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I know this is probably getting old but Magnus dropped and he's well....hilarioulsy underwhelming given his fluff. I mean he shows up and his power turns Fenris into a hellhole, boiling seas, and making vast deserts and volcanic plains on what was previously a world with a mean temperature of about -100C or so. Then he beats the crap out of 5 Dreadknights and a Grand Master in a fight lasting about 10 seconds. Then he destroys what can be assumed to be a vast imperial fleet in orbit, with a total mass of a dozen or so trillion tons effortelssly and while laughing his ass off at the space wolves, etc insert more feats worthy of C'tan here...
And on the table top? Well he's not even a GC...
So here he is....

Magnus the Red, Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch
Unit Type: Flying Gargantuan Creature (Character)
WS:9 BS:8 S:8 T:8 W:9 I:6 A:6 LD:10 SV:2+/4++ 1500 points
***Special Rules: Rage of the King of Sorcerers, The Sorcerer King, Psyker (Mastery Level 5), Daemon Primarch, Daemon Lord
***Wargear: Grand Stave of Change, Panoply of the Sorcerer King
-Rage of the King of Sorcerers: Magnus harnesses the full scope of his godlike psychic power to let loose a single attack capable of destroying vast imperial fleets in one fell swoop. Magnus may choose to not move or use other powers for a turn at the start of the movement phase. If he does so he has the option to cast the following power at the start of the psychic phase. Magnus does not add his psychic mastery to the warp charge pool the turn he uses this power. Has the following Profile: S: D, AP:1, Apocalyptic (10”) Blast, Vortex, Infinite Range, Magnus may control the direction (not the distance) of the scatter, The Vortex may only dissipate after at least 3 of Magnus' controlling player's turns have passed since it has appeared (If a 1 is rolled for scatter within your first 3 turns since its' appearance it instead remains motionless and stays where it was). This power may not be denied under any circumstances. This power may only be used once per game. Magnus must automatically take a grounding test after using this power.
-Chosen of Tzeentch: Magnus possesses an unmodifiable 2+ Deny the Witch (only usable against powers specifically targeting him), and grants his player the ability to force a reroll of any one di (rolled that turn) once per turn. There are no limits on the type of di roll that may be forced to be rerolled. Magnus allows all friendly units within 24 inches of him to use his leadership of 10. Magnus may not suffer from Perils of the Warp under any circumstances. Friendly units deepstriking within 24 inches of Magnus do not scatter.
-Daemon Primarch: Fear, Fearless, Hatred (Imperium), Eternal Warrior, Fleet, It Will Not Die!, Daemon of Tzeentch, Magnus is automatically the Warlord, Magnus possesses 2 chosen Warlord traits. (Chosen from any combination of warlord traits from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and or Codex: Chaos Daemons.) Magnus may not have his stats lowered (other than wounds through the process of wounding) under any circumstance.
-The Sorcerer King: Magnus knows all powers from the Telekinesis, Tzeentch (including the Gaze of Magnus), and Biomancy disciplines. Magnus may cast up to 5 powers, from any combination of disciplines per turnMagnus treats all powers as requiring 1 less psychic charge than normally needed (all powers still have a minimum cost of 1 warp charge), and harnesses warp charges on a 2+ rather than a 4+ as is normally required. Magnus grants all units within 12 inches of Magnus (except Magnus himself) with the "Psyker" special rule (or the "Psychic Brotherhood" special rule) +1 to their psychic mastery level. Friendly Psykers within 12 inches of Magnus may not suffer Perils of the Warp under any circumstnces. Magnus does not possess the Daemonic Instability Special Rule.
-Panoply of the Sorcerer King: Grants Magnus a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save. Magnus may not have his invulnerability save altered. This armor may not be brokien under any circumstances including by effects such as the Vindicare Assassin's Shield Breaker rule.
-Grand Stave of Change: S:As User, AP:2, Force, Melee, Infantry models killed by the stave (Magnus' melee attacks) who fail a toughness test taken on d6 are transmuted to Chaos Spawn under the control of Magnus (They are now part of Magnus' controlling player's army). The Chaos Spawn created by Magnus may not charge or make any movement the turn they are created.


