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How do you feel about the double-turn?
10 - Fantastic rule, favorite part of AoS.
9
8
7 - This rule generally increases enjoyment of the game.
6
5 - Apathetic and/or feel the benefits are even with the downsides.
4
3 - This rule generally reduces enjoyment of the game.
2
1
0 - Awful rule, worst part of AoS.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Alpha strikes are absolutely worse in competitive AOS than in competitive 40k right now, with the exception of Ad Mech flyers, because terrain actually exists in 40k and it might as well not exist in AOS.

You can typically hide most of your army T1 in competitive 40k; in competitive AOS, you're often lucky if you can hide a single foot hero across your entire army. It's absolute night and day.

It's a rare competitive list these days in AOS that can't hit your opponent hard from the top of T1. That doesn't mean you necessarily want to take first (though lists that do want to take first are becoming more and more common, something you very rarely saw in AOS2), but most lists can do meaningful damage from the top of T1 if they do end up going first. All the ranged lists obviously do it, as well as things like Ironjaws that can double-move basically their entire army T1 and then charge afterward, so they're getting most of their melee army into you T1. Archaon lists get into your T1 too, etc etc. Some of these lists can be screened, but even then, you're losing your screens T1, and that's still significant.

The result is that your average AOS game is a lot bloodier on T1 than your average 40k game (again, with the exception of Ad Mech flyers, because they nullify the reason for less lethality in 40k, terrain). 40k would be bloodier on planet bowling ball, sure, but that isn't how 40k works now, and it is still how AOS works.

Less competitive AOS is very different, you still see lots of lists there that don't really get going till T2, but competitive AOS is very focused on hitting your opponent hard from T1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/22 23:20:31


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






It sounds like you aren't using enough terrain IMO. And as a side note, Ironjawz aren't charging their whole army turn 1 unless running a very specific build that is easily countered with proper deployment/screening. Having them run up and bash the screen now means they are sitting ducks for your entire army to hit them back. If that doesn't work then the lists weren't on the same level to begin with.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/23 01:18:21


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




No offense, but I question whether you've actually played a 3rd edition IJ list. A double cabbage list often has no reason *not* to smash both cabbages into you right away. Even if all they do is end up clearing your screens (and between the stomp-move-stomp and two cabbages activating one after another, they can actually smash through weak screens fairly effectively), great, that means you've got two buffed-up cabbages sitting on the edge of your deployment zone blocking you from moving up onto objectives that are each capable of charging into the meat of your army in your own charge phase (after both redeploying if necessary). That's the opposite of being sitting ducks.

Obviously it's rare that they're going to want to commit the whole army - more typically it'll be either the two cabbages or a cabbage plus some pigs - but the point is that you have to respect that threat or it'll blow you off the table. It's an extremely credible alpha strike and without a double turn it places the army on the receiving end massively on the back foot in terms of winning the game, even if all the IJ player accomplishes at the top of T1 is wiping your screens.

The game is a lot more front-loaded than it used to be. Pretty much every top-tier army can start wrecking you from the top of T1 if you're not careful, and some can wreck you even if you are careful. Armies designed to go first are much more common than they used to be. Your comments read like you're still stuck in 2nd edition where almost everyone wanted to go 2nd. That isn't the reality any more. More top lists now want to go first than want to go second. SoB? Want to go first to get on objectives and kick an objective where they want it. Morathi and the Bow Sneks? Wants to go first to alpha strike you with the sneks and get Morathi onto objectives, and to make sure Morathi lives another turn by not taking 3 wounds in the top of T1. Lumineth? Wants to go first to get buffs up and move up the castle. IJ? Wants to go first to put pressure on you. There are still some top lists that either don't care or actively want second, but they're in the minority now as opposed to the overwhelming majority like they used to be.

On terrain, nobody uses meaningful LOS-blocking terrain in AOS. You get like 8 round pieces of junk that if you're lucky maybe allow you to hide a foot character or two if you play the angles just right. I challenge you to show me a 3rd edition event that's had significant amount of LOS-blocking terrain, enough that you can hide significant portions of your army in deployment like is standard in 40k. Maybe they exist somewhere in the world, but it's certainly not anywhere near normal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/23 18:07:11


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Every third ed tournament I've been two has at least two woods on every table. Including the GT I'm at right now. It sounds like you are doing terrain wrong.

