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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Not at all. The major issue with Guilliman is that when you compare it to other things SM armies have at their disposal, he's just ok. Space Marines already have an enormous array of excellent units, and Guilliman doesn't stack up that well against things that SM can already do.

He makes way more sense leading a Guard army or something, where he can tank against opponents who would normally be assaulting them. Which is fine by me, honestly.

But here's the rub.

He can do just that. His rules are written in such a way that any Imperial army can take him as a LoW slot. So his value isn't just being measured against his inclusion in a SM army - he can be put in any Imperial army and as such that buff bubble of his applies to far more than just Marines.

You wanna abuse him in any LoW slot? Take him in an Imperial Knight Household Detachment and turn him into a Super-Heavy Walker thanks to the Lord Baron bonus. Now you've got a Rowboat that's too good.

Breaking 40k aside, I think he's about fairly costed for what he brings. Just like Magnus.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

I didn't say underpowered. He's obviously better than anything in my codex, but then again, he's an MC, so duh.

I just love the selective outrage, even though MCs have been owning 7th edition all along. There's now one additional Imperial MC. The end is NEAR!

Gotta agree with martel, he is awesome once he sees combat, but until then he is kite-able and ignorable. MSU laughs at him.

Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

Martel732 wrote:
Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

He doesnt need to move masssively and he can already do 11" average on a run, 12.5" on a charge. Sheesh Martel, the guy is literally a massively buffed 30K primarch for less than half the points cost, what more do you want?

Also keep in mind the whole idea of area control. In most objective based games, all you need to do is march Gully onto whatever he's holding, and you've pretty much denied your opponent the objective. Anything that gets Objective Secured is going to get melted by him the moment they step into range. And if you try to just kill him, it's probably going to take a considerable effort from an entire army to move him off of whatever he's guarding.

Someone mentioned DE having issues with Gman - how wrong. Poison works just fine as does dark light.

Even with 3++ and fnp, an MSU DE army can kill him.

Its around 48 lance shots to get through the 3++/fnp 6 wounds and around 160 poison shots for the same.

My DE army would do it in just over 2 rounds of fire with lances but I can easily put 160 poison shots down range turn 1.

And since he cant ride transports and join units, he is easily targetable - and likely one of the few actual targets the venoms will have given all the metal boxes marines like to hide in

 Fafnir wrote:
Also keep in mind the whole idea of area control. In most objective based games, all you need to do is march Gully onto whatever he's holding, and you've pretty much denied your opponent the objective. Anything that gets Objective Secured is going to get melted by him the moment they step into range. And if you try to just kill him, it's probably going to take a considerable effort from an entire army to move him off of whatever he's guarding.

thats another thing worth noting, taken as part of the Victrix detachment, Gulliman has OS. not nesscarily HUGE but a notable thing

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

He doesnt need to move masssively and he can already do 11" average on a run, 12.5" on a charge. Sheesh Martel, the guy is literally a massively buffed 30K primarch for less than half the points cost, what more do you want?

15" is greater than any of those numbers. Plus you have to pay for his enterage more than likely. I'm just not convinced this guy is as abusive as the MCs/GMCs currently in the game. I fear magnus way more than this guy.

 Massaen wrote:
Someone mentioned DE having issues with Gman - how wrong. Poison works just fine as does dark light.

Even with 3++ and fnp, an MSU DE army can kill him.

Its around 48 lance shots to get through the 3++/fnp 6 wounds and around 160 poison shots for the same.

My DE army would do it in just over 2 rounds of fire with lances but I can easily put 160 poison shots down range turn 1.

And since he cant ride transports and join units, he is easily targetable - and likely one of the few actual targets the venoms will have given all the metal boxes marines like to hide in

Ok.

So your DE army pours 2 rounds of firepower into Guilliman.

What do you do about the rest of the Imperial army since you've chosen to ignore them for him? And what do you do when he rolls that 4+ and gets back on to his feet?

Even better, if he's in a Victrix Strike Force, what do you do about the Victrix Guard formation that're also giving him LOS just for standing near them?

