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Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

Brutus_Apex wrote:
This sort of attitude does not make you come across as a hardened veteran of the days of yore, but as a smug gatekeeper.


Good, somebody needs to be.
Uh, no. No-one "needs" to be gatekeeping.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
DR:90S++G++MB+IPw40k07-D++A++/sWD366R++T(F)DM+ 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Uh, no. No-one "needs" to be gatekeeping.


Evidently, this is not the case.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Uh, no. No-one "needs" to be gatekeeping.


Evidently, this is not the case.
Evidently? On what evidence?

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
DR:90S++G++MB+IPw40k07-D++A++/sWD366R++T(F)DM+ 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

-Guardsman- wrote:
I'm firmly on team "GW has shown in the recent past that they can do better".
I'm amazed that anyone could take a view different to this one.

We know they can do better. We've seen them do better. We saw them do an entire range of Warhammer HQ models that came 2 to a box and had various options for different weapons, BSB, mounts, etc. We saw them do a Space Marine Captain kit with a whole bunch of options. By today's standards these kits are primitive, meaning that they could do seriously multi-part, multi-pose, multi-option HQ kits if they wanted to, but they don't.

Consider that in the space of one edition we went from kits like this, to kits like this. Just look at the damned sprues and see the devolution.

I've seen people praising this mini:


... when it just as 2D as the basic single-piece metal sculpts of the old days. GW can do better than this.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/08 01:42:26


   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Uh, no. No-one "needs" to be gatekeeping.


Evidently, this is not the case.
Evidently? On what evidence?


Because they like to do it? Seems like the most easy and logical conclusion.


when it just as 2D as the basic single-piece metal sculpts of the old days. GW can do better than this.

Not sure, but it may have started with GK. Practicaly every character and unit we have is build out of one of two boxs of infantry. Even draigo can be build, if someone can make a stormshield for him. It isn't that bad because the plastic GK stuff seems easy to pose. But what I really don't like is 35$ characters that could just be regular troopers. The palatin for sobs for example. I would get here as hq with a jump pack option, maybe some melee specific option. Not asking for a whole upgrade sprue, but two back backs and a pistol and melee weapon are wouldn't destroy the plastic economy. Instead the model looks like something one can build out of a regular SoB model. And by build I mean assemble.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in nl
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





The Plague Marine kit mentioned in the OP is a nice example of what I don't want from a kit. I'll take my ork boyz kit over it any day of the week. Yes the models don't look as good but for me that's better. I want to customize my squad a bit without having to cut away/greenstuff bits that won't fit if you try any non-approved load out for a model. Including more than 1 of every special weapon would also be great while we are at it.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Evidently? On what evidence?


I guess people complaining about having it rough, when its easier to get into the hobby than it ever has been.

Just remember, it takes all kinds of fruit to make fruit cup. Some are white knights, some are dark. Some are gate keepers, some are loremasters, and artists and tournament winning champions. We all have our roll to play in the hobby and provide our own unique viewpoint. Mine is that the golden age of warhammer is when it was hyper "grimdark". Full of fantasy elements, close combat, nihilism, despair, and apparently monopose models. Clearly I think my interpretation of warhammer is the best and everyone else should share it. Thats why it's my opinion.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

Karol wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Uh, no. No-one "needs" to be gatekeeping.


Evidently, this is not the case.
Evidently? On what evidence?


Because they like to do it? Seems like the most easy and logical conclusion.
That's not evidence for why people "need" to gatekeep.


when it just as 2D as the basic single-piece metal sculpts of the old days. GW can do better than this.