And if your entire army (minus screens) can't take down two Maw Crushas, maybe the problem is with the unit eh? Meanwhile, have to say the players getting two rounds of KO shooting to the face were having a GREAT time. You see the passion for AoS on their faces. Also funny how far back you walked the comment on charging the whole army in an attempt to disprove my argument.

Only alpha strike list here is using the bridge to teleport a unit of irondrakes and guess what? He's choosing to go second.

Double turn keeping down alpha strike lists is fiction, a claim made up to justify a mechanic no one would support if it wasn't written in the game to start.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/23 19:38:26


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Woods only obscure if the line you draw is longer than 3". That's why in practice it ends up being hard to hide more than small individual characters - with any unit of decent size it's typically extremely hard to prevent your opponent from drawing some angle to one of your models that doesn't meet the 3" test. Presumably this is why you ignored my actual question about how much you can hide and just repeated the "you're doing it wrong" nonsense. You typically cannot hide significant portions of your army on the terrain setups used in mainstream AOS events.

But we're obviously not going to agree here. I think it's a waste of time to discuss things further. If you aren't aware of the significant shift in top lists towards going first in AOS3 nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I am literally at a GT right now watching the games being played. So yeah, when you say something different than what I see right in front of me it's going to be difficult to believe.

And you still have provided no proof that the double is needed to combat alpha strikes. At this point I think there is none.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/23 21:57:51


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 auticus wrote:
Yeah you can activate in combat. But you can't move. You can't shoot. You can't cast. You are literally standing there for two full turns doing nothing but reacting and removing models.

And if I'm a shooty / mortal wound ranged min/max spam army and you are a melee army - I can guarantee you that when I double turn you my stuff is not in combat or will be as minimally in combat / you chewing on garbage units of mine as possible.


Well, you can move D6" with a command ability, and you can shoot with -1 to hit with a command ability, and any spells and abilities you've got up stay on during the opponent's second turn.

I had a particularly irritating double turn in my game against Skaven where he'd rolled 'everything in range is -1 to hit' with his screaming bell and that stayed on during my entire double turn

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






That's the thing though--you can choose not to take it. If it was mandatory that the winner of the initiative went first my opinion would be very different.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





TBH, that thread title should be "what if AoS was another game ?".

Changing the rules are always fine as long as all the players agree, but once you change them, it's not the same game anymore. For a good reason, since the rules are part of the experience.

If it's bad for your group and your group agrees to it, change them, everyone is happy.

Just don't try to force it on those who are happy to play with the game as it is.

That's pretty much the debate on...all games, really.


I even changed the rules of Warhammer Battle V8 so that players alternate during each phase instead of each turn. It was fun for the players. But at that time, we didn't play at Warhammer Battle V8, in the end. Just a modified version of it for fun.

That's the point of games : having fun. And not everyone finds fun in the same things.

My two cents here.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It's not really "what if it was another game" its "what if this 1 rule wasn't in the game"

Yes 3.0 introduces a few more things to let the player do during their turn, however I think its very telling that GW hasn't put the doubleturn into 40K. They know that as soon as ranged armies hit the table (and 40K is a lot more ranged heavy for all forces); the double turn becomes insanely powerful. Heck it would be for close combat if it weren't for the alternating nature in which they do it in AoS.

And that's a huge issue, one which is somewhat hidden because not every single army can do super ranged power at present. However we are steadily seeing more armies getting ranged options - Slaanesh in the last year got several new ranged dedicated units to add to their roster - something they've never had before outside of a few spells and leader models.






Another thing to consider is just how dividing this rule is. From 2.0 to 3.0 its one of the biggest discussions and it really splits the community up into those who love it and those who hate it. If anything it dominates so much it actually masks some other problems from getting proper attention because any problem that arises is often made worse by the doubleturn mechanic and then the discussion gets distracted onto that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 13:07:11


A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Overread wrote:

Another thing to consider is just how dividing this rule is. From 2.0 to 3.0 its one of the biggest discussions and it really splits the community up into those who love it and those who hate it. If anything it dominates so much it actually masks some other problems from getting proper attention because any problem that arises is often made worse by the doubleturn mechanic and then the discussion gets distracted onto that.