Notes:
-Cannot have invulnerability save altered from a 4+.
-While he has no inherent resistance to the nonsense of S: D he CAN force a reroll of that 6 on the S: D table. Though that would be his one reroll that turn.
-Cannot have stats lowered due to effects such as Rad weaponry. Doesn't make much sense for them to work on him anyway.

Step 1: Place Magnus in high spot with LoS to most of enemy army.

Step 2: Spam 10" Vortex blasts out of your arse until the opponent flips the table in frustration.

No. Just no.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Step 1: Place Magnus in high spot with LoS to most of enemy army.

Step 2: Spam 10" Vortex blasts out of your arse until the opponent flips the table in frustration.

No. Just no.

Dont know why I'm responding to this relatively simple minded post but a 10" circle is in all likelyhood going to be roughly a 1/20 to 1/30 of your opponents board space in the size of game where a 1300 point model wouldnt get you shot, and because the scatter can only be 6 inches its fairly easy to manuever out of its range. That and a single S: D hit is roughly equivalent to foul smelling wind to most superheavies.
It's also not spammable. It gets one use a game. If anything it has more strategic value because unless the board you're playing on is hideously long you can have it chase them down to your side wherein it will be a constant consideration to them and may cause them to make mistakes.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Step 1: Place Magnus in high spot with LoS to most of enemy army.

Step 2: Spam 10" Vortex blasts out of your arse until the opponent flips the table in frustration.

No. Just no.

S: D, AP:1, Apocalyptic (10”) Blast, Vortex, Infinite Range, Magnus may control the direction (not the distance) of the scatter, The Vortex may only dissipate after at least 3 of Magnus' controlling player's turns have passed since it has appeared (If a 1 is rolled for scatter within your first 3 turns since its' appearance it instead remains motionless and stays where it was). This power may only be used once per game.[i][u]

Even then... A controllable 10" Vortex is kinda crazy.

So he doesn't get re-rolls on saves of 1s?
Also: Letting him pick his own Warlord Traits is incredibly broken. Just using the Daemon Warlord Traits and nothing else, a smart player is always going to pick 'The Warlord and all Daemons of Tzeentch get +1 to their invuln' and either +1 ML or 'Enemy units suffer -1 BS and WS when attacking him.'

In other words, he always has a 2+ invuln (Possibly re-rollable, since it's not clear if he's actually a Daemon of Tzeentch,) and his cheesey forced reroll means that the one weapon that could conceivably hurt him isn't allowed to actually hurt him unless you have a TON of D weapons or get a 1/36 roll.


It's also unclear if he still has his D Beam Weapon, but either way, the ideal way to use him is to constantly spam 6 D shots per turn, since they're only WC2 and he can fire them pretty much unlimited. It *might* be a good idea to cast Warp Speed or maybe Force if you want to get him into Close Combat, but that's hardly even necessary. Or, you can very, very easily drop 6 Burning Chariots every turn, all-but guaranteed, so that in two turns he's gotten his points back in free models.

Tanks, MCs, and other big units are just going to melt, and he's got absolutely no counter since he's completely unkillable.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So he doesn't get re-rolls on saves of 1s?
Also: Letting him pick his own Warlord Traits is incredibly broken. Just using the Daemon Warlord Traits and nothing else, a smart player is always going to pick 'The Warlord and all Daemons of Tzeentch get +1 to their invuln' and either +1 ML or 'Enemy units suffer -1 BS and WS when attacking him.'

In other words, he always has a 2+ invuln (Possibly re-rollable, since it's not clear if he's actually a Daemon of Tzeentch,) and his cheesey forced reroll means that the one weapon that could conceivably hurt him isn't allowed to actually hurt him unless you have a TON of D weapons or get a 1/36 roll.


It's also unclear if he still has his D Beam Weapon, but either way, the ideal way to use him is to constantly spam 6 D shots per turn, since they're only WC2 and he can fire them pretty much unlimited. It *might* be a good idea to cast Warp Speed or maybe Force if you want to get him into Close Combat, but that's hardly even necessary. Or, you can very, very easily drop 6 Burning Chariots every turn, all-but guaranteed, so that in two turns he's gotten his points back in free models.