I mean, hell, you're assuming you're getting this all off, rolling the right amount of dice, everything is exactly within range and you're taking no casualties in those 2 turns. You're assuming he doesn't deploy in such a way that LoS is blocked for a chunk of your army.

Sorry, but I don't really find your 2 turns approach to be satisfactory in dealing with him.

2 turns focusing solely on him? Assuming he doesn't get lucky with a Fleet Run and assault you Turn 2 and just start deleting your army.

And conveniently forgetting he's providing that bonus inch of assault to the Vanguard Vets accompanying him as well.

2 turns of perfect numbers to deal with something at the cost of dealing with anything else is a sign that you can't really deal with it.


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Martel732 wrote:


15" is greater than any of those numbers. Plus you have to pay for his enterage more than likely. I'm just not convinced this guy is as abusive as the MCs/GMCs currently in the game. I fear magnus way more than this guy.

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

I'll name one for Magnus.

Culexus Assassin. Awfully hard to be a psychic powerhouse when you're channelling warp charge on 6s and your buffs don't stick to you. Sure, you can fly around and be a scary assault monster. But if you're doing that you're basically paying 750 points for something less effective at doing just that than the Bloodthirster that costs half the points

140 pts of Wraiths are probably pretty damn close. But if the CSM kill that assassin, which isn't the craziest thing ever, Magnus is back in business. Hell, can't Magnus just move away from the assassin?

@Darkstarsable - I said 160 poison shots - which I can deliver in a single turn from just my venoms at 1850.

The lance salvos are not practical which I said.

I also said the venoms had very little to do in the first turn while my lances emptied metal boxes that marines bring along oh so often.

If you do run the formation that allows LoS from him - even better as marines on foot die oh so quickly to poison from venoms.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Only bad thing about him is his movement speed, his 350 points is a bargain for anything else.

Which is easily rectified by a librarian/librarius conclave.

And if you're running UM might as well take one of the best psykers in the game, tigurius

Why one of the best, what's better than TIgurius ?


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BrianDavion wrote:
I play SMs and I think Gulliman's a pretty solid unit. the new "decurion" IMHO is better then the gladius IF you're not running a Battle company. as you trade the free rhinos for OS on everything.

They're not Rhinos unless you're shooting yourself in the foot, iirc.


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 Massaen wrote:
Someone mentioned DE having issues with Gman - how wrong. Poison works just fine as does dark light.

Even with 3++ and fnp, an MSU DE army can kill him.

Its around 48 lance shots to get through the 3++/fnp 6 wounds and around 160 poison shots for the same.

My DE army would do it in just over 2 rounds of fire with lances but I can easily put 160 poison shots down range turn 1.

And since he cant ride transports and join units, he is easily targetable - and likely one of the few actual targets the venoms will have given all the metal boxes marines like to hide in

Yes, but your army sucks against everything else.
People saying DE would have a hard time were probably thinking about the less sucky Carnival build.

For the "Guilliman is a Riptide" Argument
Sure both have a 2+/3++ (Nova Charge Riptide)
Sure both are T6
Sure both have FNP (Stim Injector)

But do you know what the Riptide lacks?
ETERNAL
WARRIOR
If lucky, a Force Sword can 1 shot a Riptide
Can a Force Sword 1 Shot Gulliman? NO
Can the Imperial Space Marines "Disintergration Gun" 1 Shot Gulliman? NO

Instant Death is the Bane of MCs, but Because Gulliman has EW, is makes him 10x Tougher

Good luck getting a force sword into combat with a Riptide.

But do you know what the Riptide lacks?
ETERNAL
WARRIOR
If lucky, a Force Sword can 1 shot a Riptide
Can a Force Sword 1 Shot Gulliman? NO
Can the Imperial Space Marines "Disintergration Gun" 1 Shot Gulliman? NO

Why is a Force Sword getting near a Jet Pack Tau MC? Jump Shoot Jump is going to prevent that in most cases... Same with the 18" Disintegration gun.

