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 JNAProductions wrote:
90" isn't unreasonable? The average table is only 72" long. I get that Apoc games play on bigger tables, but you're stacking the deck pretty hard in the favor of the titans.

They need one turn to kill him, whatever he does. You don't need to stack the deck in their favour, they're going to win.

(As well they should. If a 1,500pt character is beating 6,000pts of Warlord Titans something's gone horribly wrong.)

Shortest distance is always a straight line.

And yeah, okay, math time. 4^2+6^2=X^2. 7.2 feet, about, or 86".

Edit: And yeah, I'll give you that two 2500+ point titans can kill a single 1500 point model.

I'm a bit too lazy to actually write a good list with Magnus, but it'd probably feature quite a few deamon princes.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
90" isn't unreasonable? The average table is only 72" long. I get that Apoc games play on bigger tables, but you're stacking the deck pretty hard in the favor of the titans.

Some trig will tell you I can place the tian significantly further when the shortest distance between them isn't a straight line.

He's a Flyer. The shortest distance between the two is always going to be a straight line.

It was never answered, so I'll ask it here:
How, exactly, are the Warlords hurting him? All of the D weapons that a Warlord can bring are blast weapons. Blast weapons cannot hurt swooping FMCs or GFMCs. Period. No snaps, no non-snaps, no scattering, nothing. Nada. Zilch.


Also, in a more general sense, I'm just going to say this here:
The problem is not that Magnus is literally impossible to kill without a vastly higher number of points.
The problem is also not that Magnus deals out a significant amount of reliable, extremely accurate damage.

The problem is that Magnus is nearly impossible to kill without a vastly higher number of points AND he can deal out a significant amount of reliable, extremely accurate damage.

Every other enemy has a weakness. Either they're clunky and slow, or they're not that tough, or their damage is middling compared to their durability. Not Magnus. Magnus has no weaknesses. Even things that traditionally bypass models with no weaknesses (Namely, D weapons,) he can safely ignore.

Waaaghpower wrote:
It was never answered, so I'll ask it here:
How, exactly, are the Warlords hurting him? All of the D weapons that a Warlord can bring are blast weapons. Blast weapons cannot hurt swooping FMCs or GFMCs. Period. No snaps, no non-snaps, no scattering, nothing. Nada. Zilch...

After double-checking I've noticed that just got FAQed out. Initial printing the FMCs' Hard to Hit rule didn't include the clause in the Flyer's that made it immune to blasts/templates.

So if you want to take advantage of the five D hits to kill you need Pylons, or Magnus needs to get up close to a few Blastcannon Stormsurges.

Never mind the caveat against Vindicare Assassins, for 1,500 points it'd be interesting to see a match up with 10 Culexus Assassins plus change.

While I love the imagery of 10 of them converging from all sides firing their Animus Specula (50+ shots combined, assuming he has no upgraded allies!), in reality he'd probably just hop over them. But even so, they'd be hard for him to pick off one at a time with their being totally immune to Psychic powers as well as stripping any buffs he applies to himself. But more than that, in close combat he'd still be reduced to WS1 since it's an "attacks as if" rather than "reduced to" effect (i.e- his characteristic isn't actually changed), plus if they get any shooting they get 5+ minimum shots per Animus Speculum (at 12").


Still, other than that match-up I'd have to agree that these rules are OP even for such a large amount of points; fewer Cullexus Assassins should still reign him in a bit (plus allow stripping of maledictions) but they couldn't stop him wiping out anything else you bring. If you're playing custom rules my Inquisition codex could probably build a list that could compete, but only by vastly over-specialising (not un-fluffy if they're specifically formed in an effort to fight him though I guess), but even so it'd be pushing it since he can still fly around, making it hard to actually bring anything to bear unless you goad your opponent for being a coward into facing you head on.

Official rules though? I'm not sure it'd be any fun to play against at any points scale. I think as a general rule something that resilient shouldn't be so destructive and also hand out buffs left and right; he also seems to have hard counters to everything, and on the odd occasion when he is hit and wounded, he can potentially just re-roll a failed save? I know at that points scale you can get titans, but they're not actually that hard to bring down with enough firepower (which you should have in that type of game). Firepower doesn't seem much use against Magnus though if he can fly to reduce most things to Snap Shots then shrug off anything that does get through before sheltering in combat where he pretty much can't be killed by anyone.


