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LightKing wrote:
I heard 8th is going to simplify the hell out of the game?

is this true?

Nobody knows if or when 8th is happening, let alone what it will change.

8th edition....

GodDamUser wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I (mostly) agree with you. I don't think it has anything to do with 'modern mechanics' though. They could take the game back to its 3rd Ed roots, create a robust and extensive system of universal special rules that rather than constantly making special case rules, ditch the fething formation nonsense completely, and it would work. No need to reinvent the wheel.

But yes, burn and churn for the current state of the game. That is required, and sadly, as you said, I don't think it'll happen.

See I disagree with the Formations things here.. The idea of formations are awesome and is meant for you to make more fluffy armies

Its just the select few that are too strong that make people rue them

I'm gonna agree here, formations aren't bad at all, they make things MUCH more fluffy, there are a few formations that are a tad broken but by and large the idea is good. the Gladius for example, not a bad idea, and no one would have issue with it if it didn't give free transports in a battle company

Just in time for BAO!

Death of the emprah and the universe explodes, anyway we'll see if it 8th or Adapticus titanicus or even something tat slipped under the radar

 Gamgee wrote:

Ben2 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:

Edit
When do we expect GS3 ending spoilers to drop?

These already dropped didn't they?

Link?

What? No please?

BrianDavion wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
See I disagree with the Formations things here.. The idea of formations are awesome and is meant for you to make more fluffy armies

Its just the select few that are too strong that make people rue them

I'm gonna agree here, formations aren't bad at all, they make things MUCH more fluffy, there are a few formations that are a tad broken but by and large the idea is good. the Gladius for example, not a bad idea, and no one would have issue with it if it didn't give free transports in a battle company

I 'spose it's more that I like the idea of formations as a concept, but I hate the execution. It should be done like the original version of Apocalypse, where the formation has a points cost so to get the benefit taking the formation you have to pay for it.

And no formation, ever, at any stage, should ever - ever - give free transports/unit upgrades/wargear/etc. That is daft.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
See I disagree with the Formations things here.. The idea of formations are awesome and is meant for you to make more fluffy armies

Its just the select few that are too strong that make people rue them

I'm gonna agree here, formations aren't bad at all, they make things MUCH more fluffy, there are a few formations that are a tad broken but by and large the idea is good. the Gladius for example, not a bad idea, and no one would have issue with it if it didn't give free transports in a battle company

I 'spose it's more that I like the idea of formations as a concept, but I hate the execution. It should be done like the original version of Apocalypse, where the formation has a points cost so to get the benefit taking the formation you have to pay for it.

And no formation, ever, at any stage, should ever - ever - give free transports/unit upgrades/wargear/etc. That is daft.

So like Battalions in AoS?

I've never seen how those work.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've never seen how those work.

You pay for them if you have the correct models in your army. Those models now get benefits from the battalion. You pay points, usually anywhere from 20-200 points per battalion to be included in your army. Those models cannot be a part of any other battalion now.

Example: Firelance Starhost
1 Scar Vet on Cold one Or Carnosaur
3 units of Saurus Knights

-Azyrite Hunters Bonus
-Blazing Cohort Bonus

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've never seen how those work.

They still count for your unit cost (Leader, Behemoth, Battleline/Other), and they have an actual cost to them. It'd be like if you tried to take several Triptide formations but it would not count because you'd go over your Behemoth limit and would not have any battleline(Troops) to function as an actual army.

Personally believe the AoS battalion treatment makes the most sense, is the most understandable, the fairest, and the easiest to regulate.
They are simple and clean (Like one of my favorite songs.)
Oh Utada....

No, go back to percentage based armies, make people do maths! In their heads, too!
Was it Epic that had the unit/ formation card system? I liked that system. I like other things too.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
See I disagree with the Formations things here.. The idea of formations are awesome and is meant for you to make more fluffy armies

Its just the select few that are too strong that make people rue them

I'm gonna agree here, formations aren't bad at all, they make things MUCH more fluffy, there are a few formations that are a tad broken but by and large the idea is good. the Gladius for example, not a bad idea, and no one would have issue with it if it didn't give free transports in a battle company

I 'spose it's more that I like the idea of formations as a concept, but I hate the execution. It should be done like the original version of Apocalypse, where the formation has a points cost so to get the benefit taking the formation you have to pay for it.

And no formation, ever, at any stage, should ever - ever - give free transports/unit upgrades/wargear/etc. That is daft.

People always get stuck on 'oh free transports, free wargear, blah, blah, blah' like the fact that it has an exact point value in a codex makes it somehow mystical. EVERY FORMATION GIVES FREE STUFF. Just because you can't total out the exact number of points you're getting out of it doesn't mean it's not a huge powerboost *cough*skyhammer*cough*.



