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Voss wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
I wish they'd make their mind up on the cost of GSC Genestealers, 18, 10, 15.....

I do too. Not because both of the first two costs were obviously wrong at a glance (though they were), but because it speaks volumes about their approach. Its lol!random changes to 'fix' things.

If they made a case for why ambush and transport use was worth 6, -2 or 3 points per model, it would be a lot more convincing. The final result is probably pretty close to right, but it feels like they just settled on 15 because it's half the difference between the original cost and the tyranid version.

GW changes the cost to one unit in the entire faction = GW costs things randomly. The hyperbole of internet negativity strikes again!

I dunno if its new, but they specify re-roll abilities on 2d6 rolls require both die to be rerolled (like reroll Charges on 2d6).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
GW changes the cost to one unit in the entire faction = GW costs things randomly. The hyperbole of internet negativity strikes again!

In fairness, I do wonder when we see a unit like the razorwing flock literally double in price. Was it a typo, kinda like the inquisition acolyte wounds were? Did someone think they were two wound models when pricing, and only recently was this mix up realized? Did they just somehow realize the unit cost literally half what it should cost, and if so why weren't any other of the really tough for their points chaff units adjusted?

Do Razorbacks and Rhino Primaris tanks still detonate on a 1?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
I just had a look and they haven't clarified how many points the blue horror crew wargear upgrade for the Burning Chariots cost. It's so annoying that they have missed this again.

Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability

Yes, I read that. Re-read what I said.

If I take a Burning Chariot with a blue horror crew wargear upgrade, how many points do I pay in matched play?

It's a shame they didn't clarify that question.

JakeSiren wrote:
If I take a Burning Chariot with a blue horror crew wargear upgrade, how many points do I pay in matched play?

None, because there isnt anything to suggest you need to pay for them. They arent an independant unit, they cant jump off the chariot, all they do is give you Irritating Chant.

Fictional wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
If I take a Burning Chariot with a blue horror crew wargear upgrade, how many points do I pay in matched play?

None, because there isnt anything to suggest you need to pay for them. They arent an independant unit, they cant jump off the chariot, all they do is give you Irritating Chant.

Wrong, there is nothing indicating what points you should pay for them which is different than them being free. For examples of other Wargear that you don't pay points for include blight grenades, frag grenades, chain swords, bolt pistol, bolt gun, demolisher cannon, etc. Yet they all still have entries in the points section. So a clear omission in the wargear entry doesn't mean you should pay 0 points for it. I am not aware of any other wargear options that are listed on a data sheet but don't have an associated points cost for them.

People also have an equally reasonable argument to say that you should pay 15 points for the blue horrors brought with the chariot as that is what 3 blue horror models cost. But the issue with this argument is that 3 x blue horror models is not the same as the 3 x blue horror war gear upgrade.

If you are bothered by that, why don't you ask why there is no cost for sergeants? Or for neurothropes?

All upgrades of the model that are not reflected on the wargear, are free.

You are not adding models or adding wargear, so why would you pay for them?

They're free.

Spoletta wrote:
If you are bothered by that, why don't you ask why there is no cost for sergeants? Or for neurothropes?

All upgrades of the model that are not reflected on the wargear, are free.

You are not adding models or adding wargear, so why would you pay for them?

Actually, you are adding wargear for the chariots. Under the wargear section it says "This model may be accompanied by three Blue Horrors". So why wouldn't you pay for them? If I were to purchase 3 Blue Horrors in a Horror Squad I would pay 15 points.
As for sergeants, the points section says what you pay per model in the unit, so it never bothered me (ie: a sergeant costs the same as a regular guy, just has more war gear options)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They're free.

Where does it say that the horror crew is free? I'm happy to have missed something as I have 9 burning chariots, and a -1 to psy would be useful!

Again, you are just using a different profile, you are not adding anything.

Edit: No ok, if it is listed in the wargear section then the question is legit. All other models have that option in the description.

SilverAlien wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
GW changes the cost to one unit in the entire faction = GW costs things randomly. The hyperbole of internet negativity strikes again!

In fairness, I do wonder when we see a unit like the razorwing flock literally double in price. Was it a typo, kinda like the inquisition acolyte wounds were? Did someone think they were two wound models when pricing, and only recently was this mix up realized? Did they just somehow realize the unit cost literally half what it should cost, and if so why weren't any other of the really tough for their points chaff units adjusted?

They said this was in response to the community and their feedback. The community made it clear that flyers and razorwing flocks were a problem.

SilverAlien wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
GW changes the cost to one unit in the entire faction = GW costs things randomly. The hyperbole of internet negativity strikes again!

In fairness, I do wonder when we see a unit like the razorwing flock literally double in price. Was it a typo, kinda like the inquisition acolyte wounds were? Did someone think they were two wound models when pricing, and only recently was this mix up realized? Did they just somehow realize the unit cost literally half what it should cost, and if so why weren't any other of the really tough for their points chaff units adjusted?