Not sure, but it may have started with GK. Practicaly every character and unit we have is build out of one of two boxs of infantry. Even draigo can be build, if someone can make a stormshield for him. It isn't that bad because the plastic GK stuff seems easy to pose. But what I really don't like is 35$ characters that could just be regular troopers. The palatin for sobs for example. I would get here as hq with a jump pack option, maybe some melee specific option. Not asking for a whole upgrade sprue, but two back backs and a pistol and melee weapon are wouldn't destroy the plastic economy. Instead the model looks like something one can build out of a regular SoB model. And by build I mean assemble.
The same can be said of nearly all kits though.
A Space Marine Captain is pretty much just a cloak and a fancy paintjob away from a Sergeant.
A Company Commander/Platoon Commander is maybe a fancy hat and torso away from a Sergeant.
It's really only non-human factions (or human factions with massively augmented leaders, a la Mechanicus) that have massive dimorphism between their heroes and troops, like Orks (where Warbosses are significantly bulkier than Boyz) or Tyranids (good luck converting a Hive Tyrant from a Genestealer or Termagant). But, considering that many hero kits come with unique bits and poses/components, there's definitely a market for them.

So, for example, Tor Garadon - I don't play Imperial Fist, yet I bought Tor Garadon, and converted him into a regular Gravis Captain, because the core sculpt looked good. Even if mechanically, he's identical to the Gravis Captain from Dark Imperium, I like how he looks and the tweaks I've made - and that's part of the hobby for me.

Again - if you don't want to buy a unique hero model, you're not forced to. If, as you say, you could make it out of spare bits, there's nothing stopping you.

Brutus_Apex wrote:
Evidently? On what evidence?


I guess people complaining about having it rough, when its easier to get into the hobby than it ever has been.
There's a difference between informing someone that things have improved and gatekeeping.

Just remember, it takes all kinds of fruit to make fruit cup. Some are white knights, some are dark. Some are gate keepers, some are loremasters, and artists and tournament winning champions. We all have our roll to play in the hobby and provide our own unique viewpoint. Mine is that the golden age of warhammer is when it was hyper "grimdark". Full of fantasy elements, close combat, nihilism, despair, and apparently monopose models. Clearly I think my interpretation of warhammer is the best and everyone else should share it. Thats why it's my opinion.
Nothing wrong with differing opinions, as long as you can accept those of others. The problem is that gatekeeping, by it's very nature, actively rejects other opinions. That's why I don't condone gatekeeping.

Gatekeeping isn't "a way of enjoying 40k", it's "I have my way of enjoying it, and if you don't share that, you're doing it wrong". There is no constructive role gatekeeping plays because of it's very nature of being destructive of other opinions.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
DR:90S++G++MB+IPw40k07-D++A++/sWD366R++T(F)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
I'm firmly on team "GW has shown in the recent past that they can do better".
I'm amazed that anyone could take a view different to this one.

We know they can do better. We've seen them do better. We saw them do an entire range of Warhammer HQ models that came 2 to a box and had various options for different weapons, BSB, mounts, etc. We saw them do a Space Marine Captain kit with a whole bunch of options. By today's standards these kits are primitive, meaning that they could do seriously multi-part, multi-pose, multi-option HQ kits if they wanted to, but they don't.

Consider that in the space of one edition we went from kits like this, to kits like this. Just look at the damned sprues and see the devolution.



Gotta agree. I've literally just built and painted some Deathshroud I got for Christmas, the models are nice, but by god- the kit is restrictive. Sure, you have head and (one) torso options, but they can only go on certain models. You cannot put head A on body B, ever. Not without some converting, whilst that is not beyond my skills in converting you are still left with the same problem you have with the Blightlords. They all look too distinct. If you want another squad of them or to add to the squad, you will always have a guy with the scythe outstretched, as that one is meant to be the leader, just like you will always have fly guy repeated in the BLT kit.

So glad I only want one squad of them. But that kit is such a backward step after things like the Blightkings, who are a hallmark of despite having 5 sets of legs, you can get loads and loads of poses out of them without converting due to the heads, weapons and chests all being able to go together in multiple ways.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Harlequin Troupe and TSons kits are the the height of GW kit design for 40k IMO. They do a great job of balancing dynamism with posable options. Since then, they seem to have increasingly opted for either push-fit or essentially the same thing - monopose with glue.