Tanks, MCs, and other big units are just going to melt, and he's got absolutely no counter since he's completely unkillable.

Someone cant read very well lol.
That warlord trait isnt from C: Daemons 6E or one of the 30k codexes. He doesnt have acess to it.
Its not unclear if hes a daemon of Tzeentch. Its not listed. What does that mean?
Is the beam listed? What does that mean?
He doesnt have access to that power.
Geez its like dealing with my 5 year old.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
So he doesn't get re-rolls on saves of 1s?
Also: Letting him pick his own Warlord Traits is incredibly broken. Just using the Daemon Warlord Traits and nothing else, a smart player is always going to pick 'The Warlord and all Daemons of Tzeentch get +1 to their invuln' and either +1 ML or 'Enemy units suffer -1 BS and WS when attacking him.'

In other words, he always has a 2+ invuln (Possibly re-rollable, since it's not clear if he's actually a Daemon of Tzeentch,) and his cheesey forced reroll means that the one weapon that could conceivably hurt him isn't allowed to actually hurt him unless you have a TON of D weapons or get a 1/36 roll.


It's also unclear if he still has his D Beam Weapon, but either way, the ideal way to use him is to constantly spam 6 D shots per turn, since they're only WC2 and he can fire them pretty much unlimited. It *might* be a good idea to cast Warp Speed or maybe Force if you want to get him into Close Combat, but that's hardly even necessary. Or, you can very, very easily drop 6 Burning Chariots every turn, all-but guaranteed, so that in two turns he's gotten his points back in free models.

Tanks, MCs, and other big units are just going to melt, and he's got absolutely no counter since he's completely unkillable.

Someone cant read very well lol.
That warlord trait isnt from C: Daemons 6E or one of the 30k codexes. He doesnt have acess to it.
Its not unclear if hes a daemon of Tzeentch. Its not listed. What does that mean?
Is the beam listed? What does that mean?
He doesnt have access to that power.
Geez its like dealing with my 5 year old.

Well, there's no need to be a dick.

The beam is a power of Tzeentch. It's not one that you can roll, but it is a power of Tzeentch, meaning that he would have access to it. However, I did realize that he doesn't have access to any other D weapon, his only one is the beam, because you only gave him access to Tzeentch powers, not Change powers.
As for the Warlord traits, they say that they can be taken by anyone who can take traits from the 6E book, though I suppose he'd still have to be a Daemon of Tzeentch. (Though since you say he can automatically choose, he could potentially bypass that ruling - Like I said, the way you have it written is simply not precise or completely clear.) Either way, even without access to those charts, he's still just going to pick whatever the two best available powers are. I don't know what's in the 30k books, but presumably there are two Warlord traits that are just going to be explicitly better than all the other available options, and Magnus has no need reason not to pick those.

And, if I'm being frank, a lot of people forget to post certain things or note them down in the Proposed Rules section. If you want to argue that you meant precisely ever word that you wrote down, though, many of the choices you make are simply bizarre RAW, don't make much balance or sense, and aren't really logical from a place of balance or if approached from a manner of trying to make the character actually be fluffy.


He's the Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch, but he doesn't have the rules for being a Daemon OR a unit of Tzeentch. I suppose the 'Only one Blessing at a time' thing is there for balance reasons, but it doesn't really make sense either - Why would the second best (behind the Emperor) Psyker in the galaxy not be able to effectively use psychic powers to buff himself? He can't even have Force and anything else active.
Why did you give him Eternal Warrior? He's a GMC. That takes precedence. In fact, several of the powers you listed are already given to him, making me wonder if you actually bothered to read all the abilities given to GMCs before you wrote this up.
Why the heck does he get access to Biomancy powers, but not Malefic powers, Change powers, or I dunno, Telepathy and Divination? He's the guy who's known for having an all-seeing eye and perfect control of the world around him by using the Warp, but the only BRB charts you gave him were Biomancy and Telekinesis?
You give him access to two very, very mediocre charts, and then you don't let him use Biomancy effectively by limiting him to one Blessing at a time, meaning that the only really useful power he has access to is... Eh... Doombolt? For the best Psyker in the galaxy, he doesn't offer up much reason to use him.

