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This all sounds eerily familiar to the hemming and hawing I was hearing when Imperial Knights came around.

Seems like 40k survived those dark times, I'm sure Rowboat Cunningham won't break the game wide open.

As an Ork player, I agree with most of my kin in that he still doesn't seem more overpowered than the ridiculous cheese already present in the meta. Just another thing on an already long list of models we'll struggle to fight against...

 master of ordinance wrote:
I wish my Guard had something that was as terrible as Girlyman.

Amusingly... they can! Because Girlyman is a unit of the Imperium rather than an astartes unit, you can take him with any Imperial army. Which just makes me shake my head and sigh at the at-best-obnoxious fluff implications, but that's life.


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 Skerr wrote:
I wonder if future primarchs will be MC's or if this is a direct result of the armor.

I think he's an MC because of his ego demanding that he stand alone.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Except a riptide is blasting you with a demolisher cannon (basically) every turn from 60 inch range - in the riptid wing hes doing it twice. The riptide is also a stand alone unit that can do almost everything well. Gurly requires support and hes still only doing 1 thing well - and even then is still not as strong as a wraitknight in CC whilst being slower.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Will you ever stop complaining about Riptides in every single thread?

 Melissia wrote:
I think he's an MC because of his ego demanding that he stand alone.

It's just GW continuing their trend 'let's make things that have absolutely no business being MC into MCs, because who even knows'.

Like you know, Dreadknight, Riptide, every form of 30k and 40k battle-automata and so on and so forth.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Will you ever stop complaining about Riptides in every single thread?

Well, it's an MC. And this guy is an MC. They both have 2+, so the comparison seems unavoidable. We can also compare to DK, if you like.

I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Except a riptide is blasting you with a demolisher cannon (basically) every turn from 60 inch range - in the riptid wing hes doing it twice. The riptide is also a stand alone unit that can do almost everything well. Gurly requires support and hes still only doing 1 thing well - and even then is still not as strong as a wraitknight in CC whilst being slower.

So your arguement from this is...

Guilliman is bad because he's not Tau or Eldar.

Am I reading this right?

It's a known issue that Tau and Eldar are underpriced as anything. But Guilliman fills a different role and manages to do it very well in comparison. The only other things that are in a similar boat in terms of what they're supposed to be doing are, for the sake of argument the Avatar and the Swarmlord.

For one, the closest you can get to the buff bubble that Guilliman is would be the Avatar. Robbie's 100 points more, far more survivable (2+/3++, FNP, Eternal Warrior, the ability to get back up compared to a 3+/5++), provides far, far more utility in his bubble (for one his reroll buff is tablewide and factionwide - the Avatar only affects Craftworlders, not Dark Eldar or Harlies) and, oh yeah, the entire Command Trait tree.

That's right folks, Robbie's 12 inch bubble brings - substituting his own Ld for the units own (on top of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning and Fear checks), forcing enemy units to use their lowest LD in the bubble, Move through Cover, 1 inch extra to running and charging, rerolls of To Hit of 1 for shooting and Assault.

The Avatar gives you...uh...Fearless, Furious Charge and Rage.

I'm not even factoring the Swarmlord into this because...let's be honest. For his points cost the Swarmlord is useless. Sure, he's got a bigger bubble. But...that's really all he has. He has none of the utility of Robbie or the Avatar. He buffs a single unit, they buff ALL of them.

Robbie might seem useless if you're running bike or drop spam. But Robbie in a fireline or advancing forward to be mid-range? Oh lordy. Let's not forget Precision Strikes and Shots with his S6 AP 2 rending heavy bolter. Robbie can happily waddle forward each turn and selectively pick out a heavy weapon, special weapon and character from a unit per turn on his own. Considering the amount of Deathstars that rely on a single tough character soaking the wounds of their ridiculous unit this is....rather brutal.

But here's the kicker.

Robbie can be slapped in the same army as Cawl and Celestine. You have 3 very difficult to take down buffers who are no slouches in combat. Sure, you're looking at 750 points of characters. But my god, one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

And that list instantly loses to Gladius. Good job, Robbie.

EddieJA wrote:
I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

I'm just using ++ as an indicator of invuln.

So it's 2+/3++/5+ FNP. With Eternal warrior. And an ability to rez on a 4+ with D3 wounds. Who also rerolls 1s to hit in shooting and assault. With Precision Strikes/Shots.

Really.


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Martel732 wrote:
And that list instantly loses to Gladius. Good job, Robbie.

