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Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




Asmodios wrote:
Do people actually buy the official GW plastic bases? I looked into it when i needed some 32mm for an old box of necron warriors i had. I bought a pack of 100 off amazon for cheaper than buying 10 from GW


i bought some of the new scenics from GW and they were like 30$ for 40 32mms, 10 40mms, and 3 dreadnought bases (60mms?)

Seemed relatively reasonable.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 kodos wrote:
No point in playing a game were you auto loose turn 1 because your opponent brought double the amount of points.

7th was not the game of basic FOC armies against each other but about formations

If you wanted to have a competitive army you needed specific formation and allied forced. I am not talking about competitive or tournament armies here.

I played my Wolves several times in 7th with without formations, was wiped out turn 1 ever time and deployment took longer than the game itself

I don't consider this "you can still play the game" as it is not "playing" to place models on the table and remove all of them 15 minutes later without doing anything


So, exactly what I said: you had a legal army, you just didn't have a competitive army that could win against competitive armies that were doing their best to exploit the formation bonuses. "I can't compete" may be a legitimate complaint, but it is not the same as "I can't play".

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

My experience in North America, Canada in particular, is that it is substantially cheaper to make a WMH double theme list than it would be to make a 1750 list in 40k.

And when it comes to the second hand market? WMH is amazing. For under $600 CAD I purchased four themes and basically the entire Retribution model line. I can play anything I’d want. Some of that was full retail, but mostly second hand.

TLR - if you want a cheap game, WMH is where it’s at right now... in Canada.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 00:32:02


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 greatbigtree wrote:
My experience in North America, Canada in particular, is that it is substantially cheaper to make a WMH double theme list than it would be to make a 1750 list in 40k.

And when it comes to the second hand market? WMH is amazing. For under $600 CAD I purchased four themes and basically the entire Retribution model line. I can play anything I’d want. Some of that was full retail, but mostly second hand.

TLR - if you want a cheap game, WMH is where it’s at right now... in Canada.



Honestly i recall some shops not being able to move WMH stuff even at cost or super steep discount.

and having played it. its a hard eh. can be very cheap seasonally, and very nice (i know some dont like the aesthetics but thats a personal preference (also like the steam punk style)) models so long as they are not PVC. god i dont ever want to touch another PVC jack again. the amount of work it takes to get that stuff flashed filled and properly built is not worth it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 00:59:48


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

I like the game, and the models.

Anyhow, it is much less expensive to play. If only I had people to play with, other than Friday nights.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

 Stormatious wrote:
 Alphabet wrote:
I use 3rd party sites within the UK and it honestly is not all that bad. I looked into games like Bolt action and infinity not so long ago and I noticed the prices are not too far apart.

I will say that some kits seem way overpriced. But all in all, they are just as expensive as everything else nowadays IMHO.

Edit: I am aware that for everywhere else in the world they bumped up there prices quite substantially!



Oh because the brexit stuff they bumped it?


Oh, I'm sure that's one convenient excuse they'll happily claim. But in reality they're just pushing it as far as the market will allow. Just like they've done for years. As for the paint, brushes, green stuff, bases, & other hobby supplies - that all manner of other companies produce in equal + quality for less? They're relying on your ignorance.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

 kodos wrote:
Formerly Wu wrote:
I highly doubt (though could be wrong) that White Dwarf / GW brick-and-mortar business is net profitable for the company. Those look like loss leaders to me.

I would say they do, as I saw those things changing a lot over time and stores that were too large were scaled down (moved to smaller rooms that cost less with just one or no table to play), those that did not worked well closed and so on
Also what those stores had on stock changed a lot over time to keep them profitable

Of course in some cities/countries it might be different as just having the presence of a big GW store is worth it without making profit but they wouldn't do it if it is an overall los.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
I don't know about that, most factions you can start out with a couple of Start Collecting boxes and then fill in the gaps to get a workable army. Is that really $500? It is far from that in the UK.


Just got thru the numbers in a different topic, if just the cheapest boxes (start collection, core box, snap fit) is used you still end up around 400-500 depending on the army you play
before you start caring to win or talking about having the same 5 models 20 times to get the numbers.