Depends where it's dividing. On social medias, it's easy to make a lot of noise with a handful of people. That doesn't mean it happens in the same proportions when playing.

That's why I find funny people dismissing GW's polls because it's the industry that makes it and when it's here, it should be more meaningful ? Just looking at the numbers and how the choices people can take on the poll, it means what exactly ? That less a hundred people you don't even know if they're playing games at all choose amongst artificially ten graded choices that may or may not translate what they truly think about the matter ? At least GW polls do have more significant numbers in terms of representation of the community.

To me, it's mostly an ego matter. People with very clear opinions on if the rule should exist or not and not accepting any other option. You're for the rule or against the rule. And to me, that's not the majority of the players at all. This thread is more a question on who has the truth about the vision on how the game should be played to be fun, TBH.

For example, intervenants like Auticus and Ninthmusketeer are pretty obvious where they stand about this question in particular. I think it's linked to the fact balance in a game is very important to them, like a key design of a game - while it doesn't have the case, in reality. It's just how they see what a game should be.


To me, double turn isn't a troublesome mechanic. It's part of the rules of the game and as long as both players agree to it, it works just fine. Sure, you can always blame double turn for your loss, like you blame your dice when they roll on a "1" when you needed a "6". That's human nature. You can also just laugh and roll with it, enjoying all the hot times of the game (it's not just made of double turns, most of the time).

To summarize what I mean is it's mostly the mindset you have as a player that matters rather than just a rule in particular. Fun isn't ruined by a rule in itself ; it's how the rule is perceived that's the key of your reaction.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 13:49:54


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Overread wrote:

Another thing to consider is just how dividing this rule is. From 2.0 to 3.0 its one of the biggest discussions and it really splits the community up into those who love it and those who hate it. If anything it dominates so much it actually masks some other problems from getting proper attention because any problem that arises is often made worse by the doubleturn mechanic and then the discussion gets distracted onto that.


Or rather, people who hate it, a much much larger number of people who don't seem to talk about it much, and the people who feel like they have to defend it because it's one of the 3 things trolls who dont actually play the game but love to hate on it love to trot out.

It's

1 - GW KILLED the old world they DESTROYED my childhood they LITERALLY DELETED EVERY ARMY FROM THE GAMEEEEEEEEEE

2 - I dont like this one model from this one army therefore the whole game is stoopid for babies dumb-dumb haha fish elves haha kangaroo riders I liked when WHFB was generic and I knew instantly what every single thing was because I'd seen it in every other fantasy setting that exists

3 - double turn lel

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Fun isn't ruined by a rule in itself ; it's how the rule is perceived that's the key of your reaction.


Yeah no. Fun can easily be ruined by a rule. If the rule presents and crafts a negative play experience for the player, the rule itself is what caused it.

Yes we can step back and go "oh i'll just have fun anyway" - which is what a lot of people do. And thats great for them, but not why I am interested in investing $1000 or more into a product.

The social experience is not the first thing for me when it comes to games. I'm interested in games for the game - to pit myself vs another player at a game and employ in-game strategies and tactics to win the day. Not show up where my list is auto-lose against my opponents because I failed to chase the meta and we're just playing for lolz and beers. I can do that without lugging around a ton of models or investing $1000 into it.

Just like the game of golf or baseball may be fun for a lot of people. To me I would never touch it because those games do nothing for me to excite me.

Wargames excited me to dedicate over 30 years of my life to them. Certain rules and bad balance in Age of Sigmar made me after a few years of really trying to champion it - drop it and purge my collection.

I think it's linked to the fact balance in a game is very important to them, like a key design of a game - while it doesn't have the case, in reality. It's just how they see what a game should be.


Balance being the most important factor to a player IS a case in reality just as players who are there more for the social aspect IS a case in reality for that player.

Yes to me a game should be balanced. Especially a game that costs over $1000 to play fully.

Otherwise you're playing a game like monopoly where the car gets to go 3 times in a row every turn and start with $5000 more money because its a car and cars go fast. And if you paint it red now it gets to go 4 times in a row every turn.