I dunno, I like the idea of capturing more of the flavour of the background, but the fluff's sole purpose is to make him seem indestructible and unstoppable; it needs some kind of balancing out, or you need to have rules to allow him to suddenly feel remorse when the Emperor reaches out through the astronomicon, or Tzeentch gets bored and turns him into a bowl of soup.

 Haravikk wrote:
...I dunno, I like the idea of capturing more of the flavour of the background, but the fluff's sole purpose is to make him seem indestructible and unstoppable; it needs some kind of balancing out, or you need to have rules to allow him to suddenly feel remorse when the Emperor reaches out through the astronomicon, or Tzeentch gets bored and turns him into a bowl of soup.

To paraphrase a recent thread over in General Discussion the problem isn't that GW has novelists writing rules, it's that the novelists and the rules people communicate about as much as the rules people do internally (read: none), and the novelists are terrible. Godly Daemons who blow up battlefleets and planets before turning and scarpering because their deus-ex-machina hard-counter hit the table make for terrible stories and terrible games.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Haravikk wrote:
...I dunno, I like the idea of capturing more of the flavour of the background, but the fluff's sole purpose is to make him seem indestructible and unstoppable; it needs some kind of balancing out, or you need to have rules to allow him to suddenly feel remorse when the Emperor reaches out through the astronomicon, or Tzeentch gets bored and turns him into a bowl of soup.

To paraphrase a recent thread over in General Discussion the problem isn't that GW has novelists writing rules, it's that the novelists and the rules people communicate about as much as the rules people do internally (read: none), and the novelists are terrible. Godly Daemons who blow up battlefleets and planets before turning and scarpering because their deus-ex-machina hard-counter hit the table make for terrible stories and terrible games.

Yet it's how a lot of GW novels work; unstoppable enemies that get countered by some flimsy deus ex machina. My point was that if the rules aim to fully capture the power of the background, it needs to have the same ridiculous weaknesses :p
Really though I'd prefer things to be toned down to be actually playable.


I've not necessarily got a problem with an expensive model being powerful, but it's the sheer number of hard-counters it has that really bothers me. There are better alternatives:

• Invulnerable Save: Instead of being impossible to ignore, Magnus could instead have a built in invulnerable save, plus another from his armour. This would offer no extra protection, but provides redundancy, so it would take two effects to strip it completely; if someone has brought that kind of combo to the table then it should work IMO, as they still need to get a chance to pull it off in the first place.
  
• Perils of the Warp: There's really no need to ignore it, as Magnus already has a free re-roll; since he's pretty much all about the Psychic phase anyway it seems silly to eliminate one of the most important uses for this re-roll, as it basically means it's reserved for re-rolling one save in your opponent's turn, but Magnus already has the ability to fly if he needs more defence (and isn't exactly vulnerable to start with).
  
• Characteristic Penalties: This is another really cheesy counter; it would be better if he had a psychic power that allowed him to reset his characteristics (except for Wounds of course), this way he's sacrificing some of his huge psychic power to do this (so it's not hard for him to do) without flat out destroying any synergy between enemy units that could be used to make a dent in him.
  
• Toughness: He doesn't need a 2+ armour save given that he already has high Toughness, an invulnerable save and the ability to fly for extra defence already, plus a re-roll he can hold back for saving throws if he wants to. I mean, most massed fire can't hurt him at all, while most anti-tank won't punch through easily either; if there is enough on the board to threaten him, then he can simply remain airborne until it's thinned out a bit.

Other than that, the special vortex power should probably just be a single turn affair, or have its Strength dialled back from D, as he has D beams for such targets anyway.
I don't think there's any need for him to bolster nearby units with psychic power, except perhaps to improve warp charge harnessing rolls for those that are already Psykers; boosting levels on nearby units and granting Psyker is just too complex anyway, as well incredibly powerful.

For the Stave of Change; I quite like the idea of transmuting into Chaos Spawn, but is this the rule as written for the official rules? A Toughness test against each kill seems a bit much, as he could get 3 or 4 spawn per turn easily by wading into a unit with guard-stats.

He should also have a fixed Warlord Trait; the ability to select any two is just too exploitable on such a powerful character.