Formerly Wu wrote:
That's always going to be the case if you play to chase the meta, no matter who you buy your models from. His point was that the game itself would still be around, and the core units from the majority of armies are still usable in anything but the most cutthroat competition.


happy_inquisitor wrote:
The size of a "full" army also matters. GW dropped their points values for their events to 1750 which was an instant 12.5% reduction in the cost of getting a full army on the table. Nothing to do with them if ETC/ITC want to stick to higher points values - actually given their approach of expecting people to do serious travelling for the tournament scene the cost of 250 points of models is perfectly rational to the ETC/ITC.


Stormatious wrote:
What do you mean by life time, do you mean some models become obsolete, or do you mean they are nerfed in a way where other models are needed or some thing. Either way i really hate the idea of models you buy wonday becoming obselete, thats rubbish and if thats true i would rather pick another wargame maybe like historical. I hope they have some thing written some where that allows models you bought a long time ago to still be used. ( i would still buy cool looking models though just for display )


happy_inquisitor wrote:
You only have that level of obsolescence if you are playing at a competitive level, in which case your other costs (travel, hotel, tournament fees) are way more than $100 per year which is what your costs above come out to (and you did not include selling the stuff you no longer want on ebay). If you are chasing the dragon of the competitive meta for any other reason than serious regular attendance of big tournaments then the price of GW models has nothing to do with what is going on in your life.


Jus to make things clear

I started Warhammer Fantasy at the end of 4th and beginning of 5th edition. Had a small group, tried to get everyone to play something different. I had a 3000 point Empire army and was just playing with friends, never competitive and also thought about a Khorne army just to have something different. And this was an expensive one as by that time a single Knight had nearly the price of Box plastic Infantry and ordering them at GW was kind of random as I wanted to have 10 Knight, 1 unit, with lances from one order and got 5 White Wolves, 5 from different knightly orders. Complaining on the Phone was complicated and the answer we got was that Knights in Blisters are packed randomly into Mail Orders.
Same with Artillery, I needed 3 Mail Orders until I got a cannon instead of a Mortar.

With 6th edition everything changed and my 3000 points were worth 1500 at best but did not fit the new restrictions anyway so it was more like 1000 points but with proxies as Haflings and some war machines were gone and never returned.

This was also the time I moved to a different city for job, so I stopped with Fantasy and started 40k with the local community.
Space Wolves in 3rd/4th edition

Guess what, things changed and I played Thousand Sons during 4th (a 3000 point collection as games were just 1500 but with some variation the army will grow. The whole thing is something around 1000 points with 8th edition Codex and no were near legal playable with the current rules)
.
As the game become worse over time the community shrinkend and we got into Warhammer again with 7th edition
My Empire army was still not useable (units never returned, army size changed as core units needed to be bigger now and so on) and I needed to start from scratch anyway so it dwarfs.
Again around 3000 points painted but only 2250 needed but just to have some variation

This was also the time I went to tournaments as my local Fantasy group did so and we played just for fun so I went there with a full melee army, which was also more expensive than the regular one.
Was a very fun time and so I decided to start the old dream of a Khorne army again.
A lot of expensive metal models again and a lot of conversions to get those Juggernauts from just one hero models.

This time I just bought what was really needed to get those 2250 points because I wanted to get it ready sooner and save money
8th edition hit, and my just bought Khorne army was not worth the points needed to play again (same for the dwarfs)

But this was also the big time of 40k here, as tournaments were bigger than for Fantasy (which was already declining at the end of 7th but just died with the edition change) and 5th was better than the previous ones

So back to Space Wolves and added some more units to play "Codex Hopper" with own colour scheme as I didn't want to buy 9 Rhinos just to have 3 grey, 3 blue and 3 green ones.
And I wanted to get around the problem that units just disappear/are removed from the game by playing different armies
Ended up with a lot more than before. Did not play with the meta but just what I wanted.
Still waited to get my 1kSons back to the game and with the new Codex the army split into CSM and Deamons. With the Sons not really being playable on their own (without regular CSM) I took the other half of the army and started Deamons
6th edition hit before I finished painting them

Family and Job things changed so 6th was over before I could play a game and than 7th came with the free unit inflating stuff
I played some games with Daemons, but as soon as formations hit my ~10k Space Marines could not make a single 1750 point army anymore (I had too many of the wrong units and too less of the others)


So you don't need to hunt down the meta to have the problem that your army becomes obsolete
Units get removed from the game, some may return and others are never seen again. Some you can use as proxy if the opponent/tournament allows it others are just nice models on the shelf.