No one would play that game. Had Age of Sigmar been a game released by literally ANYONE else on the planet, it would have flopped. The thing that propels Age of Sigmar forward isn't its rules - its the fact that it has a built in player base of tens of thousands that don't want to lose on their investment (legacy players still playing) and then the players that came after that that want a game that they know will always have players playing. That is the one thing Age of Sigmar dominates any other fantasy game on the market with, much like world of warcraft being a juggernaut for all this time because its players don't want to lose that time they invested, and they want a game they know others are playing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 14:31:51


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 auticus wrote:


No one would play that game. Had Age of Sigmar been a game released by literally ANYONE else on the planet, it would have flopped. The thing that propels Age of Sigmar forward isn't its rules - its the fact that it has a built in player base of tens of thousands that don't want to lose on their investment (legacy players still playing) and then the players that came after that that want a game that they know will always have players playing. That is the one thing Age of Sigmar dominates any other fantasy game on the market with, much like world of warcraft being a juggernaut for all this time because its players don't want to lose that time they invested, and they want a game they know others are playing.


...I really don't know how true this statement is. Legacy WHFB players seem like the most likely category of people to vehemently hate AOS and try to tell anyone who expresses interest in it to not play it, and we know at time of cancellation WHFB accounted for about 10% of GW's sales overall, so the playerbase was much, much smaller than 40k, which is almost undeniably a nostalgia-driven juggernaut of a system.

Most people who like AOS in my experience are people who looked at AOS miniatures and went "HOLY gak".

IMO, the incredible aesthetic appeal of the model range is what draws people to AOS, and it has relatively little to do with legacy players from WHFB.

Most WHFB armies at this point would be relatively difficult to translate into AOS. If you played Vampire Counts, Skaven, Lizardmen, or Chaos Warriors/Daemons you could probably plug your army right in to AOS, but its not like 40k where basically any army you own from later than RT/2nd ed is probably still a playable army.

Heck, I play an army of Rogue Trader harlequins in 40k. Theyre still WYSIWYG outside of just a couple of models. Most of the models are from 1990, 31 years old.

There's definitely an aspect of 'if a game is popular at a location, that's the game you play' but people got into AOS for the looks of the miniatures and the community really seems to be built from almost nothing, with legacy WHFB players being only a fraction.

in my group of 40k players, there's only one single person who's very first 40k experience was 9th edition, and only 5 whose first was 8th, out of roughly 50 active players.

In my group of AOS players, there's me and one other friend who are people who played WHFB at all, about 10 people who joined with first, about 10 people who joined with 2nd, and 3 so far that have joined with 3rd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 14:29:51


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




This rule is the biggest issue I find.

I think nearly everyone has sour on the rule, and I have never met anyone that was particularly enthusiastic about it.

With the general look of the army’s it’s been a huge bane, since I think the question I get ask most by players sorta in the know is weather they removed the rule yet or not.

And new players often sour on it, and with a huge amount of recruitment being from friends. They often just take other players with them.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Most people who like AOS in my experience are people who looked at AOS miniatures and went "HOLY gak".


Yep and if Joe's Game Shop produced Age of Sigmar with the exact same miniatures, I am betting that they'd sell a lot of miniatures because the models are great... but that they'd be used in other games. You take away the pre-built community and the game falls on its face.

I know where I was, most of the AOS players had also not played WHFB (because most of the whfb players were not interested in anything AOS had to offer and still aren't) but invested in AOS because there was a massive online presence and community and locally they could find games wherever. It feeds itself.

Now yes I realize none of this is provable (from both sides). We can only drop anecdotes. My most recent experience with this involved a few games over the last few years where we had a lot of interest but no one wanted to jump in for fear no one else would play.

Conquest - I managed to get us to over 20 players and once player base started growing it was a lot easier, but there was a lot of hold out saying "I love the models, they are beautiful, but I dont want to invest a ton of money into a game that no one will play - thats why I play AOS".

