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Poll
How do you feel about the double-turn?
10 - Fantastic rule, favorite part of AoS.
9
8
7 - This rule generally increases enjoyment of the game.
6
5 - Apathetic and/or feel the benefits are even with the downsides.
4
3 - This rule generally reduces enjoyment of the game.
2
1
0 - Awful rule, worst part of AoS.

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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Feel free to share your thoughts in-thread!

In before 'only unskilled players lose to the double': no, only unskilled players lose WITH the double.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

I don't hate it as much now that there is more equitable access to reducing drops.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Still don't care one way or the other.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

ccs wrote:
Still don't care one way or the other.


Same here, but went with 7, because I feel it does add a dynamic to the game that you can’t plan for which is fine by me. I’m not all in on it, but I can understand it can be a negative play experience against some builds.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/18 01:09:29


"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Every time a player chants the mantra "I *need* this double turn to win!" I die a little inside. And then when they actually get the double turn, I fully die.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





I won't touch a game that employs something like this.

Its bad enough standing there for an entire turn doing nothing but removing models. Doing nothing but removing models for two full turns without really being able to respond is quite simply not something I will do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/18 16:30:41


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Procrastinator extraordinaire





Edinburgh, UK

I've only played one game of AoS 3rd, but I dislike the mechanic as it can be incredibly swingy. You could be marginally losing a game but if you do happen to be the victim of the double turn, it adds insult to injury where you cannot respond effectively to someone and just lose outright. I went for 3, that may change as I play more than just watch.

   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





As a bonesplitterz purist, I’ll take any benefit I can get. Double turn is really a big equalizer in my eyes.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

I've yet to play a game of 3.0, so my opinion doesn't likely amount to much.

However, I'll just chime in with the fact that, when my store was still playing 2.0 I never once had a problem with finding an opponent willing to house-rule it that we just don't do the double-turn thing.

Even in the rules-as-written, I believe that NOT having a double-turn is still very much a possibility... so simply house-ruling that you NEVER have one isn't even changing the game very much.

Again: I've yet to play 3.0, so take my contribution with a grain of salt, but I would be quite surprised if the same thing won't happen with 3.0 in my store (and possibly elsewhere).

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






It has mattered very, very little in the games of 3.0 i have played, but I will say that I have yet to face an opponent with an appreciable amount of shooting - the armies i've played as and against so far (Gloomspite, Idoneth, Ironjaws, Stormcast, Cities, Skaven, Sylvaneth, and Gravelords) were all very predominantly melee and magic focused, and as such the double turn has really only meant double movement.

I went in incredibly leery of the mechanic, and while i wouldnt say it made zero difference at all (the most critical double-turn to happen so far was a turn 4top of 5 double turn where Yndrasta as the last major enemy model in my opponent's army didnt get to really do much between top of 4 and bottom of 5, while if she had been able to move shoot and charge top of 5 she could possibly have done more to finish off a bunch of my wounded models) it hasnt made so much difference that it felt like 'wow, this really turned the game.'

If anything, its just been a moment of uncertainty. and the biggest impacts of double turn ive seen so far have been my opponents getting htem and going super hard trying to capitalize and leaving themselves exposed.

I can definitely see how the mechanic could feel like absolute cancer vs an army like lumineth or karadon tho.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






You've been lucky so far, to not be on the receiving end of Stormcast shooting castles, Skaven shooting, or Cities artillery/shooting double turns.

The army from that list you've played against with the dirtiest of non-shooting double turns is the Ironjawz. Built, buffed and launched at the enemy properly, their faction ability can just tear through whole armies.

The mechanic is fine in an environment where nobody really plays hardcore shooting, or the current 3.0 flavor of mega-monster-mash. When people are coming to play hard ball that's when it gets extremely unpleasant.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Yep where I was playing, double turn ended games. It was min / max shooting or max magic or things like the old kunnin rukk formation pushing out if memory calls 150 shots per turn then double turned would be 300 shots without a response.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 19:07:18


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Thadin wrote:
You've been lucky so far, to not be on the receiving end of Stormcast shooting castles, Skaven shooting, or Cities artillery/shooting double turns.

The army from that list you've played against with the dirtiest of non-shooting double turns is the Ironjawz. Built, buffed and launched at the enemy properly, their faction ability can just tear through whole armies.

The mechanic is fine in an environment where nobody really plays hardcore shooting, or the current 3.0 flavor of mega-monster-mash. When people are coming to play hard ball that's when it gets extremely unpleasant.


Yeah it seems like a mechanic youd have to be really, really careful about not designing into stuff that makes it miserable.

And we all know how famously careful GW is...