Each time GW changes, the standard game size increases in 2 ways, total point cost rises and points per model decrease.
A 2000 point army in 3rd edition is now equal 1000 points in 8th.

Of course you can play 1000 points now and if you opponent allows proxies/count as and agree to play a non standard point size and so your initial investment lasted 20 years.
But in reality as long as there is no fixed group that does not changes over time (they are out there, I still know people who just play 5th edition 40k and never made the edition change) it is easier and cheaper to just shelf your stuff after and start from scratch


PS:
This is also a reason why Skirmish games are on the rise as no one wants to have a huge collection of an army on the shelf that will never be used again. (and it is also easier to get people playing an OOP skirmish game from time to time than to get people playing an old edition of 40k)


LOL.
If true? Especially that 10k SM part? Then you're incompetent at picking units/making armies.


Btw; Other than adding +10 Grey Hunters this edition, I've been using the same SW army since 2nd edition.
By the end of 2nd I had 3k pts worth & although points have shifted up/down/back & forth/etc, this has always been enough inventory to field a functioning army (& still is). Until here in 8th where I found I needed at least another 5 models to make a third troop slot if I wanted to field a Battalion.
Note that these new Grey Hunters were optional. I could just as easily made 2k+pt Patrols/Vanguards/Spearheads/Outriders....
Anything else spent on my SW has been purely cosmetic - metal shoulder pads, replacing my ancient Armourcast drop pods, etc
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Desubot wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
TLR - if you want a cheap game, WMH is where it’s at right now... in Canada.


Honestly i recall some shops not being able to move WMH stuff even at cost or super steep discount.


And that's why it's cheap to play. If it were hotter, nobody would be unloading and shops wouldn't have it on clearance.

   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit




San Jose, CA

Seabass wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
We have a guy here who started 40k five years ago.
He said he had spent 30,000 Euro for all the stuff he bought.



I've been keeping a record (bad idea?) and I've spent £550 in the year I've been back. To be honest, it's not the most expensive of my hobbies...


This. The supercharger for my mustang was 2800, and i got it cheap, the stuff to install it (fuel lines, injectors, cooling, belts, etc...) was another 2000

hell, I have a multiple optics from trijicon for some of my rifles that cost more than any of my armies.

its all about what you love and what you love to do.

i love pushing man dollies, driving a fast car (though i dont do that anymore)), shooting, and hanging out with my daughter and wife, in reverse order!


40k is the least expensive hobby(for me at least) that I have. At least I can go play 40k on Thursday night for basically free. If I want to take my race car out(just for a trackday) it's probably close to $5-900 (trackday, gas(race & hauler), tires, etc). That's not even including the car itself & all of the mods.
Shooting is a close second, hell the last S&W I bought would've snagged me a warlord titan, at least the revolver has an actual secondary use that could save my(family) life. Warlord isnt doin much besides looking badass and costing a metric shittonne of points.

Is 40k more expensive than (insert other game) probably. Are GW's hobby supplies more expensive than anothers? You bet your sweet bippy. Are they better/higher quality? Kinda depends. I'll always prefer Tamiya paints but sometimes GW does make a color that I need & I complain about the pots. I recently needed to replace my tamiya stuff & forgot how much value they have over (specifically) GW. Tip; tamiya metallics are probably the best.
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

Don't buy anything from GW but the miniatures; OR buy the mini's second hand from ebay. 3D print them if you can afford to do so. Everything else is just arts and crafts. Paint, primer, paintbrushes, green stuff, bases. Even generic stuff like weapons, grenades, capes, banners, sci-fi armor. You can easily make them or buy them yourself. All it takes is time...granted, its a large amount of time, but thats what hobies are for right? Killing time.