Hey, nice ability to read.

one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

Unsurprisingly the 'half the armies in the game' statement doesn't include the Holy Trinity of Tau, Eldar and SM. You're still special snowflakes. Don't worry.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

EddieJA wrote:
I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

I'm just using ++ as an indicator of invuln.

So it's 2+/3++/5+ FNP. With Eternal warrior. And an ability to rez on a 4+ with D3 wounds. Who also rerolls 1s to hit in shooting and assault. With Precision Strikes/Shots.

Really.

So he's basically 1.5 stimtides in a riptide wing. Who has to punch things to be dangerous. As many times as I haven't even made it to CC vs Tau and Eldar, I can't feel bad for them about this. Robbie changes nothing.


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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

EddieJA wrote:
I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

I'm just using ++ as an indicator of invuln.

So it's 2+/3++/5+ FNP. With Eternal warrior. And an ability to rez on a 4+ with D3 wounds. Who also rerolls 1s to hit in shooting and assault. With Precision Strikes/Shots.

Really.


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Martel732 wrote:
And that list instantly loses to Gladius. Good job, Robbie.

Hey, nice ability to read.

one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

Unsurprisingly the 'half the armies in the game' statement doesn't include the Holy Trinity of Tau, Eldar and SM. You're still special snowflakes. Don't worry.

Gladius doesn't need to remove them to win. That's the point.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Unsurprisingly the 'half the armies in the game' statement doesn't include the Holy Trinity of Tau, Eldar and SM. You're still special snowflakes. Don't worry.

But now you're trying to talk logic instead of emotions, and we all know that's not going to help.

I still think Celestine is most horrifying with SW. She makes them even special snowflakier.

Martel732 wrote:

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Will you ever stop complaining about Riptides in every single thread?

Well, it's an MC. And this guy is an MC. They both have 2+, so the comparison seems unavoidable. We can also compare to DK, if you like.

except the fill totally TOTALLY differant battlefield ROLES. you can't compare the two.

The feth I can't. We are talking about durability/pt here.

Martel732 wrote:
The feth I can't. We are talking about durability/pt here.

Ok. You're now missing the point. (Again).

Robbie is a figurehead buffbot. The closest you will get to him in term of battlefield role and type is the Avatar of Khaine and the Swarmlord.

Robbie outshines those two by such a margin it's not even funny.

Maybe the other two are very poorly designed. The command trait tree isn't really terrifying me.

Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Except a riptide is blasting you with a demolisher cannon (basically) every turn from 60 inch range - in the riptid wing hes doing it twice. The riptide is also a stand alone unit that can do almost everything well. Gurly requires support and hes still only doing 1 thing well - and even then is still not as strong as a wraitknight in CC whilst being slower.

So your arguement from this is...

Guilliman is bad because he's not Tau or Eldar.

Am I reading this right?

It's a known issue that Tau and Eldar are underpriced as anything. But Guilliman fills a different role and manages to do it very well in comparison. The only other things that are in a similar boat in terms of what they're supposed to be doing are, for the sake of argument the Avatar and the Swarmlord.

For one, the closest you can get to the buff bubble that Guilliman is would be the Avatar. Robbie's 100 points more, far more survivable (2+/3++, FNP, Eternal Warrior, the ability to get back up compared to a 3+/5++), provides far, far more utility in his bubble (for one his reroll buff is tablewide and factionwide - the Avatar only affects Craftworlders, not Dark Eldar or Harlies) and, oh yeah, the entire Command Trait tree.

That's right folks, Robbie's 12 inch bubble brings - substituting his own Ld for the units own (on top of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning and Fear checks), forcing enemy units to use their lowest LD in the bubble, Move through Cover, 1 inch extra to running and charging, rerolls of To Hit of 1 for shooting and Assault.

The Avatar gives you...uh...Fearless, Furious Charge and Rage.

I'm not even factoring the Swarmlord into this because...let's be honest. For his points cost the Swarmlord is useless. Sure, he's got a bigger bubble. But...that's really all he has. He has none of the utility of Robbie or the Avatar. He buffs a single unit, they buff ALL of them.

Robbie might seem useless if you're running bike or drop spam. But Robbie in a fireline or advancing forward to be mid-range? Oh lordy. Let's not forget Precision Strikes and Shots with his S6 AP 2 rending heavy bolter. Robbie can happily waddle forward each turn and selectively pick out a heavy weapon, special weapon and character from a unit per turn on his own. Considering the amount of Deathstars that rely on a single tough character soaking the wounds of their ridiculous unit this is....rather brutal.

But here's the kicker.