I will say though that having formations be free is just bad. There should always be a lever you can pull to adjust things that isn't just nuking a model's usefulness outside of the super OP formation. Once they have points now you can argue that just getting discounts on upgrades/models is a boring, finicky way for formations to work and that getting to do something unique or cool instead would be better, but that's more about how things feel than actual balance.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
What a time to be alive.

3 editions in 5 years.

You think they'd know what they were doing by now.

I fear they do know what they're doing. They're selling drugs to addicts. People lap up every garbage codex supplement with 1 page of extra rules to make their army better. People drop hundreds on doubles and triples of models just to field formations with a free powerup. 3 editions in 5 years sounds bad to us, but if customers are willing to pay for a new rulebook every 2 years, why wouldn't they print one? If people pay for garbage, why work hard to make it good? Just sell them the garbage.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They still count for your unit cost (Leader, Behemoth, Battleline/Other), and they have an actual cost to them. It'd be like if you tried to take several Triptide formations but it would not count because you'd go over your Behemoth limit and would not have any battleline(Troops) to function as an actual army.

You mean that AoS, the game that started with a rules pamphlet and had special rules that required you to dance and grow beards now has a more organised set of army construction set than Warhammer "Dumpster Fire" 40,000?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They still count for your unit cost (Leader, Behemoth, Battleline/Other), and they have an actual cost to them. It'd be like if you tried to take several Triptide formations but it would not count because you'd go over your Behemoth limit and would not have any battleline(Troops) to function as an actual army.

You mean that AoS, the game that started with a rules pamphlet and had special rules that required you to dance and grow beards now has a more organised set of army construction set than Warhammer "Dumpster Fire" 40,000?

Very minimal organization rules. And frankly lack of those or points was never biggest problem with AOS. And the real problems still haven't been fixed.

Joyboozer wrote:
Was it Epic that had the unit/ formation card system? I liked that system. I like other things too.

I've wondered if such a system could work for 40K. It would allow for armies to have unique organisations, like the 'Nids did in Epic.

ERJAK wrote:
People always get stuck on 'oh free transports, free wargear, blah, blah, blah' like the fact that it has an exact point value in a codex makes it somehow mystical. EVERY FORMATION GIVES FREE STUFF. Just because you can't total out the exact number of points you're getting out of it doesn't mean it's not a huge powerboost *cough*skyhammer*cough*.

Few formations give you hundreds of points over your opponent like the Marine and AdMech ones do though. That's a serious problem when you're taking hundreds of points in transports, or upgrading every unit with as much stuff as they can legally carry, all for free. You are playing at a points advantage then, and playing 1850 points vs 2200 points isn't fair. Wrapping that up in a "But it's a formation!" doesn't make it any better. Yes, other formations give you free extra rules, but that's the point of formations. Formations actively giving you whole new units/free everything is a terrible rules decision.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They still count for your unit cost (Leader, Behemoth, Battleline/Other), and they have an actual cost to them. It'd be like if you tried to take several Triptide formations but it would not count because you'd go over your Behemoth limit and would not have any battleline(Troops) to function as an actual army.

You mean that AoS, the game that started with a rules pamphlet and had special rules that required you to dance and grow beards now has a more organised set of army construction set than Warhammer "Dumpster Fire" 40,000?

Aos has come a long way in a short time. The generals handbook is essentially the aos rulebook. It is the improvements that Aos has seen which gives me hope that 40k will get an improved ruleset.

Sorry, I messed up my quote in that post back there, and that seems to have buggered up everyone else's reply to me.

I mean if they get rid of the free units formations I think they should also get rid of summoning since it's basically the same thing... But after that the line gets blurry. Are formations with respawning units okay? (Eg Skyblight and the cultist formation?

I don't expect a major shift coming. There are to many existing rules for that. Some things will just br straight up broken. The only way I could see it actually working is if they published a new book and then released all of the updated codexes again online for free. Which they won't do.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Was it Epic that had the unit/ formation card system? I liked that system. I like other things too.

I've wondered if such a system could work for 40K. It would allow for armies to have unique organisations, like the 'Nids did in Epic.

ERJAK wrote:
People always get stuck on 'oh free transports, free wargear, blah, blah, blah' like the fact that it has an exact point value in a codex makes it somehow mystical. EVERY FORMATION GIVES FREE STUFF. Just because you can't total out the exact number of points you're getting out of it doesn't mean it's not a huge powerboost *cough*skyhammer*cough*.

