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Can you kill a FNP riptide? If the answer is yes then you can kill Gman. The difference is the Riptide is 100+ points less and WAY more dangerous from turn 1.

Personally, he is over priced as he is. You need to spend even more points on either a super heavy transport or a librarius conclave to sort his mobility issue and in some formats neither resolves the issue well.

Without MC status he would be great!

I'd love to have a tyranid MC with Guilliman's rules

The main argument against him seems to be "He very slow thus is not very good".

I know that every unit that comes out that doesn't move like an eldar jetbike or gargantuan creature is considered crap by comparison and I do see that point as fast movement is very valuable in this game but if you play with objectives and other faster elements units that move at the normal 6" can still prove useful especially if they are as deadly as RG. Also placing all of your objective as close together in one area of the table helps alot here as well.

And talking about his speed he's not as slow as people seem to think:

Turn 1 - don't fire the bolter, run! With his fleet, move through cover and extra 1" run you'll get an average of 11" with him leaving you just shy of the table centre.

Turn 2 - Charge something! Again with fleet, move through cover and an extra 1" charge you have an average threat range of 15-16" which covers a massive area of the board. If the opponent declines to move that close great, you now have some control of where he does and doesn't go, use it and move RG 11" towards them.

15" charge range might not be quite thunderwolf range but it's not bad and certainly not "one of the slowest units in the game".

The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

Boohoo, muh ultra powerful super unit has a single aspect that is not massively broken.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

Boohoo, muh ultra powerful super unit has a single aspect that is not massively broken.

He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

I'm actually curious, did you just ram everything into him or?

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

Boohoo, muh ultra powerful super unit has a single aspect that is not massively broken.

He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

God tier stats, D close combat attacks, S6 AP2 Rending Heavy Bolter, FNp, EW, insane abilities on his sword, knows all of the Command Warlord Traits, as someone else pointed out is averaging 11" move (including running) on turn one giving him a threat range of 23" on turn one if he chooses to charge (12" deploy + 6" move + 2D6" charge, has a 2+/3++ plus FNP, is an MC......
All that and more for 350 points. I wish my Guard had something that was as terrible as Girlyman.

So he's melee riptide. Tau can have an army of shooting riptides.

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

He is way more durable than a Riptide... And even without D his attacs are still s10 ap1 amourbane, so he has quite good chances against both knights and wraithknights in combat.
And wraithknights are op so what does that say about him?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

I small something, and it isn't fresh flowers.

What list and what exactly did you do? Assuming you did that.

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

He is way more durable than a Riptide... And even without D his attacs are still s10 ap1 amourbane, so he has quite good chances against both knights and wraithknights in combat.
And wraithknights are op so what does that say about him?

How is he more durable thsn a stimtide?

S10 ap 1 doesn't mean much to a sword/board knight that swings str d every attack. Plus he can get stomped.

He's a CC beast that can't get in CC without huge support. His 6 warlord traits...guess what no one ever mentions? Gladius + ultra marines chapter tactics already gives you reroll 1's to hits for 2 turns (and lots of twin linked too) so it's really useless. Gladius gives you even more reroll 1's...do you notice a trend?

This would be comparable to giving gardsmen an additional lasgun - knowing they can only shoot 1 las gun.

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

He is way more durable than a Riptide... And even without D his attacs are still s10 ap1 amourbane, so he has quite good chances against both knights and wraithknights in combat.
And wraithknights are op so what does that say about him?

How is he more durable thsn a stimtide?

S10 ap 1 doesn't mean much to a sword/board knight that swings str d every attack. Plus he can get stomped.

He has more wounds, always a 3++, EW, and can get up after being killed. So yes he appears a little bit more durable.
Against a wraithknight he hits first, hits on 3s, so If he gets the charge he has 7 attacs at ini 6, and gets rerolles on most things so statistically he should win most fights. And even in the rarer cases in which he dies he can just get back up on a 4+...

The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

 curran12 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

I small something, and it isn't fresh flowers.

What list and what exactly did you do? Assuming you did that.

Well, see the attached picture, for you 'pics or didn't happen folks'. Like I said, it was a goff killmob, more or less base. Nobz had 6x big choppas, one pk, waagh banner, the named warboss (forget the name), kans had grotzookas, dreads had extra power klaw and skorchas, 2 boyz had nobz with Pk, one with a big choppa.

The match was just for curiosity's sake. I pretty much set up, let him place gulliman wherever he wanted and gave him first turn to be 'fair'.

First turn, he charged the nobz, killed 6. Warboss and PK nob survived, did like 4 hits, bounced off invlun. Sweeping advanced.

My turn, charged with 2x groups of 20 boyz and gorkanaut. Had to challenge with big choppa nob. Whirlwinded, killed nob and like 10 boyz, stunned the gorkanaut. Didn't hit with either the gorknauat or the remaining PK nob (hits on 5s). Boyz hit on 5, wound on 6s, he has a 2+ save and FNP. That's literally the best unbuffed protection in the game. Made my mob rules.

his turn 2 , whirlwinded again, killed the PK nob and blew up the gorkanaut. explosion killed about half of the remaining boyz. They did no damage. failed mob rules and were sweeping advanced.

My turn 2, charged with both deff dreads and killa kans. If I recall, I think he blew up both deff dreads and 2 of the kans before they could swing.

his turn 3, killed remaining killa kan.