Obviously my experience is not the world's experience but my experience colors my opinion on this topic and as someone that was very invested in promoting games for many many years, this pattern was something that I have seen regularly for over two decades. Also as a games developer myself, this is something that is known in marketing design. (this also colors my experience on this topic)

If Games Workshop were to release AOS 3.5 and double turn was gone, there would be some minor grumbling for sure, but that would be it. The players that love double turn would still keep on playing AOS, most happily so. The players that hate double turn, which usually in every poll I have ever seen out number those that love it, would also have some interest again.

And yeah the fact 40k never put this in their system to me is telling. I'm still of the opinion that double turn was an accident that came from writing the rules on a napkin in the pub (and thats not me being sarcastic, the AOS rules were written on a napkin in the pub when it first came out - as stated by the developers in 2015 lol) and that just accidentally carrying over. (I can't prove that double turn was not intentional - it just seems to me to not be something anyone would actually intentionally do)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:17:37


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

My impression is that many of the people who like the double turn tend to be

1) Super casual and really do not care who wins or loses ever

2) Competitive but in an area where they are a cut above everyone else. So the doubleturn actually gives them some challenge when it happens against them.

3) Those who have not yet had it used against them; or if it was it was either badly timed (very first or last moments and so didn't make a huge different to the game state); or poorly used by the person using it.


Those who I see who tend to hate/dislike it tend to be those who

1) Have a more flat level of difficulty at their local level. Ergo everyone is more or less on the same skill standing

2) Have been on the receiving end of it and lost as a result

3) Have won more than one or two matches with it and found the wins hollow because their opponent basically didn't do anything.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





People actually like AOS models?

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
People actually like AOS models?

No, it's all a joke and people spend thousands of dollars ironically while playing the XIth age.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I can somewhat back up auticus' anecdotal experience with my own. In my town, I built the AoS group. First to get in to it, started advertising on facebook pages, getting group meets going and building up the community.

Most of it is people who are either never played WHFB, or had played 40k. A few WHFB players came back, but for the most part the ones that didn't are the longbeard grumblers, understandably not wanting to get in to the game that killed their favorite.

Once people knew there was other people playing a game that they know is going to be supported by it's company, it's very easy to get people to invest in buying and playing with the fantastic models. It was surprising how fast my community grew within four or so years, given how hard it can be to buy in to games like this for most people. Going from AoS not existing in my area, to having 20 people in a small town playing it regularly and maintaining an active discord group where talks of hobby and gaming go on daily.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:34:48


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 auticus wrote:
Most people who like AOS in my experience are people who looked at AOS miniatures and went "HOLY gak".



I know where I was, most of the AOS players had also not played WHFB (because most of the whfb players were not interested in anything AOS had to offer and still aren't) but invested in AOS because there was a massive online presence and community and locally they could find games wherever. It feeds itself.


And that existing playerbase that didnt play WHFB and does play AOS came from...the air? summoned from the warp? Everyone simultaneously started playing all at once because of the existing community that they were spontaneously forming right then and from then on the community existed so you could chalk it up to momentum?

This is my point: You cant chalk up AOS' popularity to momentum the same way you can with 40k. People who start to play 40k now OVERWHELMINGLY are getting BACK in as opposed to getting in for the very first time, because the last time there was a solid feeder pipeline from 'general nerdy-dom' into the 40k universe it was like...I guess the Space Marine video game, but I'd be much more likely to point to the original Dawn of War and DoW2.

AOS started off by very heavily alienating the existing nostalgic fanbase for WHFB that was left. Theyre currently the most vocal haters of AOS out there, and I dont think they ever wont be. The AOS fanbase just started existing a couple of years ago, basically in the middle of 1.0 when the GHB finally dropped.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:37:03


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






In my areas case, it comes from 40k players disgruntled with 40k, or Warmahordes players upset that their game's pretty much dead (in my area, especially so). Or new hobbiests who love the models and want to play.

For the most part, it's people who were in to some form of modelling hobby at one point before, be it a GW game or not.

Because it has the GW name attached to it, it can pick up momentum quite quickly compared to other, smaller companies. The two ex-Warmahordes tournament players in my group have both said that they got out because they were sick of PP, and knew that GW would at least support the game, even if the actual gameplay isn't as good or satisfying for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:39:32


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
People actually like AOS models?