And he can still suffer Perils of the Warp? What's up with that? (Though, now that I think about it, there's a deliciously cheesy way to kill him, since Condemner Boltguns and psyk-out grenades are just going to chew through his wounds like butter.)

Also, you say 'Magnus may cast up to 5 powers', but you also say 'If you so wish and there are sufficient warp charges Magnus may cast the same power 6 times'. Which takes precedent? Which am I supposed to believe?

Well now, this is a blast from the past.

Come on man, ease up on the attitude. You know that isn't going to help you out here. We've had this fight more than once, but let's take a look.

Waaghpower really did a good job of summing up a lot of the inconsistencies and confusion around this character. But to add on my own commentary, he's kinda one-note here. Now that is certainly true that he is one-note now, but this is more of a lateral move than anything forward. There's not a lot of artistry or subtlety to what you've given him, he has a big vortex and after he pops his load he is a pretty standard flying gargantuan creature melee beatstick. If I saw these rules in action, it certainly wouldn't make me think of Magnus.

That said, I do agree with your core problem, the current Magnus is a little bit iffy for what he is supposed to be. I mean, when my Battle Sisters just punched a grounded Magnus to death after he got rad/psychotrope grenaded, that seemed a little off to me. However, I don't think the answer is making him just more melee beast damage machine.

I think the fact remains that the god-like being you described Magnus as in the OP, the one who can boil entire planets, destroy trillions of tons of starships (Highly unlikely as a trillion tons is a fair bit), simply can't be represented in the tabletop game.

So he has a 10" vortex that moves around in the direction you choose for at least 3 turns? Whilst being a toughness 8, 9 wound flying gargantuan? With basic immunity to everything that could possibly hurt it?

Did your five year old by any chance write these rules? Or is it just trolling?

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
So he has a 10" vortex that moves around in the direction you choose for at least 3 turns? Whilst being a toughness 8, 9 wound flying gargantuan? With basic immunity to everything that could possibly hurt it?

Did your five year old by any chance write these rules? Or is it just trolling?

Yes while costing as much as a Reaver titan which can coat a similar surface area in D anyway. But EVERY turn.
How does it have immunity to everything? Poison and D say hello.
Did yours write your comment?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
So he doesn't get re-rolls on saves of 1s?
Also: Letting him pick his own Warlord Traits is incredibly broken. Just using the Daemon Warlord Traits and nothing else, a smart player is always going to pick 'The Warlord and all Daemons of Tzeentch get +1 to their invuln' and either +1 ML or 'Enemy units suffer -1 BS and WS when attacking him.'

In other words, he always has a 2+ invuln (Possibly re-rollable, since it's not clear if he's actually a Daemon of Tzeentch,) and his cheesey forced reroll means that the one weapon that could conceivably hurt him isn't allowed to actually hurt him unless you have a TON of D weapons or get a 1/36 roll.


It's also unclear if he still has his D Beam Weapon, but either way, the ideal way to use him is to constantly spam 6 D shots per turn, since they're only WC2 and he can fire them pretty much unlimited. It *might* be a good idea to cast Warp Speed or maybe Force if you want to get him into Close Combat, but that's hardly even necessary. Or, you can very, very easily drop 6 Burning Chariots every turn, all-but guaranteed, so that in two turns he's gotten his points back in free models.

Tanks, MCs, and other big units are just going to melt, and he's got absolutely no counter since he's completely unkillable.

Someone cant read very well lol.
That warlord trait isnt from C: Daemons 6E or one of the 30k codexes. He doesnt have acess to it.
Its not unclear if hes a daemon of Tzeentch. Its not listed. What does that mean?
Is the beam listed? What does that mean?
He doesnt have access to that power.
Geez its like dealing with my 5 year old.

Well, there's no need to be a dick.