Robbie can be slapped in the same army as Cawl and Celestine. You have 3 very difficult to take down buffers who are no slouches in combat. Sure, you're looking at 750 points of characters. But my god, one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

My argument is - the riptide is a good unit. To call Gurlyman a good unit you have to messure him up to actually good units. Having ultra marines chapter tactics he basically adds nothing to an ultra marine force (these guys are already called reroll marines for a reason). for 25 more points you can get an IK - which is faster - has more firepower- and in reality might not be as tough but is a much more powerful unit in CC. So if you trying to make a good list - you wont be including gurlyman - you will be including an IK.

Not really. I have no intention of ever using this model, as he's not a BA.

CSM got magnus: a source of D shots that is basically immortal. But I was ALREADY dealing with D shots I can't really kill.

Orks could stand to have quite a few upgrades.

Robbie isn't terrible, he's just not as good as what's already out there in terms of being abusive.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Compare him to a unit of THSS terms. for 350 you can get 9 of them. Thats 9 2+/3++ wounds that move 6 inches. They produce 27 str 8 ap2 attacks on the charge compared to 7 from gurly str 10 ap 1. They can even deep strike to ensure they charge the turn after they arrive - Gurly cant...NOPE people don't take them - because they are terrible units.


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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The feth I can't. We are talking about durability/pt here.

Ok. You're now missing the point. (Again).

Robbie is a figurehead buffbot. The closest you will get to him in term of battlefield role and type is the Avatar of Khaine and the Swarmlord.

Robbie outshines those two by such a margin it's not even funny.

If he gave rage and furious charge to all marines in 12" bubble he would be amazing. He gives reroll 1's to units that already reroll 1's. On turn 3 he might actaully start to buff things...unless the ultra marines brough any kind of formation which gives them even more better rerolls...He's not terrible for an IG gunline - I conceed that much.

They don't buff their units, have no ranged weapons and strike at I1. Furthermore, Roboute can spin to win to get as many attacks as he needs, he might get bogged by single models with good saves, but that's about it.

Only bad thing about him is his movement speed, his 350 points is a bargain for anything else.

Which is easily rectified by a librarian/librarius conclave.

And if you're running UM might as well take one of the best psykers in the game, tigurius

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Not at all. The major issue with Guilliman is that when you compare it to other things SM armies have at their disposal, he's just ok. Space Marines already have an enormous array of excellent units, and Guilliman doesn't stack up that well against things that SM can already do.

He makes way more sense leading a Guard army or something, where he can tank against opponents who would normally be assaulting them. Which is fine by me, honestly.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Not at all. The major issue with Guilliman is that when you compare it to other things SM armies have at their disposal, he's just ok. Space Marines already have an enormous array of excellent units, and Guilliman doesn't stack up that well against things that SM can already do.

He makes way more sense leading a Guard army or something, where he can tank against opponents who would normally be assaulting them. Which is fine by me, honestly.

But here's the rub.

He can do just that. His rules are written in such a way that any Imperial army can take him as a LoW slot. So his value isn't just being measured against his inclusion in a SM army - he can be put in any Imperial army and as such that buff bubble of his applies to far more than just Marines.

I play SMs and I think Gulliman's a pretty solid unit. the new "decurion" IMHO is better then the gladius IF you're not running a Battle company. as you trade the free rhinos for OS on everything.

he's a tough buff bot for SM that will tank and probably beat back stuff that enters melee. But him being an MC makes him kinda reasonable. Not too op but definetely on the more powerfull side of the spectrum.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

But here's the rub.

He can do just that. His rules are written in such a way that any Imperial army can take him as a LoW slot. So his value isn't just being measured against his inclusion in a SM army - he can be put in any Imperial army and as such that buff bubble of his applies to far more than just Marines.

I don't see the problem?

You seemed to take issues with SM players saying he's not that good. I'm just saying why he's not that good from an SM players perspective. He doesn't synergize well with them unless you're doing something very specific.

I don't have a problem that IG can take him. If' he's great for IG, I don't really have a problem with that.

I still think that in a general sense, a Knight is a better investment for the points, but it probably depends on what you're trying to do with your army.

Edit:
I'll also mention that most of the other units that are in the same realm of points or toughness, often come in multiples. 2 Wraithknights, 2 Knights. It's a good day when your opponent only has one Riptide.

Actually, if I understand his rules, you can only run him with Ultramarines/vanilla SM's, and other Imperial armies only gain access to him through the formation.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Actually, if I understand his rules, you can only run him with Ultramarines/vanilla SM's, and other Imperial armies only gain access to him through the formation.

you understand wrong, his rules state he's a LOW choice for ALL factions. now the obvious question is, can I take him as a LOW choice in say.. an imperial fists CAD given he has chapter tactics Ultramarines