I don't think monopose is completely without its place, but they have to be really special. An example IMO is the Namarti Thralls kit from AOS:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Namarti-Thralls-2018

This kit is monopose for 7 of the 10, and double pose for 3 (you can swap between two weapon options for three that change the pose substantially - and you can also put the banner on any of them, so that helps too). But it makes up for it in the sheer diversity and dynamism of the way they are posed. The pictures don't really do it justice - when you actually have them there on the table, they just look awesome, arguably even better than the quins. It helps that there are 10 (13 with the double poses), and you'll never realistically take a squad of more than 10, so each individual squad won't have any repeats.

The deathguard stuff is the worst of the worst from a design standpoint. Each model looks great if you only have one of it, but they're garbage for building a whole army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 21:09:02


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I feel like Forge World nailed the perfect plague marine/terminator look and they should have just done plastic versions of that. Leave the special bling for heroes and unit champions where it will look good.

Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I've got two sets of those Terminators. They're fantastic. And now also illegal thanks to GW.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Stick a bit on them and call them 'converted counts-as DG terminators'.

Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Stick a bit on them and call them 'converted counts-as DG terminators'.
Hard to do when they've got completely illegal weapon combos (Heavy Flamer + Lightning Claw).

   
Made in gb
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Stick a bit on them and call them 'converted counts-as DG terminators'.
Hard to do when they've got completely illegal weapon combos (Heavy Flamer + Lightning Claw).


Counts as plague spewer plus whatever ccw the rest are equipped with. I’ve got several embiggened metal CSM Termies in my various Blightlords that I have and no one has had a problem so far.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






On the Crimson Path

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Stick a bit on them and call them 'converted counts-as DG terminators'.
Hard to do when they've got completely illegal weapon combos (Heavy Flamer + Lightning Claw).


Plague Spewer and Balesword (call 'em baleclaws). If GW every decides to make a Heavy Plague Spewer, you're in there.

   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Stick a bit on them and call them 'converted counts-as DG terminators'.
Hard to do when they've got completely illegal weapon combos (Heavy Flamer + Lightning Claw).


Plague Spewer and Balesword (call 'em baleclaws). If GW every decides to make a Heavy Plague Spewer, you're in there.


Well, Plague Spewer is already the heavy Version of the Plague belcher. The even heavier Version is the Plague spitter on vehicles or the Double Barreled thing our new HQ carries.
So, everyone using their former heavy flamers as Plague spewers should be fine, especially since they share the same profile, just with added Plague weapon rule (they did at least, not sure if the new Codex changes things). I'm also using flamers as Plague belchers on my classic Plague Marines built out of CSM.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Evidently? On what evidence?


I guess people complaining about having it rough, when its easier to get into the hobby than it ever has been.

Just remember, it takes all kinds of fruit to make fruit cup. Some are white knights, some are dark. Some are gate keepers, some are loremasters, and artists and tournament winning champions. We all have our roll to play in the hobby and provide our own unique viewpoint. Mine is that the golden age of warhammer is when it was hyper "grimdark". Full of fantasy elements, close combat, nihilism, despair, and apparently monopose models. Clearly I think my interpretation of warhammer is the best and everyone else should share it. Thats why it's my opinion.


Yeah no, it doesn't. For every pompous gatekeeper, whining rules lawyer and cheating baby seal clubber you excise from your hobby group, you gain 3-5 non-toxic players who would have been driven off by the obnoxious douchebags.

A viewpoint being 'unique' does not mean 'makes the community better'.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







the_scotsman wrote:
...Yeah no, it doesn't. For every pompous gatekeeper, whining rules lawyer and cheating baby seal clubber you excise from your hobby group, you gain 3-5 non-toxic players who would have been driven off by the obnoxious douchebags.