The beam is a power of Tzeentch. It's not one that you can roll, but it is a power of Tzeentch, meaning that he would have access to it. However, I did realize that he doesn't have access to any other D weapon, his only one is the beam, because you only gave him access to Tzeentch powers, not Change powers.
As for the Warlord traits, they say that they can be taken by anyone who can take traits from the 6E book, though I suppose he'd still have to be a Daemon of Tzeentch. (Though since you say he can automatically choose, he could potentially bypass that ruling - Like I said, the way you have it written is simply not precise or completely clear.) Either way, even without access to those charts, he's still just going to pick whatever the two best available powers are. I don't know what's in the 30k books, but presumably there are two Warlord traits that are just going to be explicitly better than all the other available options, and Magnus has no need reason not to pick those.

And, if I'm being frank, a lot of people forget to post certain things or note them down in the Proposed Rules section. If you want to argue that you meant precisely ever word that you wrote down, though, many of the choices you make are simply bizarre RAW, don't make much balance or sense, and aren't really logical from a place of balance or if approached from a manner of trying to make the character actually be fluffy.


He's the Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch, but he doesn't have the rules for being a Daemon OR a unit of Tzeentch. I suppose the 'Only one Blessing at a time' thing is there for balance reasons, but it doesn't really make sense either - Why would the second best (behind the Emperor) Psyker in the galaxy not be able to effectively use psychic powers to buff himself? He can't even have Force and anything else active.
Why did you give him Eternal Warrior? He's a GMC. That takes precedence. In fact, several of the powers you listed are already given to him, making me wonder if you actually bothered to read all the abilities given to GMCs before you wrote this up.
Why the heck does he get access to Biomancy powers, but not Malefic powers, Change powers, or I dunno, Telepathy and Divination? He's the guy who's known for having an all-seeing eye and perfect control of the world around him by using the Warp, but the only BRB charts you gave him were Biomancy and Telekinesis?
You give him access to two very, very mediocre charts, and then you don't let him use Biomancy effectively by limiting him to one Blessing at a time, meaning that the only really useful power he has access to is... Eh... Doombolt? For the best Psyker in the galaxy, he doesn't offer up much reason to use him.

And he can still suffer Perils of the Warp? What's up with that? (Though, now that I think about it, there's a deliciously cheesy way to kill him, since Condemner Boltguns and psyk-out grenades are just going to chew through his wounds like butter.)

Also, you say 'Magnus may cast up to 5 powers', but you also say 'If you so wish and there are sufficient warp charges Magnus may cast the same power 6 times'. Which takes precedent? Which am I supposed to believe?

I apologize for being a bit standoffish.
The difference between having a choice of warlord traits form C: CD 6E and the 7E version isnt "very bizarre RAW". Its easily understood and intentional.
I thought the Gaze of Magnus was a power of Change. Not Tzeentch. That means he has it by RAW plain and simple.
The more weaknesses the better.
Wait a minute. No I didnt?

He's a gargantuan flyer with a 2+ armour. You need roughly 3000 poison shots to bring him down. So I wouldn't rate poison as a viable option. And he is roughly 6 times more durable than the Titan you mentioned against said D weaponry, based on hard to hit alone.

And no kids here I'm afraid, I like sleeping too much

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
He's a gargantuan flyer with a 2+ armour. You need roughly 3000 poison shots to bring him down. So I wouldn't rate poison as a viable option. And he is roughly 6 times more durable than the Titan you mentioned against said D weaponry, based on hard to hit alone.

And no kids here I'm afraid, I like sleeping too much

Without Sarcasm thats strangely easy to stomach.
What would you do to his statline or typing
?

Honestly if you were to represent him as he is in the fluff, you're going to have a broken model.

Why is him not being gargantuan a problem?

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
Honestly if you were to represent him as he is in the fluff, you're going to have a broken model.

Why is him not being gargantuan a problem?

Well I'd say that him being flying is more a problem than him being a GC,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:
Well now, this is a blast from the past.

Come on man, ease up on the attitude. You know that isn't going to help you out here. We've had this fight more than once, but let's take a look.