In isolation, the concern makes sense. There are specific entries that GW has not handled well. My broader point is that these entries are but a handful among hundreds, which makes passing sweeping judgement on the process as a whole rather silly when based on that handful.

JakeSiren wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
If you are bothered by that, why don't you ask why there is no cost for sergeants? Or for neurothropes?

All upgrades of the model that are not reflected on the wargear, are free.

You are not adding models or adding wargear, so why would you pay for them?

Actually, you are adding wargear for the chariots. Under the wargear section it says "This model may be accompanied by three Blue Horrors". So why wouldn't you pay for them? If I were to purchase 3 Blue Horrors in a Horror Squad I would pay 15 points.
As for sergeants, the points section says what you pay per model in the unit, so it never bothered me (ie: a sergeant costs the same as a regular guy, just has more war gear options)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They're free.

Where does it say that the horror crew is free? I'm happy to have missed something as I have 9 burning chariots, and a -1 to psy would be useful!

The FAQ answer says if you have the dudes you get the ability. If there's been a cost they'd have mentioned it in the same publication.

You don't pay points for the blue horrors on the chariot the same way you don't pay points for exarchs or other squad leaders even though they have a slightly different profile.

You have the option to not take them, but it is simply based on how you model the unit.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
If you are bothered by that, why don't you ask why there is no cost for sergeants? Or for neurothropes?

All upgrades of the model that are not reflected on the wargear, are free.

You are not adding models or adding wargear, so why would you pay for them?

Actually, you are adding wargear for the chariots. Under the wargear section it says "This model may be accompanied by three Blue Horrors". So why wouldn't you pay for them? If I were to purchase 3 Blue Horrors in a Horror Squad I would pay 15 points.
As for sergeants, the points section says what you pay per model in the unit, so it never bothered me (ie: a sergeant costs the same as a regular guy, just has more war gear options)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They're free.

Where does it say that the horror crew is free? I'm happy to have missed something as I have 9 burning chariots, and a -1 to psy would be useful!

The FAQ answer says if you have the dudes you get the ability. If there's been a cost they'd have mentioned it in the same publication.

In the same way that other free war gear options such as chain swords, frag grenades, etc aren't listed in the points section? The FAQ answer says how the blue horror upgrade should be treated (ie: not extra models in the unit). It seems more likely that the points were accidently omitted from the points section of Index: Chaos. As it is, the cost is undefined, which makes it and invalid selection when using points.
For reference the only cost associated with "Blue Horrors" is 5 points each for models in a horror squad. But they are clearly not war gear.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You don't pay points for the blue horrors on the chariot the same way you don't pay points for exarchs or other squad leaders even though they have a slightly different profile.

You have the option to not take them, but it is simply based on how you model the unit.

Except squad leaders are not wargear upgrades, and you still pay for them - they have the same cost as any other model in the unit. Unless you are suggesting that adding the 3 blue horrors should cost 98 points each?


@Johnny and Lythrandire
Could either of you point me to any other war gear upgrade which doesn't have an associated points cost? I haven't found one, and IMO it is a clear omission on GW's behalf. Until they specify a points cost you can't appropriately cost your Chariots with the upgrade for point play.

There is precedent for 'free' upgrades from Age of Sigmar, where literally all upgrades are free.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
There is precedent for 'free' upgrades from Age of Sigmar, where literally all upgrades are free.

And plenty of counter examples in the 40k indices.

I just mean to say its a possibility.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
You don't pay points for the blue horrors on the chariot the same way you don't pay points for exarchs or other squad leaders even though they have a slightly different profile.

You have the option to not take them, but it is simply based on how you model the unit.

You keep saying that, but there are rules saying that unit champions cost the same points as a standard model in the unit.

The Blue Horrors on a chariot are listed as wargear upgrade. All other wargear upgrades have a points cost associated with them, so the fact that this doesn't raises a big red flag. Plus, if they're free, why not just make them a standard part of the unit (why would anyone *not* take them if they're free).

So this definitely needs a FAQ, for sure.

Q: (paraphrased) "What points do I pay for the crew?"
A: (paraphrased) "You don't pay points, you just get the ability if you have the models."

That's my interpretation. If you think I'm wrong, write to Games Workshop instead of demanding I prove my point and being all internet about it. No point in a fight! Enough people write in they may clarify their clarification. And if I'm wrong when they do I don't care, but that's how it currently reads, in absence of points thatvthey could have put in the same paragraph if they'd intended a cost.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Q: (paraphrased) "What points do I pay for the crew?"
A: (paraphrased) "You don't pay points, you just get the ability if you have the models."