Terrain, you can make using clay, cardboard, paper mache, styrofoam. Whatever you have at your disposal, and whatever you can buy cheaply. I loved making terrain out of clay. I'm lucky in that i have an artist for an aunt, and she happened to have several old kilns lying about in her studio. (Turns out I didn't even use it that often. Most clay you can get at arts and crafts stores can be dried in home ovens. Best stuff needed the kiln of course.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/02 05:26:04


Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
Lego Warhammer 40,000. Someone make it happen. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Don't buy anything from GW but the miniatures; OR buy the mini's second hand from ebay. 3D print them if you can afford to do so. Everything else is just arts and crafts. Paint, primer, paintbrushes, green stuff, bases. Even generic stuff like weapons, grenades, capes, banners, sci-fi armor. You can easily make them or buy them yourself. All it takes is time...granted, its a large amount of time, but thats what hobies are for right? Killing time.

Terrain, you can make using clay, cardboard, paper mache, styrofoam. Whatever you have at your disposal, and whatever you can buy cheaply. I loved making terrain out of clay. I'm lucky in that i have an artist for an aunt, and she happened to have several old kilns lying about in her studio. (Turns out I didn't even use it that often. Most clay you can get at arts and crafts stores can be dried in home ovens. Best stuff needed the kiln of course.)


Not everyone thinks this way, some of us would rather our local clubs stay in business, mine is literally open 24/7 with 6 gaming tables and a couple larger ones, we do 3-5 league at any given time that we dont pay for. We can do that b.c our players supports the business.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 07:22:14


15k+ 12k+ 5k :Harlequin: 4k

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Near Jupiter.

I dont mind supporting my local store, but come on whats up with these anoying paint containers, come on, what the heck. Life would be so much easier with a simple way of extracting the paint, its like can you make it more obvious you are trying to suck as much money with pots that constantly spill out paint when you simple close the lid....

edit - It may not be on purpose that the design of the containers do this, but its kind of strange.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 06:24:22


Learning about 40k and painting models.


 
   
Made in at
Privateer




Austria

Peregrine wrote:
So, exactly what I said: you had a legal army, you just didn't have a competitive army that could win against competitive armies that were doing their best to exploit the formation bonuses. "I can't compete" may be a legitimate complaint, but it is not the same as "I can't play".


I don't consider removing models from the table without doing anything "playing a game"
Not talking about being able to win, but being able on taking part playing the game

ccs wrote:
LOL.
If true? Especially that 10k SM part? Then you're incompetent at picking units/making armies.


I just never cared about what was good/bad or "hunting the meta" but used the stuff I liked from the fluff and/or wanted to paint.
Main problem is that I have a lot of things using the wrong weapons/wargear, wrong unit size or models that are not with the army any more (the Leman Russ says hello).
So nothing that can be solved with a little investment but this is the point (like buying some more Guard stuff to take the Leman Russ as an AM Detachment)

Saying that the high cost is justifiable because you can still play with it in 10 or 20 years and this is only a problem if you play the flavour of the month, is something I cannot agree with

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
My experience in North America, Canada in particular, is that it is substantially cheaper to make a WMH double theme list than it would be to make a 1750 list in 40k.

And when it comes to the second hand market? WMH is amazing. For under $600 CAD I purchased four themes and basically the entire Retribution model line. I can play anything I’d want. Some of that was full retail, but mostly second hand.

TLR - if you want a cheap game, WMH is where it’s at right now... in Canada.


So WMH is much cheaper on ebay, if you buy your stuff on ebay that is relevant to you. If you buy it in the game store it is relevant in a bad way - when/if you want to sell it you will get almost nothing for it and your cost of ownership is almost the entire purchase cost. By contrast the prices of GW stuff on ebay hold up pretty well, so the cost of ownership for those models will usually be something like 40% less than the purchase cost.

And in the UK I have not seen anyone playing WMH for a couple of years, no point having models that sit on a shelf because nobody plays the game. A very quick search showed up 50 times as many 40K tournaments here as WMH tournaments so I'd say that is a virtually dead game here. The models had better be almost free on ebay.
   