My turn 3, charged with last unit of boyz. Did one wound in shooting, oddly. PK nob had to challenge, was instakilled, along with 8 or so boyz. No damage to him. Sweeping advanced.

And don't get me wrong. I told everyone there I was going to get my ass kicked, so it didn't come as a surprise to me.

The problem is that I cannot kill 2+ FNP MCs at range. I can't shoot riptides to death, for example. I have to assault them.

gulliman is like a riptide, which I can't shoot to death, that also walks through 1500 points of an melee army. That's a problem.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

I didn't say underpowered. He's obviously better than anything in my codex, but then again, he's an MC, so duh.

I just love the selective outrage, even though MCs have been owning 7th edition all along. There's now one additional Imperial MC. The end is NEAR!

So you literally gave Guilliman -EXACTLY- the best case scenario to win by giving him the choice of deployment, not shooting him and feeding him one or two units at a time? And you're using the fact that by playing incredibly badly (in such a way that it is clearly weighted in RG's favor) that this is somehow proof of him being broken?

"The problem is that I cannot kill 2+ FNP MCs at range. I can't shoot riptides to death, for example. I have to assault them. "

You're ahead of me then, because I can't do it either way.

 curran12 wrote:
So you literally gave Guilliman -EXACTLY- the best case scenario to win by giving him the choice of deployment, not shooting him and feeding him one or two units at a time? And you're using the fact that by playing incredibly badly (in such a way that it is clearly weighted in RG's favor) that this is somehow proof of him being broken?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'feeding'. I charged him with as much as I could fit on his base, as often as I could. I shot him as much as I could. If I had given myself first turn, nothing would have been different, other than another pathetic round of shooting.

If I had set up like a normal game, the only difference is he would walk toward me, me toward him. Just saved time.

I mean, does 350 points walking through 1500 not sound broken to you?

And this wasn't a set-myself-up-to-fail list. I had tabled white scars and genestealers with the same list earlier in the day. It was just what I had out and I thought I'd see if gulliman was as broken as I feared.

It's not the best list in the world, I'll freely admit. And far from ideal from tackling gulliman. But still, it illustrates that as orks, I am going to seriously struggle with just gulliman, much less him with an army at his back.

First off, it's 1500 pts of Orks. That's like talking about 1500 pts of DE or BA.

Secondly, this is the exact crap I've been dealing with for quite some time now against Tau using BA. Sure, he might be undercosted. Is he Riptide undercosted? I doubt it. Does he get to shoot you off the table before you do ANYTHING? No.

If we look at list that aren't BA or Orks, solutions appear. Feed him some wraiths and lol all the way to the bank. Stomps, D weapons, all the fun 7th ed stuff we all know and love.

Yea, orks will just shoot models off the board lol. And why feed him units one at a time when he attacks first? You charge a single squad of orks at him, and he has the potential to kill them all before they even respond. Throwing the maximum amount of orks at him to have some potentially survive would be the only way.

Taking the fact that orks are terrible out of the equation, why should any model be able to kill a standard army size on his own? Riptides could not do what guilliman did there.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

Meanwhile Chaos, Tyranid, Ork, AM and Dark Eldar players are looking at this monstrosity and scratching their heads as to what exactly they can do. 6+ S10 AP1 attacks deletes any tarpit you can throw at it, a 2+/3++ pretty much ignores weight of fire and the fact he can get back up once brought down basically means the 2-3 turns of focused fire it takes for these armies to down him goes to waste.

People keep trying to compare him to things like the Swarmlord and Foot Daemon Princes....

What you don't realise is that pointswise he's comparable to them (Swarmlord and some Guard, PA ML3 Prince with Artefact) but statwise he is far, far superior...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

Meanwhile Chaos, Tyranid, Ork, AM and Dark Eldar players are looking at this monstrosity and scratching their heads as to what exactly they can do. 6+ S10 AP1 attacks deletes any tarpit you can throw at it, a 2+/3++ pretty much ignores weight of fire and the fact he can get back up once brought down basically means the 2-3 turns of focused fire it takes for these armies to down him goes to waste.

People keep trying to compare him to things like the Swarmlord and Foot Daemon Princes....

What you don't realise is that pointswise he's comparable to them (Swarmlord and some Guard, PA ML3 Prince with Artefact) but statwise he is far, far superior...

Exactly my point. I can throw my entire 1.5K armies worth of shooting at him for three/four turns and I might still not be able to bring him down. At 2K I might just be able to do it in three turns with my Macro Cannon. And THEN, after having spent half/over half the game bringing him down I then have a 50/50 chance of having to do it all over again.
And this is assuming the impossible situation that I do not lose any of my units over the course of the entire game, which I will. So it might take me the entire game to bring him down the first time, assuming that I shoot nothing else.

I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Do we yet know if RG size is a result of his fancy new armor?

I wonder if future primarchs will be MC's or if this is a direct result of the armor.

The OG rumors I thought had RG in some sort of dreadknight armor I thought. Can see how that easily could have been a misconception bases on the medical armor.

I think if you put him in the middle of an IG gun line designed for maximum long range fire, then he will be quite powerful. His command abilities will make the IG shine and he becomes the perfect counter attack unit when the enemy hits your lines.