Few formations give you hundreds of points over your opponent like the Marine and AdMech ones do though. That's a serious problem when you're taking hundreds of points in transports, or upgrading every unit with as much stuff as they can legally carry, all for free. You are playing at a points advantage then, and playing 1850 points vs 2200 points isn't fair. Wrapping that up in a "But it's a formation!" doesn't make it any better. Yes, other formations give you free extra rules, but that's the point of formations. Formations actively giving you whole new units/free everything is a terrible rules decision.

and I suspect GW agrees with you on that. we've not seen a new formation that gives you "free stuff" in awhile. my gut feeling in GW's realized it's a bad one too

 Silent_Tempest wrote:
I mean if they get rid of the free units formations I think they should also get rid of summoning since it's basically the same thing... But after that the line gets blurry. Are formations with respawning units okay? (Eg Skyblight and the cultist formation?

I don't expect a major shift coming. There are to many existing rules for that. Some things will just br straight up broken. The only way I could see it actually working is if they published a new book and then released all of the updated codexes again online for free. Which they won't do.

I like summoning. Are there as many people who hate summoned my as there are who hate formations?

*skims through Generals' Handbook*

Reinforcement points? Who thought that was a good idea?

Whilst 40K does need a massive ground-up overhaul to remove the endless bloat that it has attracted over 2 editions, I really do hope it doesn't get as simplified as the AoS rules.

I mean, it's nice that they added Matched Play and gave everything points, but each unit can still be armed with whatever. Unit options, wargear options and characters are all just "blah" in those rules, seemingly not costing anything above the base-line guys in the unit. That's no way to balance a ruleset. Some things are worth more than others, and a Devastator Squad w/4 Missile Launchers is worth more than a Devastator Squad where you've (for whatever reason) chosen to take nothing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*skims through Generals' Handbook*
Whilst 40K does need a massive ground-up overhaul to remove the endless bloat that it has attracted over 2 editions, I really do home it doesn't get as simplified as the AoS rules.

Hear, hear. These are my thoughts exactly. I find it nice that there are two different types of game you can play and that both have completely different rule sets. AoS for quick games and 40K for huge games. Them's my thoughts at least

NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Silent_Tempest wrote:
I mean if they get rid of the free units formations I think they should also get rid of summoning since it's basically the same thing... But after that the line gets blurry. Are formations with respawning units okay? (Eg Skyblight and the cultist formation?

I don't expect a major shift coming. There are to many existing rules for that. Some things will just br straight up broken. The only way I could see it actually working is if they published a new book and then released all of the updated codexes again online for free. Which they won't do.

I like summoning. Are there as many people who hate summoned my as there are who hate formations?

I definitely hate it for the same reason I hate free stuff formations. Tons of free points/units/warp charges. Breaks a fundamental rule of the game: We both use armies of the same point level. I think the same of those new bull gak horrors. Those rules are completely broken. Another thing that has always bothered me about summoning is the wide access. I feel like only Chaos Space Marines/Renegades should be able to summon. (Yes not demons.)

I also don't really understand why everything thinks the game is "bloated". You have to roll for psychic powers which s new and does slow the game down a bit. The rules for demonic gifts also slows the game down. Other than that? I don't get it the game about the same amount of rules as it always has. Army selection is more complicated with their being like 3 times of the number sources. (That I would like to see fixed. There's just to god dam many sources of rules.) But these don't affect the game when you're actually playing it.

I would like to see them revamp warlord traits since so many games they literally useless. (+3 to run? To bad my warlord is riding a bike... )

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*skims through Generals' Handbook*

Reinforcement points? Who thought that was a good idea?

Whilst 40K does need a massive ground-up overhaul to remove the endless bloat that it has attracted over 2 editions, I really do home it doesn't get as simplified as the AoS rules.

I mean, it's nice that they added Matched Play and gave everything points, but each unit can still be armed with whatever. Unit options, wargear options and characters are all just "blah" in those rules, seemingly not costing anything above the base-line guys in the unit. That's no way to balance a ruleset. Some things are worth more than others, and a Devastator Squad w/4 Missile Launchers is worth more than a Devastator Squad where you've (for whatever reason) chosen to take nothing.

That's where you're wrong Batman!
But seriously, comparing 40k to AoS is silly - they are different.
People are hoping some logic is applied to 40k's ruleset, that's all...

All we all want is less bloat, less OP formations, fun, and above all else - an easier time for new people to get into the game!

Colour me intrigued.

Neronoxx wrote:
But seriously, comparing 40k to AoS is silly - they are different.

1. Comparing rulesets from different games isn't 'silly'.
2. Comparing rulesets from games that are different isn't 'silly' either.
3. AoS and 40K are not as different as WFB and 40K were. Both are skirmish (apparently) level games involving squads of loose miniatures and various heroes and big units. They're like a dozen other games out there.