Made in nz
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Near Jupiter.

happy_inquisitor wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
My experience in North America, Canada in particular, is that it is substantially cheaper to make a WMH double theme list than it would be to make a 1750 list in 40k.

And when it comes to the second hand market? WMH is amazing. For under $600 CAD I purchased four themes and basically the entire Retribution model line. I can play anything I’d want. Some of that was full retail, but mostly second hand.

TLR - if you want a cheap game, WMH is where it’s at right now... in Canada.


So WMH is much cheaper on ebay, if you buy your stuff on ebay that is relevant to you. If you buy it in the game store it is relevant in a bad way - when/if you want to sell it you will get almost nothing for it and your cost of ownership is almost the entire purchase cost. By contrast the prices of GW stuff on ebay hold up pretty well, so the cost of ownership for those models will usually be something like 40% less than the purchase cost.

And in the UK I have not seen anyone playing WMH for a couple of years, no point having models that sit on a shelf because nobody plays the game. A very quick search showed up 50 times as many 40K tournaments here as WMH tournaments so I'd say that is a virtually dead game here. The models had better be almost free on ebay.


What is WMH?,


Thank you.

Learning about 40k and painting models.


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Stormatious wrote:


What is WMH?,


Thank you.


An almost perfect example of my point. Warmachine/Hordes; a game which was briefly popular but which I have not seen for a couple of years.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

happy_inquisitor wrote:

And in the UK I have not seen anyone playing WMH for a couple of years, no point having models that sit on a shelf because nobody plays the game. A very quick search showed up 50 times as many 40K tournaments here as WMH tournaments so I'd say that is a virtually dead game here. The models had better be almost free on ebay.

Indeed, it appears that WMH is almost dead in Europe but will still be played in the States.
GW managed to turn around their business model for the better after Kirby left.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 08:06:35


Former moderator 40kOnline

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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut









happy_inquisitor wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:


What is WMH?,


Thank you.


An almost perfect example of my point. Warmachine/Hordes; a game which was briefly popular but which I have not seen for a couple of years.


Not to be confused with Warhammer Fantasy Battles, a game which was popular for a very long time and then suddenly vanished.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Stormatious wrote:
I dont mind supporting my local store, but come on whats up with these anoying paint containers, come on, what the heck. Life would be so much easier with a simple way of extracting the paint, its like can you make it more obvious you are trying to suck as much money with pots that constantly spill out paint when you simple close the lid....

edit - It may not be on purpose that the design of the containers do this, but its kind of strange.


I think you may be overstating things a bit on the paint pots. They're certainly not my favourite style of pots and GW paint is, like most of they're products, on the more expensive end of the scale, but I've never had a major problem with wasted paint with any of the current style pots. I've had some of those pots last me years of near-constant use. Sounds like maybe being a bit more careful when closing the lid might save you a lot of paint.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I've moved a lot since I got out of college, in multiple states. Some areas had really strong WMH communities, some played a lot of infinity, one played a lot of classic battletech. The only consistencies I've seen in the wargaming communities across all the states I've lived, is 40k/AOS, X-Wing, and Magic. Those are also the more expensive games to keep up with.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




 Peregrine wrote:
 kodos wrote:
No point in playing a game were you auto loose turn 1 because your opponent brought double the amount of points.

7th was not the game of basic FOC armies against each other but about formations

If you wanted to have a competitive army you needed specific formation and allied forced. I am not talking about competitive or tournament armies here.

I played my Wolves several times in 7th with without formations, was wiped out turn 1 ever time and deployment took longer than the game itself

I don't consider this "you can still play the game" as it is not "playing" to place models on the table and remove all of them 15 minutes later without doing anything


So, exactly what I said: you had a legal army, you just didn't have a competitive army that could win against competitive armies that were doing their best to exploit the formation bonuses. "I can't compete" may be a legitimate complaint, but it is not the same as "I can't play".


Yeah, I play at a place that buys up a lot of miniatures from estate sales and someone found a huge rogue trader harlequin army in someone's basement, so I gobbled up like one of each sculpt that didn't look like ass at a great price.