Waaghpower really did a good job of summing up a lot of the inconsistencies and confusion around this character. But to add on my own commentary, he's kinda one-note here. Now that is certainly true that he is one-note now, but this is more of a lateral move than anything forward. There's not a lot of artistry or subtlety to what you've given him, he has a big vortex and after he pops his load he is a pretty standard flying gargantuan creature melee beatstick. If I saw these rules in action, it certainly wouldn't make me think of Magnus.

That said, I do agree with your core problem, the current Magnus is a little bit iffy for what he is supposed to be. I mean, when my Battle Sisters just punched a grounded Magnus to death after he got rad/psychotrope grenaded, that seemed a little off to me. However, I don't think the answer is making him just more melee beast damage machine.

Sorry for a bit of double posting but I dont see how he's at all a standard FGC (GC) now.
You're likely going to be casting all your powers with him because he only needs a 2+ and reduces the cost of powers by 1, hes a great warlord option befitting a primarch with two warlord traits, he grants his sons additonal levels of mastery befitting his passion for his legtion, he has the same ability as fateweaver making him a great tactical choice and showing his Tzeentchian loyalty, and Infantry he kills in melee turn into Chaos Spawn.
Sorry I understand this is your subjective opinion, but this unit has so much to distance it from a melee beatstick that it's hard to argue that calling it "a standard FGC beatstick" isnt objectively wrong.

Alright so a lot of edits came in. He's now forced to take a grounding test after using Rage of the Sorcerer King, and a whole bunch of other changes came.

The grounding test makes no difference, since he couldn't've moved to cast it, so he can only cast it from the ground. More than that, it's a 1/3 (1/9 if he pops his reroll) chance of grounding, so... Not that scary.

Give this Magnus the Daemon Lord restriction (may not make up more than 25% of your army) and I'll be fine with it. You want to dump a 10" Vortex out of a T8 FGC? Take it to a 6,000pt Apocalypse game and you'll probably be okay. Take a 350pt minimum CAD to dump this into an 1,850 game, and we're going to need to have words.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Give this Magnus the Daemon Lord restriction (may not make up more than 25% of your army) and I'll be fine with it. You want to dump a 10" Vortex out of a T8 FGC? Take it to a 6,000pt Apocalypse game and you'll probably be okay. Take a 350pt minimum CAD to dump this into an 1,850 game, and we're going to need to have words.

In my head this goes without saying, but I'll add it.

There's still some horrendously broken bits. Giving all nearby Psykers +1 Warp Charge and an inability to Perils is way, way too damned good, because it lets you generate nigh-unstoppable amounts of Warp Charges without any real penalties. (When you can bring dozens of 30pt psyker units that don't take up a lot of space and are all generating two Warp Charges each, that's a problem.)

Since he DOES have access to Gaze of Magnus, that means he will always be dropping 5 rounds of an 18" D Beam every turn. That takes 20 Warp Charges to do so consistently and 25 to be extremely reliable, but since he generates 5 of those and the rest of his army is going to be multiplied, that isn't hard to get at all. That much D is going to obliterate massive chunks of your opponent's army, and there's no way to counter it. (Heck, assuming he has the same formation access that he already did, that's actually 6 D beams under the right circumstances.)

I'm not too worried about him being able to cast Endurance, Iron Arm, and Warp Speed on himself all the time since it reduces the amount of D he can pump out, but it's worth pointing out as another rather-broken combo, just not AS broken. T10, S10, I9, A9, with 4+ FNP. And he's still throwing out two D beams.

I will admit, you did kinda-sorta fix the brokenness with his Warlord Traits, by limiting him to mostly-useless Warlord Traits. Of the 12 options available, 6 are completely useless (being codex-specific or granting a rule he already has,) and another 3-4 are situational and mediocre even when the right situation comes up.


The 'Grounding test' after using his power is also pointless. It causes a 1/3rd chance of taking a wound 1/3rd of the time.