If instant death were ever a thing that occurred with Riptides on a remotely common basis, I wouldn't mind them as much. Ranged ID basically doesn't exist, and melee? Good luck.

 Massaen wrote:
@Darkstarsable - I said 160 poison shots - which I can deliver in a single turn from just my venoms at 1850.

The lance salvos are not practical which I said.

I also said the venoms had very little to do in the first turn while my lances emptied metal boxes that marines bring along oh so often.

If you do run the formation that allows LoS from him - even better as marines on foot die oh so quickly to poison from venoms.

you actually didn't.

You gave me the statistics for Lances and Poison.

Now you are saying, that you are going to focus fire on transports while your venoms, with their very little to do focus fire on Guilliman. You still do not acknowledge that Line of Sight blocking cover exists, that the formation that grants LoS exists and in an ideal world you might have everything in range...but really, you won't. So you are still spending at least 2 turns shooting at Guilliman, largely because your lances have a pathetically low range and you want to find transports? K. Shoot the drop pods. Wait. You can't.

So you blow your load Turn 1 on Guilliman. Don't kill him - by your own phrasing it will take you 2 turns.

Turn 1 Imperial drop pods land, take out chunks of venoms and lance units. If you were silly enough to move forward so all your venoms could get LoS or take pot shots at Robbie...well, any surviving Vanguard and Robbie are going to jump on them because you were foolish enough to cross the distance for him.

So what we've just witnessed in at least 2-3 venoms getting ripped to shreds in assault, easily another 2-3 more being shot up by drop podding units and your other support units getting the anti-infantry attention.

You've described to us that your best way of dealing with Guilliman is with a terrible army that every other component of a standard Marine army will rip to tiny shreds and the only way you are going to be able to meet your 2 turn deadline is by crossing the distance to ensure you have LoS and range. Which will also kill you because Robbie is deceptively fast especially if you do half the work for him.


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Martel732 wrote:
If instant death were ever a thing that occurred with Riptides on a remotely common basis, I wouldn't mind them as much. Ranged ID basically doesn't exist, and melee? Good luck.

If ranged ID were to exist in any measure it would be the Deathknell of Tyranids unless they went back to 4th ed. EW Synapse.

Just to point out, Papa smurf allows the doctrines to be stacked because it says you can use them each once per game as well as any others you may be able to use, so if your running ultras you can use each ultra doctrine twice. If you're not, you get to use em once each

He doesn't seem to fit either tactically or thematically in a Raven Guard/Raptors army, so.....meh. I guess the ultramarine players will be happy.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

Shooting DE lists with tons of lances or poisoned shots won't win a single competitive game, so they're not an option.

DE can be mid tiers thanks to grotesques, reavers, talos, all assaulting units.

And any list that is assault oriented is almost crippled with guilliman.

Of course he's overpowered, he's a SM new release, he has to be overpowered by definition.

Actually best way to deal with him seems to play objectives and make him assault units that he doesn't want to assault, tarpit him if you can. Actually he always hit on 3s thanks to stupid rules that make WS9 as good as WS5 so 1/3 of his attacks would always be misses. Even with his special attack he won't cause more than 10-12 wounds, a blob of 20-30 infantries can tarpit him for a turn and considering that he's on foot it can be enough.

Unless you have tons of D weapons but 1-2 armies have that, and you probably want those precious shots not to be wasted on a 3+ invuln, 6 wounds dude that can resurrect and absorb too much firepower.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

If a 140 point model is forcing a 750 point model to stay away from it....

That's doin a damn good job in my opinion

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

If a 140 point model is forcing a 750 point model to stay away from it....

That's doin a damn good job in my opinion

That would be true if Magnus was 750 , but "shutting down" it ain't.