Absolutely. You cant have a miniature reveal now without the AOS minis absolutely clapping the cheeks off the ridiculously safe and boring 40k minis.

"Here's a space marine...he's a different space marine, you can tell, because the other one had a belt and a skelleton on his storm shield and this one has a sash and just a skull on his storm shield...tune in next week for the exciting release of...more space marines, with short sleeves...these ones have swords, unlike other space marines, which have different swords..."

"Coming soon to AOS, we've got old classic units you know like skeletons and vampires and zombies rendered in stunning HD but also here's this giant badass monster-vampire, and here's this crazy giant zelda BOTW lion centaur, and here's this Wukong the Monkey King elf archer, and here's a classic fire-breathing dragon but also a bunch of weird hobgoblin slavers riding on the back of a crawling lanky troll thing..."

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





 the_scotsman wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Most people who like AOS in my experience are people who looked at AOS miniatures and went "HOLY gak".



I know where I was, most of the AOS players had also not played WHFB (because most of the whfb players were not interested in anything AOS had to offer and still aren't) but invested in AOS because there was a massive online presence and community and locally they could find games wherever. It feeds itself.


And that existing playerbase that didnt play WHFB and does play AOS came from...the air? summoned from the warp? Everyone simultaneously started playing all at once because of the existing community that they were spontaneously forming right then and from then on the community existed so you could chalk it up to momentum?

This is my point: You cant chalk up AOS' popularity to momentum the same way you can with 40k. People who start to play 40k now OVERWHELMINGLY are getting BACK in as opposed to getting in for the very first time, because the last time there was a solid feeder pipeline from 'general nerdy-dom' into the 40k universe it was like...I guess the Space Marine video game, but I'd be much more likely to point to the original Dawn of War and DoW2.

AOS started off by very heavily alienating the existing nostalgic fanbase for WHFB that was left. Theyre currently the most vocal haters of AOS out there, and I dont think they ever wont be. The AOS fanbase just started existing a couple of years ago, basically in the middle of 1.0 when the GHB finally dropped.


When "official points" came out, we went from about 12 people playing AOS wiht my azyr comp system to about 12 people playing AOS with official points. And of those 12 people playing, 8 or so were legacy players that played in my whfb events. Of those legacy players I think 2 or 3 still play.

Of your statement, I can agree heavily with one thing: no matter the size of the player base, not having "official points" will kill you harder than anything.

The AOS players did not manifest out of thin air. They started getting interested... because there were others playing. If there were no people playing AOS, those people would not have dropped $1000 on their armies to start playing. Had Joes Games Shop produced AOS with AOS models, it would still be as a game stillborn to this day. The models would be used in other games and Joes Games Shop would be turning a tidy profit but not on its rules or game presence.

That is in my area 100% fact.

Without the community you'd have no AOS. I'd stake everything I own on that. People aren't going "oh wow AOS rules are awesome" in general... they go "oh wow the models are awesome and there are always people playing, so I feel safe with my investment". For everyone of those I hear, there are a few other games which are great rules wise that I hear "oh wow the rules are awesome and the models are neat but no one is playing so I don't feel safe investing in that."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:45:34


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






People are literally excited rn because a new 40k miniature is a custode who looks just like every other custode but he's running, and we've never had a custode miniature in any pose except "standing there holding a thing."

People are excited that one miniature is being released in a running pose. This is "Cool News".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Most people who like AOS in my experience are people who looked at AOS miniatures and went "HOLY gak".



I know where I was, most of the AOS players had also not played WHFB (because most of the whfb players were not interested in anything AOS had to offer and still aren't) but invested in AOS because there was a massive online presence and community and locally they could find games wherever. It feeds itself.


And that existing playerbase that didnt play WHFB and does play AOS came from...the air? summoned from the warp? Everyone simultaneously started playing all at once because of the existing community that they were spontaneously forming right then and from then on the community existed so you could chalk it up to momentum?

This is my point: You cant chalk up AOS' popularity to momentum the same way you can with 40k. People who start to play 40k now OVERWHELMINGLY are getting BACK in as opposed to getting in for the very first time, because the last time there was a solid feeder pipeline from 'general nerdy-dom' into the 40k universe it was like...I guess the Space Marine video game, but I'd be much more likely to point to the original Dawn of War and DoW2.