A viewpoint being 'unique' does not mean 'makes the community better'.


Which presumes that people can be clearly divided into obnoxious douchebags and non-toxic people, when all too often obnoxious douchebaggery is just two people who disagree with each other sitting in the same group. Tell them that the hobby is an absolute and there must be one grand unified vision for how the game should work and how it should be played, and anyone who disagrees is an obnoxious douchebag, then you'll have problems and nobody will have any fun. Acknowledge that the hobby can be different things to different people and figure out a way to park them both with like-minded people so that they can both have fun, maybe you'll discover that neither one was ever really an obnoxious douchebag.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 AnomanderRake wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
...Yeah no, it doesn't. For every pompous gatekeeper, whining rules lawyer and cheating baby seal clubber you excise from your hobby group, you gain 3-5 non-toxic players who would have been driven off by the obnoxious douchebags.

A viewpoint being 'unique' does not mean 'makes the community better'.


Which presumes that people can be clearly divided into obnoxious douchebags and non-toxic people, when all too often obnoxious douchebaggery is just two people who disagree with each other sitting in the same group. Tell them that the hobby is an absolute and there must be one grand unified vision for how the game should work and how it should be played, and anyone who disagrees is an obnoxious douchebag, then you'll have problems and nobody will have any fun. Acknowledge that the hobby can be different things to different people and figure out a way to park them both with like-minded people so that they can both have fun, maybe you'll discover that neither one was ever really an obnoxious douchebag.


There doesn't have to be. And in fact, with the right social norms in place regarding clear communication between individuals the type of game they'd like to be playing, you can make your group even bigger than you could possibly imagine.

But there's a lingering idea in the areas of "geek/nerd culture" that have not yet fully hit the mainstream that ridiculous standards of leniency must be extended to anyone who shares your interest that would be completely unacceptable in pretty much any other hobby group.

This simply isn't the case. You don't have to accept behavior that wouldn't fly in a 6th grade classroom from a grown adult just because they also want to play a plastic toy soldier game. And when you learn this, you'll start to see those more amicable people who come by once or twice and then quietly stop showing up...not do that anymore. Because generally, the more bearable to be around someone is, the lower their tolerance for being in the presence of an obnoxious manchild is relative to their die-hard need to play a game in order to get social interaction.

If someone in your group wanders around to peoples' tables loudly opining about how such and such person's army 'violates the spirit of the game' and 'doesn't belong in 40k!' then you absolutely will see your group grow if you make it clear to them that they can either keep their opinions to themselves or they can leave.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman 795127 11025469 wrote:

There doesn't have to be. And in fact, with the right social norms in place regarding clear communication between individuals the type of game they'd like to be playing, you can make your group even bigger than you could possibly imagine.


People living inside the same blocks can't find common grounds, and you think that people that live in different places, have different socio-economic standings and backgrounds are ever going to come to an agreement on anything? And that is people from the same country or even part of the world.
I still can't get my head around the idea of playing with win conditions, not to win, but also not to lose, while having fun and majority of the fun comming from stuff done outside of the game. And technicaly my people are in europe, so not that different from western folk.

Also the making bigger thing, works only in very large cities. Normaly the number of people that can afford and are willing to get in to table tops is limited, further limited by number of people that want to pick up GW games, and then specifically w40k. You kick out 4-5 people from a group, because you don't like them and there is a good chance that in a 80k city, there just won't be any people to take their place.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Karol wrote:

People living inside the same blocks can't find common grounds, and you think that people that live in different places, have different socio-economic standings and backgrounds are ever going to come to an agreement on anything? And that is people from the same country or even part of the world.
I still can't get my head around the idea of playing with win conditions, not to win, but also not to lose, while having fun and majority of the fun comming from stuff done outside of the game. And technicaly my people are in europe, so not that different from western folk.