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

More than half are neutral or positive on the rule, with only a minority (26 votes to 20) being negative on it, and a relative minority (10 votes, less than 25% of the total) actually rating it awful (who I assume are people who have never actually played AoS )

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Can you explain the reasoning behind that assumption?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a fun rephrase:

More than half are neutral or negative on the rule, with only a minority (32 votes to 14) being positive on it, and a relative minority (4 votes, less than 10% of the total) actually rating it fantastic (who I assume are people who have never actually played AoS ).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/19 19:24:30


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





0-3 (negative) = 18
4-6 (neutral) = 17
7-10 (positive) = 10

So... as usual when this question is asked its a pretty even divide between those that hate it, those that don't care either way, and then the people that love it are trailing behind by a fair amount.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





I would consider 2 awful as well, just not "the worst part of AoS". (and likewise 9 would also be fantastic, just not the favorite)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 19:59:14


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

In industry feedback surveys, the default assumption is that neutral and positive feedback indicates no change is necessary, whereas negative feedback indicates that change is necessary, hence why I grouped them together (and why that cute "rewrite" doesn't actually work).


This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Ah, an industry perspective. Can you explain why industries assume customers who do not like a feature to not use the product? You asserted as such, and are defending your post by saying it uses the industry standards, so either that assumption is part of it or you are applying a double standard.

Also let's throw in that over a third of customers being unhappy with a feature is considered a sign of serious problems, especially if they outnumber customers who actually like it in both number and severity. Those are sales being lost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 21:28:51


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I mean, i voted 5 because in my experience 'the benefits are roughly equal to the downsides' as you put in the poll there. I'd probably have bumped my vote up to a positive number if I'd known that 'there are positives and negatives' was going to be interpreted as a negative response to the poll.

Just my two cents there. im not an expert nor a competitive player, and the folks I know who are into competitive aos do seem to like the rule.

From a game design perspective I can see where it does offset the traditional 'first turn advantage' by introducing an element of risk and may actually reduce lethality of the game through decision making processes that are separate from raw stats, in the same way that Apocalypse's damage system reduces lethality because putting enough firepower into a unit to GUARANTEE its death means actually putting a lot more resources into it than is strictly necessary to kill the unit with normal average rolling.

But, if you put in a bunch of mechanics that are abusable through the rule, it does have massive potential for abuse because it does severely limit an opponent's chance to respond. id be curious to see how a 'no double turns' AOS tournament would shake out personally.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






To be clear, my rephrase was not intended to express that as a legitimate viewpoint but rather highlight the absurdity of lumping neutral people to one side or the other on a matter to which there is very clearly more nuance than 'good' or 'bad'. And my above post is to criticize his claim of 'industry standards' as a defense when it is quite clearly not a standard he applied, with the implication that he is not conducting the discussion in good faith and so demanding the same in return is hypocritical.

Personally I think pushing the first initiative roll to round three and/or removing it from matched play would make for a good compromise that rounds out the more abusive instances while keeping it around for where it adds the most value.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ah, an industry perspective. Can you explain why industries assume customers who do not like a feature to not use the product? You asserted as such, and are defending your post by saying it uses the industry standards, so either that assumption is part of it or you are applying a double standard.



Huh?? I have no idea what you're talking about or trying to say.

Also let's throw in that over a third of customers being unhappy with a feature is considered a sign of serious problems, especially if they outnumber customers who actually like it in both number and severity. Those are sales being lost.


You can't please everyone, there will always be some percentage of customers who won't like something. As it stands a clear majority are indifferent or in support of the rule in question, you have to weigh risk vs reward, theres little point in making adjustments to appease the 1/3rd that dislike it if it risks alienating the other 2/3rds that are already on board.

FYI, I voted 5 on the survey - Im indifferent, its a rule no better or worse than any other. It creates a specific gameplay experience, and that experience is valid, as well as being an intended feature and experience of the game design. It simply "is", and thats ok.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Eh, it's pretty straightforward: GW can make a zero-cost change by adding a line of text to the next GHB that removes random initiative from that battlepack. They then make money in sales from people who were previously kept away by the rule. People who dislike the change, who we can see are outnumbered anyways, don't have an alternative wargame to turn to. There is no competing product with random initiative. It is a simple choice between making more money or less money, one of many where GW has chosen the latter.

But we've known that for a long time now, the point of the thread is to see if the new edition has altered the spread of opinions on the matter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/20 05:29:42


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Rihgu wrote:
Every time a player chants the mantra "I *need* this double turn to win!" I die a little inside. And then when they actually get the double turn, I fully die.


Well the way GW games works if you know who goes first in each turn you know generally who wins after you know lists and who goes first.

Often can even predict points quite accurately. Winner is easy prediction short of silly random dice roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/20 08:31:09


2021 painted/bought: 857/1043 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





tneva82 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Every time a player chants the mantra "I *need* this double turn to win!" I die a little inside. And then when they actually get the double turn, I fully die.


Well the way GW games works if you know who goes first in each turn you know generally who wins after you know lists and who goes first.

Often can even predict points quite accurately. Winner is easy prediction short of silly random dice roll.


You keep saying this but I don't think you've ever proven it.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Eh, it's pretty straightforward: GW can make a zero-cost change by adding a line of text to the next GHB that removes random initiative from that battlepack. They then make money in sales from people who were previously kept away by the rule. People who dislike the change, who we can see are outnumbered anyways, don't have an alternative wargame to turn to. There is no competing product with random initiative. It is a simple choice between making more money or less money, one of many where GW has chosen the latter.