AOS started off by very heavily alienating the existing nostalgic fanbase for WHFB that was left. Theyre currently the most vocal haters of AOS out there, and I dont think they ever wont be. The AOS fanbase just started existing a couple of years ago, basically in the middle of 1.0 when the GHB finally dropped.


When "official points" came out, we went from about 12 people playing AOS wiht my azyr comp system to about 12 people playing AOS with official points. And of those 12 people playing, 8 or so were legacy players that played in my whfb events. Of those legacy players I think 2 or 3 still play.


AH, OK, so you are PERSONALLY taking credit for AOS existing in your area, because without your genius points system it would never have gotten started, and it's just an enormous mystery where any other AOS playgroup comes from (they probably heard about your incredible Azyr comp system)

gotcha gotcha. Do you like medals, or should I just kiss your boot?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:46:55


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 the_scotsman wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
People actually like AOS models?


Absolutely. You cant have a miniature reveal now without the AOS minis absolutely clapping the cheeks off the ridiculously safe and boring 40k minis.

"Here's a space marine...he's a different space marine, you can tell, because the other one had a belt and a skelleton on his storm shield and this one has a sash and just a skull on his storm shield...tune in next week for the exciting release of...more space marines, with short sleeves...these ones have swords, unlike other space marines, which have different swords..."

"Coming soon to AOS, we've got old classic units you know like skeletons and vampires and zombies rendered in stunning HD but also here's this giant badass monster-vampire, and here's this crazy giant zelda BOTW lion centaur, and here's this Wukong the Monkey King elf archer, and here's a classic fire-breathing dragon but also a bunch of weird hobgoblin slavers riding on the back of a crawling lanky troll thing..."


I have to agree! AoS is REALLY getting a lions share of awesome new models that are exciting!

40K feels like its stuck. Marines are same old - Xenos are a mix of either doing really well recently (Necrons); really well historically (Tyranids) or totally forgotten (Eldar/Tau anything that isn't a suit).
You just get the feeling that the creative freedom is either not there or the energy isn't. Even armies that are pretty much complete, like Tyranids, should be seeing new updated models like Gaunts showing off the newest plastic casting details.

Then again its the opposite of Black Library - 40K gets a LOT more exciting books whilst AoS feels like its getting one or two but is mostly getting a lot of shorts and new faces and untested writers. They've really not yet recovered from losing Jose Reynolds as he put out quality and volume!

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





 the_scotsman wrote:
People are literally excited rn because a new 40k miniature is a custode who looks just like every other custode but he's running, and we've never had a custode miniature in any pose except "standing there holding a thing."

People are excited that one miniature is being released in a running pose. This is "Cool News".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Most people who like AOS in my experience are people who looked at AOS miniatures and went "HOLY gak".



I know where I was, most of the AOS players had also not played WHFB (because most of the whfb players were not interested in anything AOS had to offer and still aren't) but invested in AOS because there was a massive online presence and community and locally they could find games wherever. It feeds itself.


And that existing playerbase that didnt play WHFB and does play AOS came from...the air? summoned from the warp? Everyone simultaneously started playing all at once because of the existing community that they were spontaneously forming right then and from then on the community existed so you could chalk it up to momentum?

This is my point: You cant chalk up AOS' popularity to momentum the same way you can with 40k. People who start to play 40k now OVERWHELMINGLY are getting BACK in as opposed to getting in for the very first time, because the last time there was a solid feeder pipeline from 'general nerdy-dom' into the 40k universe it was like...I guess the Space Marine video game, but I'd be much more likely to point to the original Dawn of War and DoW2.

AOS started off by very heavily alienating the existing nostalgic fanbase for WHFB that was left. Theyre currently the most vocal haters of AOS out there, and I dont think they ever wont be. The AOS fanbase just started existing a couple of years ago, basically in the middle of 1.0 when the GHB finally dropped.


When "official points" came out, we went from about 12 people playing AOS wiht my azyr comp system to about 12 people playing AOS with official points. And of those 12 people playing, 8 or so were legacy players that played in my whfb events. Of those legacy players I think 2 or 3 still play.