All in all, comparing him to equivalent units is difficult because there aren't many, but next to something like a Reaver titan, he's more durable by far, puts out at-least equivalent damage, much faster, can't be hit by most enemies, works as an incredibly potent force multiplier, and is effectively immune to D weapons unless your opponent is incredibly lucky or has a crapton of them. The Reaver's only advantage is that his firepower doesn't rely on a psychic test - Aside from that one difference, a Reaver is far worse in every way.

Waaaghpower wrote:
...Since he DOES have access to Gaze of Magnus, that means he will always be dropping 5 rounds of an 18" D Beam every turn. That takes 20 Warp Charges to do so consistently and 25 to be extremely reliable, but since he generates 5 of those and the rest of his army is going to be multiplied, that isn't hard to get at all. That much D is going to obliterate massive chunks of your opponent's army, and there's no way to counter it. (Heck, assuming he has the same formation access that he already did, that's actually 6 D beams under the right circumstances.)...

He's also 1,500pts. For the same price (as of the HH5 rules, will have to double-check to find the most current 40k rules) you could have a Reaver dumping out eight D-strength Large Blasts at 96" range every turn that are even harder to interact with/stop.

1,500pt giant Titans are supposed to obliterate large chunks of your opponent's army every turn. They're there to make Apocalypse games go a bit faster.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...Since he DOES have access to Gaze of Magnus, that means he will always be dropping 5 rounds of an 18" D Beam every turn. That takes 20 Warp Charges to do so consistently and 25 to be extremely reliable, but since he generates 5 of those and the rest of his army is going to be multiplied, that isn't hard to get at all. That much D is going to obliterate massive chunks of your opponent's army, and there's no way to counter it. (Heck, assuming he has the same formation access that he already did, that's actually 6 D beams under the right circumstances.)...

He's also 1,500pts. For the same price (as of the HH5 rules, will have to double-check to find the most current 40k rules) you could have a Reaver dumping out eight D-strength Large Blasts at 96" range every turn that are even harder to interact with/stop.

1,500pt giant Titans are supposed to obliterate large chunks of your opponent's army every turn. They're there to make Apocalypse games go a bit faster.

It's 1475 for 40k rules. And yeah, he can drop 8 blasts, but can he do so accurately? No, he still scatters all over the place. Can he precisely skewer multiple units? No, the most he can target is 3. Can he be easily tarpitted in Melee? Yes, at least for the 40k version.
The Reaver deals out more D-strength SHOTS, but five 18" beams are going to get more, and more accurate, D-strength HITS. Magnus is also all-but impossible to kill unless you have multiple skyfire D weapons and the world's luckiest dice. Magnus ALSO acts as a force multiplier, AND cannot be tarpitted. Not to mention that he's vastly more manueverable, and if you do decide to throw him into combat he can give you tons of free models on top of everything else.

Oh, and that Reaver build is generally considered to be cheesy, a little OP, and not very fun to play against. So using him as a measuring stick is a crummy idea.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...Since he DOES have access to Gaze of Magnus, that means he will always be dropping 5 rounds of an 18" D Beam every turn. That takes 20 Warp Charges to do so consistently and 25 to be extremely reliable, but since he generates 5 of those and the rest of his army is going to be multiplied, that isn't hard to get at all. That much D is going to obliterate massive chunks of your opponent's army, and there's no way to counter it. (Heck, assuming he has the same formation access that he already did, that's actually 6 D beams under the right circumstances.)...

He's also 1,500pts. For the same price (as of the HH5 rules, will have to double-check to find the most current 40k rules) you could have a Reaver dumping out eight D-strength Large Blasts at 96" range every turn that are even harder to interact with/stop.

1,500pt giant Titans are supposed to obliterate large chunks of your opponent's army every turn. They're there to make Apocalypse games go a bit faster.

It's 1475 for 40k rules. And yeah, he can drop 8 blasts, but can he do so accurately? No, he still scatters all over the place. Can he precisely skewer multiple units? No, the most he can target is 3. Can he be easily tarpitted in Melee? Yes, at least for the 40k version.
The Reaver deals out more D-strength SHOTS, but five 18" beams are going to get more, and more accurate, D-strength HITS. Magnus is also all-but impossible to kill unless you have multiple skyfire D weapons and the world's luckiest dice. Magnus ALSO acts as a force multiplier, AND cannot be tarpitted. Not to mention that he's vastly more manueverable, and if you do decide to throw him into combat he can give you tons of free models on top of everything else.

