannons absoulutly decemate enemies in every game ive played with them (i had two flee once, taht was bad )

The Screaming Bell is amazing, I rolled 2 consecutive 12a once and had two Verminlords running around. Wee

Been playing against my wife's Sylvaneth.

Spirit of Durthu as a general, with Gnarled Warror Command Trait (Ignore Rend -1) andArtefact: Brarsheath (-1 to hit all rolls for all attackers).

He defaults to a 3+ save, so if he's mystic shielded he's got a 2+ save, ignore rend -1.
With the Treelord Ancient's Command ability, if Durthu is within 10 inches of the Ancient or some Kurnoth Hunters, he rerolls 1's on save as well.

So that's a Spirit of Durthu, powerful ranged and melee attack.
-1 to hit for all enemies vs. him.
Stackable -1 to hit in melee vs. him (only on a 4+ ground shaking stomp roll).
2+ save, rerolling 1's (3+ without mystic shield).

Backup wizard to cast regrowth, healing him d6 wounds.

DoggieDoo wrote:
Been playing against my wife's Sylvaneth.

Spirit of Durthu as a general, with Gnarled Warror Command Trait (Ignore Rend -1) andArtefact: Brarsheath (-1 to hit all rolls for all attackers).

He defaults to a 3+ save, so if he's mystic shielded he's got a 2+ save, ignore rend -1.
With the Treelord Ancient's Command ability, if Durthu is within 10 inches of the Ancient or some Kurnoth Hunters, he rerolls 1's on save as well.

So that's a Spirit of Durthu, powerful ranged and melee attack.
-1 to hit for all enemies vs. him.
Stackable -1 to hit in melee vs. him (only on a 4+ ground shaking stomp roll).
2+ save, rerolling 1's (3+ without mystic shield).

Backup wizard to cast regrowth, healing him d6 wounds.

The treelord ancient can't use his command ability if the spirit of durthu is the general

Dracothian guard, any of the varieties have been giving my opponents fits at 1000 points. I usually table people with 5 total dracoths(Ful,Temp,Cel) and lose an average of 3 models per game. I played an apoc size game only having 1700 points of aos total and lost 1 model despite being in combat literally the whole game (A lord relictor that got sniped by tzeentch flamers).

We have a heavy duty WAAC player I left with a single model after losing a single model who told me that I had 'the biggest dick list in the store'. I just wanted to play wif mah kitteh dragons :(

On the subject of cheesy lists, i played a game of Rotbringers (with some skavies, i couldn't resist) versus my local store managers Undead. He brought three units of 30 Zombies, 3 Corpse Carts, a unit of dire wolves, a tomb banshee, four spirit hosts and a cairn wraith. I had two Rotbringer Sorcerers, a Lord of Plagues, plague monks, a plague priest, some Clan Rats and a pair of WLC s. I had seen his list taken down by a Khorne army, so i thought it woukd be an easy win.



NEVER UNDERESTIMATE 6+/6+ UNITS!


I was tabled. Nothing. Left. At. All.



PS: I like Kitteh Dragons too.

I'm a little surprised that Morghasts haven't been mentioned (at least that I recall).

People were talking about the Necrosphinx up thread, and honestly Morghasts seem like they could be in the same league if not better.

Against a 4+ save:

Necrosphinx (full strength): 8.22 unsaved wounds per combat

2 Morghast Archai: 6.67 unsaved wounds per combat

2 Morghast Harbingers: 5.92 unsaved wounds per combat

Against a 5+ save:

Necrosphinx: 8.61 unsaved wounds per combat

2 Morghast Archai: 8 unsaved wounds per combat

2 Morghast Harbingers: 7.4 unsaved wounds per combat

Against a 6+ save or no save:

Necrosphinx: 9 unsaved wounds per combat

2 Morghast Archai: 8 unsaved wounds per combat

2 Morghast Harbingers: 8.89 unsaved wounds per combat



Defensively,

Necrosphinx has 57.8 effective wounds

2 Morghast Archai have 43.2 effective wounds

2 Morghast Harbingers have 28.8 effective wounds


Of course, a Necrosphinx is 400 points while 2 Morghasts are 240 points.


Thus, Necrosphinx is 48.66/46.46/44.44 points per wound on offense and 6.9 points per effective wound on defense.

Morghast Archai are 35.98/30/30 points per wound on offense and 5.56 points per effective wound on defense

Morghast Harbingers are 40.5/32.4/27 points per wound on offense and 8.33 points per effective wound on defense.


All of them share the reanimant keyword and have similar movement speed. The Necrosphinx is a bit faster when healthy and a bit slower when damaged. The Archai don't get any special charge rules, so they are definitely slower overall, probably with a threat radius of a couple inches shorter on average. The Harbingers on the other hand have a much superior charge rule and have a substantially larger threat radius than the Necrosphinx.

The Necrosphinx give access to a healing spell which is nice if you have casters in your army. That said, it also has the disadvantage of being forced to charge which makes it much easier to tarpit.

Archai also benefit from not being behemoths, so they are probably a little harder to get LoS to and can benefit from cover. They also don't take up a behemoth slot in your list.