AH, OK, so you are PERSONALLY taking credit for AOS existing in your area, because without your genius points system it would never have gotten started, and it's just an enormous mystery where any other AOS playgroup comes from (they probably heard about your incredible Azyr comp system)

gotcha gotcha. Do you like medals, or should I just kiss your boot?



I love the good faith conversations that can be had here. And how fast they degenerate into the trash you just posted

Yeah buddy. You got it 100%

Yeah but no. In 2015 my group was the only group playing in the city because it had a points system but a lot of people held off AOS until official points came out. My group was our local games workshop store, I was working alongside the manager of the store to promote the game. THat has nothing to do with me that has to do with people want official points.

Once Official Points came out, the bulk of the playerbase came out to try it. The legacy whfb players played it for about 4-6 months (one of our campaigns) and then dropped it altogether. The remaining attendance in 2016 was about 8 people per average on campaign days. In WHFB days that number was 24 - 32 players on average stretching back from 2008 - 2015. I know because I was the one running the games workshop events and had taken attendance regularly for years.

Over the course of 2016-2018 it slowly grew because others were playing it. In 2019 - my last year - we had gotten to about 18 people at campaign days. They have about 12-18 players over there today playing regularly. Its still far less than our whfb days of 24-32 but 18 is still respectable and strong - and the other games we try to promote can't even get their boots on the ground because players want other players playing. That was MY ENTIRE POINT.

The tournament players I know (anecdotal) play AOS because they can go to adepticon and get 180 player tournaments. Thats their main draw. Not the rules. The 180 player tournament. No other game can touch that. That again was MY ENTIRE POINT.

Where the rest of that gibberish and assault came out of I have no idea or where that turned into me taking personal credit for AOS doing well is even rooted in.

If you could keep your comments on the topic and not on the ad hominem bullcrap that would be great.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:58:06


 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






 the_scotsman wrote:


AH, OK, so you are PERSONALLY taking credit for AOS existing in your area, because without your genius points system it would never have gotten started, and it's just an enormous mystery where any other AOS playgroup comes from (they probably heard about your incredible Azyr comp system)

gotcha gotcha. Do you like medals, or should I just kiss your boot?


I think you need to chill out.

He's saying that when AoS didn't have points, he had people playing based off a points system he made.

When official points came out, people continued to play with points.

Nobody in my area played AoS without points either, it didn't exist. We didn't have people willing to put in the time to create points, or look for systems with points.

My group only started to exist after points did, and myself and others put effort in to playing with a group.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 15:58:12


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Yeah, my area neither. Nobody played, at all, until the official points came out with the generals handbook.

And then the playerbase suddenly existed.

My point is, you can't chalk that up to 'there was an existing playerbase and people only joined because the game had momentum' because...it didnt. That's literally the opposite of that. That's the game starting from nothing, and people joining and playing it primarily because of ongoing support and releases.

Maybe if you have a really really short-term view of things you can chalk new players joining up now to momentum, but personally I think that's pretty silly considering just how short a span of time there's been between that first GHB and now when you compare it to a system like 40k or DnD or WoW where youve got people with like 10-20 year histories with the game who are just continuously jumping in and out.

The vast vast majority of new people I see starting up AOS are starting up AOS because they saw an army that looked awesome, and they wanted to play with that. The 3 new people we've had in the last couple months came in for the new vampires, the new elves and the new hobgoblin ork guys.

Also, sorry for offending you, Auticus. I just like poking fun at people sometimes, it's a bad habit and I ought not to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 16:05:47


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Maybe it's poor wording to say momentum. It can't be said AoS ran off momentum at the start, it relied on GW's general fanbase to carry the game along since really, it's hard to say it even existed until 2.0. It's not really momentum when you're sweating and cursing and trying to drag a dead body along behind you and get other people to help you drag it, hoping a day comes when the people who should be carrying it come around and do their damn jon.

But now, it's for sure momentum and the force of GW being GW... and the models are fantastic. The models got me buying late 1.0/early 2.0 for sure. It's a game you can probably find people playing anywhere these days, despite the issues people have with the rules.

Monopoly has rules issues and people still play that, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 16:44:38


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
 
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