Oh, and that Reaver build is generally considered to be cheesy, a little OP, and not very fun to play against. So using him as a measuring stick is a crummy idea.

The points stands that the Reaver IS significantly tougher and will coat a larger area in flaming hot D. Magnus is going to get grounded pretty fast. Remember that you don't have to actually be Wounded to be forced to take a grounding test. Just hit. The reaver is also immune to being one shot by D which at this point even non superheavies can bring to the table.
The Reaver has BS4. He is fairly accurate and around half the time wont scatter at all and when he does will only do so a couple of inches. Not accounting for the fact that 18" is a piss poor range and Magnus will have to swoop for at least 2 turns to get in range to use it. More like 3 or 4 assuming you and your opponent want to have any terrain on the table.
I'm not seeing how he's impossible to kill honestly. Once he's grounded he's effectively dead in the water if your opponent actively targets him.
Those 20 other Warp Charges amount to about 500 more points.....

You do have to be wounded. It's not just a hit.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You do have to be wounded. It's not just a hit.

Does the wound have to be unsaved? I'm a bit rusty.

Yes. Grounding tests happen once at the end of any phase where he suffers an unsaved wound. So it's only one test no matter how many wounds or from how many sources.

How is he impossible to kill?
Well, to have a significant chance of even wounding him, you need a weapon with Skyfire, S7+, and AP2. That is rare and usually expensive.
Even then, you have about a 1/3rd chance of getting past his invuln.
D weapons usually don't have skyfire. Even if they manage to hit him, they can't roll a '6', because it'll be rerolled. So, again, a 1/3rd chance of getting wounds.


It takes 94 S8 AP2 shots to kill Magnus with Skyfire and BS4, or 32 D shots with the same. This cost is hard to calculate, but from almost any source will be 5000+ points.
He also has Life Leech to make him regenerate wounds, or Iron Arm to make him even harder to wound.


A Reaver, though? No saves. No rerolls. No bonuses. It's too big to even get Cover. You do need anti-tank fire, but since it's easy to get Melta in Drop Pods these days... 40 S8 AP1 Melta shots with BS4, which incidentally costs around 1500 points.



And yeah, batteries do cost points, but those battery units aren't going to be useless otherwise. Armies need objective campers and tarpits either way.

Let's see how many Onager Dunecrawlers with Icarus Arrays it takes to kill this Magnus. You basically have to one-turn kill him, or he'll wreck your face so hard. SO HARD.

Each Onager is 125 points, by the way, and has 1 S7 AP2 shot, 2 S7 AP4 twin-linked, and 5 S6 AP4. I'll assume they're popping the +1 BS Doctrina, just to make the math not too difficult.

The one S7 shot hits 5/6 shots, wounds 5/18, and gets 35/216 through his invuln.

The two S7 twin-linked shots hit 70/36 (35/18) shots, wounds 35/54, and get 35/1944 through his armor.

The five S6 shots hit 25/6 shots, wounds 25/36, and get 25/1296 through his armour.

So that is 35/216 (630/3888), 35/1944 (70/3888) and 25/1296 (75/3888) for a total of 775/3888, or just under one fifth of a wound. So that's 5 Dunecrawlers to reliably put a wound on Magnus. That's 625 points, and won't kill him over the course of a game. To actually kill him in one turn, you need just over 45 Dunecrawlers, or 5625 points. And the thing is, with his D-Blast, he can easily kill half of them in one turn, if not more.

And if he has Iron Arm up? The S6 can't hurt him, and the S7 do half as many wounds, for only ((315+35)/3888) 350/3888 or 175/1944. That's not even a tenth of a wound, so you need 11 Dunecrawlers (1375 points) to put a wound on him each turn, or just about 100 Dunecrawlers (12500 points) to kill him in one turn.