That's my interpretation. If you think I'm wrong, write to Games Workshop instead of demanding I prove my point and being all internet about it. No point in a fight! Enough people write in they may clarify their clarification. And if I'm wrong when they do I don't care, but that's how it currently reads, in absence of points thatvthey could have put in the same paragraph if they'd intended a cost.

No it does not. The question and answer have absolutely nothing to do with points. It is a question about whether taking the 3 horrors are separate models which then form a mixed unit with the chariot. And they answer that question with (paraphrasing) no, they are not separate models that form a mixed unit.

There is absolutely no mention of points in either the question or the answer. So yes, they answered one big question about the upgrade, but not the one regarding points.

And again, this remains the ONLY wargear upgrade to my knowledge that doesn't have a listed points value (even one of '0'). Whether it is '0' points or not, it needs to have a listing to say the point value is '0', as that's the way every single other wargear upgrade works in the entire game.

 yakface wrote:
And again, this remains the ONLY wargear upgrade to my knowledge that doesn't have a listed points value (even one of '0'). Whether it is '0' points or not, it needs to have a listing to say the point value is '0', as that's the way every single other wargear upgrade works in the entire game.

There are others - Ironclad Assault Launchers, for example.

beast_gts wrote:

 yakface wrote:
And again, this remains the ONLY wargear upgrade to my knowledge that doesn't have a listed points value (even one of '0'). Whether it is '0' points or not, it needs to have a listing to say the point value is '0', as that's the way every single other wargear upgrade works in the entire game.

There are others - Ironclad Assault Launchers, for example.

Out of interest what are the other ones?

Also GW has erratad the Ironclad Assault Launches as 5 points each.

beast_gts wrote:

 yakface wrote:
And again, this remains the ONLY wargear upgrade to my knowledge that doesn't have a listed points value (even one of '0'). Whether it is '0' points or not, it needs to have a listing to say the point value is '0', as that's the way every single other wargear upgrade works in the entire game.

There are others - Ironclad Assault Launchers, for example.

But they are closing those holes:

Index Imperium 1 FAQ wrote:
Page 204 – Space Marine Points Values, Other Wargear
Add the following line:
‘Ironclad assault launchers | 5’

JakeSiren wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 yakface wrote:
And again, this remains the ONLY wargear upgrade to my knowledge that doesn't have a listed points value (even one of '0'). Whether it is '0' points or not, it needs to have a listing to say the point value is '0', as that's the way every single other wargear upgrade works in the entire game.

There are others - Ironclad Assault Launchers, for example.

Out of interest what are the other ones?

Also GW has erratad the Ironclad Assault Launches as 5 points each.

I'm trying to remember - we were discussing them at our club on Saturday (then the FAQ came out Sunday :-) ). I think there's an Ork or Tau one...

The Haemonculus Crucible of Malediction is a free wargear option.

 yakface wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Q: (paraphrased) "What points do I pay for the crew?"
A: (paraphrased) "You don't pay points, you just get the ability if you have the models."

That's my interpretation. If you think I'm wrong, write to Games Workshop instead of demanding I prove my point and being all internet about it. No point in a fight! Enough people write in they may clarify their clarification. And if I'm wrong when they do I don't care, but that's how it currently reads, in absence of points thatvthey could have put in the same paragraph if they'd intended a cost.

No it does not. The question and answer have absolutely nothing to do with points. It is a question about whether taking the 3 horrors are separate models which then form a mixed unit with the chariot. And they answer that question with (paraphrasing) no, they are not separate models that form a mixed unit.

There is absolutely no mention of points in either the question or the answer. So yes, they answered one big question about the upgrade, but not the one regarding points.

And again, this remains the ONLY wargear upgrade to my knowledge that doesn't have a listed points value (even one of '0'). Whether it is '0' points or not, it needs to have a listing to say the point value is '0', as that's the way every single other wargear upgrade works in the entire game.

Does not... to you. We're not even arguing, just repeating. Fire it at GW and I'll happily abide by whatever ruling they deicde. Until then I don't read it how you read it. Sorry.

 Imateria wrote:
The Haemonculus Crucible of Malediction is a free wargear option.

Thanks for that! I'll add it to the FAQ questions for GW to answer.

But just to clarify: that is not a 'free' wargear option, it is a wargear option that doesn't have a points value listed. That's an important distinction because GW does have many '0' point weapons/wargear options, which sets the very clear precedent that every weapon/wargear option should have a listed point value, even if it is '0'. So any items that don't have a listing, are an issue of concern that need to be addressed (even if its just to give them a point value '0'), not that they are 'free' because there is no listing for them.

The exarch is a separate profile that simply replaces a squad member. It doesn't cost the same as another member of the squad, it just replaces them.

Otherwise you'd have to show me where they have their point value listed in the back. They don't. It is simply an option based on the models you have available.

It is an upgrade you don't pay points for. Just like the blue horrors.