Guess what? Out of the 30 sculpts I have, four are not WYSIWYG and legal in the current game. That's not always the case, but it is often enough to impress me.
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 John Prins wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
I mean, i ordered just ONE black round base for The Great Unclean One and that costs 12$ ( pretty sure it costs about 5 cents or so to make that base, im just guessing ). Also it seems that citadel is the smallest paints you can get, also some of the worse design for a container for the paint. Half of my paint ends up gettin spilled over the sides of the container just because thats how it acts when i close the cap... And then theres the most expensive spray paints i have ever seen... etc etc

What are your thoughts on this?, do you think its a bit ridiculous that things seem to cost more and come in less quantity compared to every other war game?

edit - Also bought some green stuff, which is about the size of a 2 space marines ( the blue and the green together )... thought there would be alot more, and that was 24$

Any way, im not complaining to be fair, im more interested in what others think about this compared to other wargames, or what ever knowledge/thoughts they have on this.

edit - But if this seems just like me complaining please delete this thread and i apologise.


GW is definitely stupidly predatory when it comes to stuff you can get elsewhere. Glue, tools, green stuff, NEVER buy that stuff from GW, everything is 3x the price or more. One exception, those painting handles are like $10 CAD and well worth it.

Paint-wise, I'll use GW paint because it's easy to acquire, that's it. I have a sizable range of Reaper and Vajello paints a well, but some shades are just unique to GW and I can rely on getting replacement paints the next day, where if I need to order Reaper paints it's a couple weeks because no dealers are nearby. So there's a price for convenience I'm willing to pay.

Miniature wise, if GW is pretty much the most expensive. You could probably find corner cases, but in general, they are the most expensive.

Now, does that matter? Does GW provide value for the money? Obviously the people playing and collecting the game feel they're getting something out of it or they'd skip it. There are plenty of cheaper games none of us will play because we don't like the minis, the lore, the gameplay, even at one third the price of GW.


idk about the glue part. gw plastic glue is the least aromatic plastic glue i have tried. it is a bit more but not crazy amounts more so generally speaking that I consider worth it... thir tools are a a complete rip off as are thier paints and green stuff though. and thier superglue is literally a scam. I have had to grsab some at events to go quick model repair twice, and in both instances at least 1 of the bottle didn't even have super glue in it, it was a sealed tube of air. (in one box it was 2/6 just air)

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

War Machine / Hordes still has a following in London, Ontario.

I like the game play better than 40k. In North America, even buying at full retail, the game is cheaper than 40k would be.

Local tourneys run 1500 to 2000 points, in 40k. WMH tends to be paired lists at 75 points.

While cases can be made for both to be expensive, particularly if you don't play the "main" factions of either system, WMH is by far cheaper in North America.
   
Made in us
Haughty Harad Serpent Rider





Richmond, VA

Absolutely not - out of all the wargames, playing Advanced Squad Leader is certainly the most expensive, as more than half of the supplements are out of print at any given time and sell for several hundred dollars apiece.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Don't buy anything from GW but the miniatures; OR buy the mini's second hand from ebay. 3D print them if you can afford to do so. Everything else is just arts and crafts. Paint, primer, paintbrushes, green stuff, bases. Even generic stuff like weapons, grenades, capes, banners, sci-fi armor. You can easily make them or buy them yourself. All it takes is time...granted, its a large amount of time, but thats what hobies are for right? Killing time.

Eh, I'd rather spend time converting/painting models, than doing pointless minutiae that cost you more in time than you ever "save" by doing so. Especially when GW accessories really upped their game in cost-effectiveness (also completely refuting the OP argument). Case in point, you can make skulls out of greenstuff, wasting time and expensive material, ending up with bad looking ones, you can buy gakky third party resin skulls for 1$ each, or grab GWs 350 skull pack for peanuts, each one being perfect scale for game, nicely looking, costing you literally less than the greenstuff you'd use, never mind your time. Ditto for bases, if you want to go easy route, arts and crafts is fine, but when you want say detailed fantasy or industrial bases, GW's base packs (such as this* one) are literally impossible to beat, 55 bases for less than the greenstuff you'd spend making something looking far worse, or for the cost of 10-12 gakky resin third party bases (small ones, too, that 65 mm base alone would cost good 10-15$ in resin...). My time is money too.