Your perspective is just truly bizarre. I highly doubt this one specific rule has kept anyone away from Age of Sigmar - anyone who says so I think is probably not telling the whole story and using the rule as an excuse to justify a much more complex and nuanced dislike of the game as a whole due to a variety of factors. Likewise I highly doubt anyone shops for wargames based on any one specific rule like you seem to have insinuated here (and there are in fact other wargames with random initiative, as well as plenty of other games with/without random initiative that could be played instead of AoS if the pro-double turn crowd decides to walk from the game in protest or whatever). You also assume that changing the one rule will result in more money generated - but saying that the double turn is an "awful rule - the worst part of AoS" doesn't translate to "I refuse to purchase products or play this game until the rule is changed, and when changed will begin purchasing AoS products". I think the attrition test in 40k is an awful rule and the worst part of 40k, but that doesn't mean that I'm not spending $500+ in any given month on 40k products. Despite the joke I made earlier about people who gave the rule 0's never having palyed AoS before, I'm willing to bet that a number of those people are in fact regular players and consumers of AoS product already, and that changing the rule will not change their purchasing habits.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I tried to play their game last time this argument came up. Not from tneva82 specifically but another with that belief.

I posted the lists from a game I had actually played where there was no double turn seized, stated who had gone first, and was interested not just in the end result, but seeing peoples reasoning for thinking why it was who won. Turns out, none of the people who were heatedly arguing that no double turn = determine who wins just by list and first turn, took the challenge to totally prove us wrong.

I had some more games/lists I could have posted, but it seemed like they weren't interested in that thought exercise.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Eh, it's pretty straightforward: GW can make a zero-cost change by adding a line of text to the next GHB that removes random initiative from that battlepack. They then make money in sales from people who were previously kept away by the rule. People who dislike the change, who we can see are outnumbered anyways, don't have an alternative wargame to turn to. There is no competing product with random initiative. It is a simple choice between making more money or less money, one of many where GW has chosen the latter.

But we've known that for a long time now, the point of the thread is to see if the new edition has altered the spread of opinions on the matter.


You know what?
I dont want to play a game with a player who's so stupid who'd be the one buying that GHB because of such a single line of text.

Outside the tourney scene (wich I don't play & don't give a squigs dropping about) you don't need GW to hold your hand & spoon feed such a rule. Because guess what?
All it takes is a discussion with your opponent.
And if you decide not to use the rule? Well, you've simply taken a shortcut to a result the dice could've given you anyways.

Some people hate the idea of such swingyness.
Some people like it. Some love it.
Some just cling to the position that "its the rules"....
Me? I don't feel this rule ADDS much to the game - except another dose of something to bitch about. But playwise I'm not fussed about it.
So I'm neutral & just let my opponents pick how it'll be done. Whichever they pick, I'm good.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





tneva82 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Every time a player chants the mantra "I *need* this double turn to win!" I die a little inside. And then when they actually get the double turn, I fully die.


Well the way GW games works if you know who goes first in each turn you know generally who wins after you know lists and who goes first.

Often can even predict points quite accurately. Winner is easy prediction short of silly random dice roll.


In almost all of my games that I played you knew who was going to win by lists anyway - random turn or no random turn. That is one reason why I dont' get excited about GW games. I like gaming to play the game, not out-listbuild someone.

Outside the tourney scene (wich I don't play & don't give a squigs dropping about) you don't need GW to hold your hand & spoon feed such a rule. Because guess what?
All it takes is a discussion with your opponent.
And if you decide not to use the rule? Well, you've simply taken a shortcut to a result the dice could've given you anyways.


The group I came from and had to endure AOS with was 100% official rules 100% of the time. There was no discussion with the opponent. It was pretty much shut down if you tried to houserule any changes. Talking with your opponent is not a viable answer because that will be subjective on your environment and the people playing. If you live in an area with people that are fine with playing with house rules, this may seem great - but if you are with people that I was with - that is a non discussion.

I highly doubt this one specific rule has kept anyone away from Age of Sigmar

This one rule is aobut 75% why I won't touch Age of Sigmar. If this rule didn't exist I'd probably play, though I'd have to do a lot of research into the area I live in now to find a more casual group so I didn't run into the other 25% why I don't play - the god awful balance and mountainous pile of units in the game that are useless or near useless when having to face the obvious min/max elements that make up the top 5-10% of the game 24/7.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/20 15:47:45


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

Ugh. I've been in a group like that before. I'm sorry you have had to deal with that!

Honestly, regardless of rules, you are always going to find people that make their interpretation unpleasant. It sounds like you may have run into exactly that situation.

My current group does not have that problem, and I love it. I haven't even once had a problem with house-ruling the double-turn, and I doubt that with 3.0 I will either. As I have no interest in tournaments, well, that takes care of it for me...

But if you are stuck with a bunch of... authoritative rules people, well, not much any of us can do about it :-(
   
 
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