Poland is emphatically in Europe, mate. I get that you're rping as some sort of post-bloc sociopath, but the racism is wearing thin at this point.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maybe parts of it. But if you think I rp, then go read about what the term Poland B means.

Also I am not a sociopath, I am autistic, those are two different disorders.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in jp
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Anyone remember when this thread was about model kits?

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Made in us
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 posermcbogus wrote:
Anyone remember when this thread was about model kits?


Yeah, generally the argument plays out pretty quick.

Someone complains "KIDS - I MEAN KITS THESE DAYS ARE ALL MONOPOSE" and posts a picture of a monopose kit made recently.

Then it gets pointed out that there are kits released recently that are anything but monopose.

Then someone goes "but wait, look at this kit that was released in a different edition - you could pose that one real good!"

And that's...the extent of the discussion, really. GW discontinued their large and expansive range of many many many monopose miniatures that they had, and now when they do a minimal-investment unit that you're generally supposed to only buy 1 maybe 2 of, it's either full or partial monopose, but in plastic now. This makes people think every kit released is monopose now.

As to "why don't gw make more kits like the multipart captain or the exalted sorcerors?" I dunno. Maybe they sold like crap, because GW has never given you a compelling reason to want one Exalted Sorceror, much less 3, in a Thousand Sons list. Maybe 60$ for 3 characters is a less attractive price point to GW's consumer base than 30$ for one character. Evidence would seem to suggest that's so.

The objective of any company that produces art is not to produce the best art. It is to make the most profit. that is the goal of every company that makes everything. Sometimes the thing that makes the most profit is the thing that is the best quality. That is not often the case. Some might call this a flaw in the logic of constructing a society this way, but when it comes to plastic miniatures, the sins seem to be relatively minor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/10 03:24:23


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

the_scotsman wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
...Yeah no, it doesn't. For every pompous gatekeeper, whining rules lawyer and cheating baby seal clubber you excise from your hobby group, you gain 3-5 non-toxic players who would have been driven off by the obnoxious douchebags.

A viewpoint being 'unique' does not mean 'makes the community better'.


Which presumes that people can be clearly divided into obnoxious douchebags and non-toxic people, when all too often obnoxious douchebaggery is just two people who disagree with each other sitting in the same group. Tell them that the hobby is an absolute and there must be one grand unified vision for how the game should work and how it should be played, and anyone who disagrees is an obnoxious douchebag, then you'll have problems and nobody will have any fun. Acknowledge that the hobby can be different things to different people and figure out a way to park them both with like-minded people so that they can both have fun, maybe you'll discover that neither one was ever really an obnoxious douchebag.


There doesn't have to be. And in fact, with the right social norms in place regarding clear communication between individuals the type of game they'd like to be playing, you can make your group even bigger than you could possibly imagine.

But there's a lingering idea in the areas of "geek/nerd culture" that have not yet fully hit the mainstream that ridiculous standards of leniency must be extended to anyone who shares your interest that would be completely unacceptable in pretty much any other hobby group.

This simply isn't the case. You don't have to accept behavior that wouldn't fly in a 6th grade classroom from a grown adult just because they also want to play a plastic toy soldier game. And when you learn this, you'll start to see those more amicable people who come by once or twice and then quietly stop showing up...not do that anymore. Because generally, the more bearable to be around someone is, the lower their tolerance for being in the presence of an obnoxious manchild is relative to their die-hard need to play a game in order to get social interaction.

If someone in your group wanders around to peoples' tables loudly opining about how such and such person's army 'violates the spirit of the game' and 'doesn't belong in 40k!' then you absolutely will see your group grow if you make it clear to them that they can either keep their opinions to themselves or they can leave.


Thanks. Yes. Thanks.

I'll always hate the "Because we have nerd hobbys we should accept all kind of socially inept individuals that destroy any chance of making our play groups larger and more friendly" mentality that many people have.

We are all adults. If you can't behave with respect, get lost.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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