* https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Sector-Mechanicum-Industrial-Bases-2017
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




GW craft supplies seem to be overpriced pointlessness, considering you can get exactly the same stuff cheaper from many outlets.

As for their models, some of the "horde" style boxes (e.g. daemons, guard, orks) seem reasonable value for money, but their "premium" models are scaling a bit out of control (greater daemons at £80-£90 each for example). it comes down to pricing versus the number of models required for the game, which can be quite arbitrary. many other systems actually cost most than GW PER MODEL (for an infantry model for example), but if you only need 6 models in your typical army it works out cheaper to play. based on the rules, and the size of game that is popular/fun (for example Infinity comes in at close to 10 euros per infantry model, on average, but you don't need many models for a typical game)

If you were only to play kill team, for example, GW models would seem pretty cheap.

Mark.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/03 00:28:39


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

I don't think GW's per box pricing is particularly egregious by fantasy/sci-fi wargaming industry standards. The issue is that the fanbase loves its huge 2000 point games so you end up having to buy a lot of stuff. However, I think their paint is exceptionally overpriced. I mean, really, five dollars for a pot of paint?

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler







Cheeslord wrote:
GW craft supplies seem to be overpriced pointlessness, considering you can get exactly the same stuff cheaper from many outlets.

As for their models, some of the "horde" style boxes (e.g. daemons, guard, orks) seem reasonable value for money, but their "premium" models are scaling a bit out of control (greater daemons at £80-£90 each for example). it comes down to pricing versus the number of models required for the game, which can be quite arbitrary. many other systems actually cost most than GW PER MODEL (for an infantry model for example), but if you only need 6 models in your typical army it works out cheaper to play. based on the rules, and the size of game that is popular/fun (for example Infinity comes in at close to 10 euros per infantry model, on average, but you don't need many models for a typical game)

If you were only to play kill team, for example, GW models would seem pretty cheap.

Mark.


I can agree with most of that. I pretty much started in WWII style miniatures (going full WWII for a while), so Vallejo paints worked well for me, and I couldn't see spending more per ml especially in a paint pot. I have also never really seen the need for regular tools, glues and cheap brushes.

I think most GW miniatures are okay at about a 20% discount. Not exactly a good value, but cause minimal grumbling by me. There are exceptions of course. I felt Shadowspear was just worth the ~30% off I managed by stacking eBay coupons. I also felt that the new CSM stuff was a little bit pricey for units that I would expect to buy multiples of. I also feel that some of the older stuff (example: Chaos Predator) is overpriced given the current time standard poor quality of the model compared to competitors (I think most/all Mantic vehicles are better than the Rhino). Then there is the single character models most of which are just pants on head crazy priced. I kinda want Haarken Worldclaimer, but not at $35 I don't. I would much rather start a Death Watch kill team instead.

As for Kill Team, I wouldn't say putting together a team is exactly cheap. However, seeing as most factions can have a pretty good roster at $70 US, I think it is an actual affordable level for many potential players to at least play a 40k game. Most of the opponents I have played in Kill Team always wanted to play 40k but simply couldn't afford to until Kill Team. I seriously doubt many will move on anything beyond a few kill teams, or at best, maybe a 1000 point army.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not going to defend GW's hobby tools or even their paints (some of which I still buy just to have all my guys look the same) price wise.

One thing I've seen on dakka and other online outlets is this idea that to get into the hobby you drop the money to have 1750 to 2500 army in one go, which at this point is probably a grand or two depending on what army your playing.

That was not my experience when my gaming group got into it about a decade ago and not the culture around the stores I play at. Most of our players are willing to play a smaller game to let some one test the waters and see how different armies feel.

I'm curious about other places if such a steep buy in is expected?
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






I doubt there is a required buy in anywhere. It's probably just used as a basis for making hyperbolic claims about expense.

“You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common, They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.” -- The Doctor 
   
 
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