Either way I'll stand by my answer to the challenge. A squad of 5 Wraithguard for 160 has better than a 50/50 chance of killing him in a single volley. Guilliman might still get back up, but then he's just down to a 1-3 wounds, and that's a lot easier to handle. Once Magnus is flying, he's a lot harder to do something about.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

Thats a lot of ifs in order to be effectiv and as soon as not being able to be one-shoted by D weapons becomes the new standard in order to be good, then nearly nothing is good.
On a more serious note that one squad will get 0,555 6s so in order to bring him down you will need at least two squads, so a minimum of 320 points and seeing as they can't walk or else are dead before they arrive they will need x100 points of transports and with that firepower you can kill titans. And even if everything goes completly right and they shoot him down, all of that will be made useless on the roll of a 4+ as he gets back up and murders one of the units.

 Insectum7 wrote:

That would be true if Magnus was 750 , but "shutting down" it ain't.

650. Still bloody good for a 140 point unit that can now be freely included in a super detachment alongside returning SM, AM or Inquisition units.

I just don't see a foot assassin as a realistic counter to an fmc.

Jorim wrote:

Thats a lot of ifs in order to be effectiv and as soon as not being able to be one-shoted by D weapons becomes the new standard in order to be good, then nearly nothing is good.
On a more serious note that one squad will get 0,555 6s so in order to bring him down you will need at least two squads, so a minimum of 320 points and seeing as they can't walk or else are dead before they arrive they will need x100 points of transports and with that firepower you can kill titans. And even if everything goes completly right and they shoot him down, all of that will be made useless on the roll of a 4+ as he gets back up and murders one of the units.

It wasn't my intention to say whether Guilliman was good or not. He's clearly a good unit. (although I probably wouldn't take him in a Space Marine list, as he eats up valuable points in getting to Company Support)

I was just answering the "140 point challenge". Wraithguard happen to be some of the best single-model-killers in the game, but we all knew that.

Guilliman is slow. He can't mount a transport. You can use psykers to throw him around the table, which is what I do for elements of my Chaos army. But my Chaos army also hides it's champions in huge units of guys, which Guilliman also can't do because he's an MC. This makes him more vulnerable to D than lots of other characters. I'm not saying he's bad, not at all. But I'd say it's a fairly big shortcoming in a competitive scene where Wraithknights are more common. I think his value depends more on context than other units. A Similarly costed Knight, for example, is arguably more well rounded, and probably a better buy in most cases.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

That would be true if Magnus was 750 , but "shutting down" it ain't.

650. Still bloody good for a 140 point unit that can now be freely included in a super detachment alongside returning SM, AM or Inquisition units.

Sorta good. It's a 140 point unit that Magnus can just fly away from/avoid. It's also a 140 point unit that's a bit lackluster if the opponent doesn't have psykers.

I don't know the Culexus rules off the top of my head, but I'd guess that Magnus could just charge him and murder him. Besides being a psyker, Magnus is also a huge monster.

Never mind - ignore

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

He doesnt need to move masssively and he can already do 11" average on a run, 12.5" on a charge. Sheesh Martel, the guy is literally a massively buffed 30K primarch for less than half the points cost, what more do you want?

15" is greater than any of those numbers. Plus you have to pay for his enterage more than likely. I'm just not convinced this guy is as abusive as the MCs/GMCs currently in the game. I fear magnus way more than this guy.

Magnus 650 points, you SHOULD fear him more. there is a 300 point differance between them. put into prespective, comparing them is like comparing a dreadnought to an Imperial Knight.

It's interesting to see people talking past each other in this thread.

It's obvious to me that Roboute is a good model and is probably more powerful than is balanced, mostly due to his silly defensive stats. It's equally obvious that there are many more powerful models in the game, because 40K is filled with poorly-designed mistakes.

Wraithknights, Riptides, deathstars, etc., etc. - they're all badly-designed units that are overpowered. Roboute is also overpowered, but not to the degree that those other offenders are. Ideally 40K wouldn't have any of them in their current form and they'd all be redesigned or at least given more appropriate points values.

Just because Roboute isn't the most obnoxious model in the game doesn't mean he isn't obnoxious. The existence of other terrible fun destroyers doesn't mean it's okay to add another fun destroyer to the mix. But because he isn't the most obnoxious model means that there are bigger fish to fry on the game balance front before we get to him.