Overall it seems like both Morghast units are more efficient than the Necrosphinx on offense, with the Archai also being more efficient on defense but slower and the Harbingers being less efficient on defense but faster.

Given how feared the Necrosphinx is, I'd say that Morghasts also belong in this conversation. Now, of course, I can't help but think about how to convert them to a TK theme....

The Morghasts can also be battleline, which is a big deal.

Morghasts are definitely a fun, and scary option.

Bullgors with great weapons have plowed through most things around here. With the bullgor stampede battalion and a nearby doombull they can do some massive damage. Especially if they get the +1 to hit for chaos allegiance. Hit on 4s wound on 2s with the doombull and gain 2 extra attacks for every 5 or more. This is with -2 rend and 3 damage. I have had them deal 21 damage to a spirit of durthu after saves with just 3 guys. Also once they get within 12" if your enemy bunched up you can garuntee the charge and deal mortal wounds on a 4+. Now this is with mostly 1000 point games due to space here. At 2000 I get twice as many of them and 2 more ghorgons. The warherds in general hit hard and due to high wound counts they have good survivability.

So, I feel the need to say this, but just on the virtues of their Keywords alone, TK Chariots are shockingly powerful platforms for buffs. There are just so many really really potent, stackable, ones they can receive... their footprint is immense and obnoxious to play around, and they so easily gain back models.

I felt horrible at a tournament yesterday, because I THOUGHT I was way toning down my TK by taking no Necrosphinx, and no Mourngul, and still, at will, I removed any unit I wanted, from across the table, as needed. I saw some killer lists too, but outside of one tabled my other opponents in two turns.

I know "power ranking" put them somewhere in the "meh" category, but they really do just have access to too many good bonuses. I fully expect them to gain 40pts in cost, in next year's GH.

Did the tournament have a comp/sportsmanship aspect? If not no need to feel bad because it's a tournament setting. If the organizers didn't want OP lists to show up there are plenty of options.

The GH has a few glaring flaws in the points formulas unfortunately in regards to actual balance.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Did the tournament have a comp/sportsmanship aspect? If not no need to feel bad because it's a tournament setting. If the organizers didn't want OP lists to show up there are plenty of options.

I actually, repeatedly contacted the organizer in the weeks leading to the event, asking if it was going to be a "serious/competitive" tournament, or something for fun. I was told they had all been under the heel of a Thundertusk meta, and that other people were bringing their hardcore, Nova debuff stacking lists as well. After being told a few times that we should come with our best, I did so... but man, it never feels good to end up looking like "that guy". In this hobby i'm usually more concerned with my opponents and I having a fun time, so I do still feel badly if anyone didn't enjoy it.

There was some really clever stuff like the often theorized Grot-horde, loaded with Fanatics as anti-charge defense, and the often seen all-deep-striking Sigmarine army of doom. That said, it felt crummy when someone noticed by the end of the day that i'd lost two units spanning the entire tournament.

And there were some ruthless lists. Blight Kings stacked with debuffs had me in fear, when list building, as did the prospect of spammed Tusks.

My take away... I sincerely love AoS, and the General's Handbook is a godsend for helping the community just sky-rocket in number... but a lot of work, or some good comps are still due for the tournament scene to work itself out. I love the prospect of the new Handbook (as mentioned at Warhammer World), being rebalanced based on the community/tournament results, every single year. As it stands, just speaking to my own army... i'm expecting Settra to cost 100pts more, Chariots 40 more, Necro-Knights 40 more, Mourngul and Necrosphinx probably about 80 more.

The problem is that the community by and large will reject any comp that comes out unless its "official". So its kind of deal with the hand dealt situation.

 auticus wrote:
The problem is that the community by and large will reject any comp that comes out unless its "official". So its kind of deal with the hand dealt situation.

I don't believe that is true. The ITC for example is largely embraced across the entire 40k fandom. Why wouldn't something from a respected source not be able to gain traction in time? Now that Frontline gaming is going in HARD on Age of Sigmar, I wouldn't even be surprised if the ITC itself comps AoS in some small way.

There's already talk on the UK independent scene podcasts of an extra layer of comp being added. I imagine the decisive moment will be next year's SCGT and if they decide to run AoS vanilla or with a comp. I don't imagine they'll do much points adjustment (though they might), but they might add further restrictions.

Im of a mind that creating a significant sportsmanship aspect to tournament rankings would be a better route. As long as things are restriction based people will look for the best way to exploit it. But if wins only count for, say, two thirds of overall tournament performance and the rest is made up of sportsmanship scores it creates the situation where players no longer want to bring the best army possible. If someone really wants to go the route of just restricting things then use PPC, because the points layout of Matched Play will only ever produce decent balance rather than good (a lack of scaling point costs and separate upgrade points means certain things cannot be balanced properly).

I suspect that most will not want to go either route, which is entirely fine (I am a big supporter of playing AoS your way). But know that will come with the downside of exploitative lists. How much of that a tourney is willing to tolerate directly relates to how much comp there will need to be.