Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
No Centurions etc. is odd, and matches BA Codex? Dare we draw any conclusions about upcoming model retirements?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Deep strike terminators into heart of enemy formation. May be deployed just outside of 6" of enemy units instead of 9". 1 CP for 1 unit, 3 CPs for 2 units. May only be used once per battle.
How about 1 CP for 1 squad, or 3 CPs for all DSing squads in a turn. It's storm bolters and assault cannons so not like it's plasma squads or melta squads coming down and shooting twice. As it stands, 2CP for some extra Storm bolter shots and assault cannon/cyclone shots is hardly worth it sadly. I'd rather save the CPs for when I roll 1's for 2+ armor saves...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 18:32:05
So...3CP to DS all of your drops within 6"? Yeah...
In any event, I think Deathwing Assault as we have it is overpriced. 1/2 for units of 5 and >5 seems fair. With good positioning, you should be able to get within double-tap stormbolter range of multiple units without much problem, so that's a ton of bonus firepower.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 18:56:45
JohnnyHell wrote: No Centurions etc. is odd, and matches BA Codex? Dare we draw any conclusions about upcoming model retirements?
God I hope so. I think it's safe to say there will be slow model retirements replaced with Primaris kits (maybe Aggressors are already supposed to replace them a bit).
JohnnyHell wrote: No Centurions etc. is odd, and matches BA Codex? Dare we draw any conclusions about upcoming model retirements?
Centurions came out sometime around 6e, which was around 2012-2014ish. There’s precedent for FW retiring models in about that time, but GW usually keeps sculpts around for longer unless they have a compelling reason not to. Heck, in this same thread people discussed getting new models for characters that haven’t been changed for ages, (though GW is weird about updating characters and seems to prioritize them somewhere lower than starting new product lines but before plastic Sisters. Some of the older ones are old enough to get jobs and start a family) and unless either Cents as a product were an absolute failure or we’re about to get primaris megacenturions I don’t see them getting retired yet.
40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
bobafett012 wrote: Not to derail the thread but!!!! Are you joking? Lemartes, Decent of angels, upon wings of fire, wings of sanguinius, The Angels' wing, Hammer of baal, standard of sacrifice, red rampage, the quickening, unleash rage, Death Visions of sanguinius, Forlorn fury, the red thirst, Sanguinary guard down 9 points a model, libby dreads down 20 points.....like what codex are you reading that it doesn't have better assault tools than chaos. In my personal opinion, I'd go so far as to say it will be one of, if not the premiere assault codex in the game right now.
Most of what you mentioned is fairly unexceptional though? I'd rather not list everything off one by one, but yes they have equivalents of most. Being able to reliably get charges out of deepstrike is nice but is hardly unique to blood angels. Nor are any of their buffs particularly impressive, they are more par of for the course alongside what I've seen elsewhere. In point of fact that only particular standouts are sanguinor, who you didn't mention weirdly, and the FNP standard which isn't even focused on assault. Basically, I see a lot of redundant ways to get the same effects, most of which don't stack or don't stack particularly well, with relatively few unique powerful options.
By contrast dark angels seem to have a wider variety of abilities with less redundancy. Not only do they have powerful alpha strike melee potential, but shooting, strong defensive buffs, ways to mitigate morale to maximize stratagem efficiency, and characters that are often much better than the BA equivalent (way easier for DA to stack extra attacks on a unit then double punch for example).
The bottom line is that I see few things in either codex I haven't seen before. But in DA codex I see pretty much everything I've seen before in other codices to some degree, while in the BA codex I see the same things repeated to the point I don't foresee any build needing all of them. That's why I'm leaning towards DA being the better codex myself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 19:35:40
JohnnyHell wrote: No Centurions etc. is odd, and matches BA Codex? Dare we draw any conclusions about upcoming model retirements?
Centurions came out sometime around 6e, which was around 2012-2014ish. There’s precedent for FW retiring models in about that time, but GW usually keeps sculpts around for longer unless they have a compelling reason not to. Heck, in this same thread people discussed getting new models for characters that haven’t been changed for ages, (though GW is weird about updating characters and seems to prioritize them somewhere lower than starting new product lines but before plastic Sisters. Some of the older ones are old enough to get jobs and start a family) and unless either Cents as a product were an absolute failure or we’re about to get primaris megacenturions I don’t see them getting retired yet.
It will be a slower transition if primaris are to replace all the space marine line. Namely, tactical marine load outs, as well as devs and assault marines etc.
GW would never sack off so many iconic units for the sake of it just because they finally decided to make marines the size they should be.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog
bobafett012 wrote: Not to derail the thread but!!!! Are you joking? Lemartes, Decent of angels, upon wings of fire, wings of sanguinius, The Angels' wing, Hammer of baal, standard of sacrifice, red rampage, the quickening, unleash rage, Death Visions of sanguinius, Forlorn fury, the red thirst, Sanguinary guard down 9 points a model, libby dreads down 20 points.....like what codex are you reading that it doesn't have better assault tools than chaos. In my personal opinion, I'd go so far as to say it will be one of, if not the premiere assault codex in the game right now.
Most of what you mentioned is fairly unexceptional though? I'd rather not list everything off one by one, but yes they have equivalents of most. Being able to reliably get charges out of deepstrike is nice but is hardly unique to blood angels. Nor are any of their buffs particularly impressive, they are more par of for the course alongside what I've seen elsewhere. In point of fact that only particular standouts are sanguinor, who you didn't mention weirdly, and the FNP standard which isn't even focused on assault. Basically, I see a lot of redundant ways to get the same effects, most of which don't stack or don't stack particularly well, with relatively few unique powerful options.
By contrast dark angels seem to have a wider variety of abilities with less redundancy. Not only do they have powerful alpha strike melee potential, but shooting, strong defensive buffs, ways to mitigate morale to maximize stratagem efficiency, and characters that are often much better than the BA equivalent (way easier for DA to stack extra attacks on a unit then double punch for example).
The bottom line is that I see few things in either codex I haven't seen before. But in DA codex I see pretty much everything I've seen before in other codices to some degree, while in the BA codex I see the same things repeated to the point I don't foresee any build needing all of them. That's why I'm leaning towards DA being the better codex myself.
The comparison had nothing to do with DA, it was essentially comparing Chaos assault abilities to BA assault abilities because someone suggested BA got nothing that impressed them. They only got all the tools they needed to be a good assault army, but that's neither here, nor there.
As for the stronger codex, i don't think the DA book will barely even make mid tier. I'm leaning towards bottom tier, and the BA codex, probably not top tier but upper mid tier. You can really see it when all these reviewers are reading through the dex and struggle to really say anything nice. Either way, I'll still play my DW occasionally because I love the look and the army and because I have since 2nd edition (didn't play in 7th), but i believe this dex is the weakest one i've seen in my time playing the DA. For my army, terminators are the strongest they've been in a long while with 2 wounds and 4 shot storm bolters, but they are still not where they need to be. Likely still over costed by a few points.
eternalxfl wrote: Is there a consensus as to how Deathwing is looking right now? Any chance we'll be seeing more mono-esque DW rosters - or perhaps not?
they aren't any worse off after the codex, but they aren't much better either, which is very disappointing. They saw virtually no change what so ever from the index to the codex, and gained virtually nothing except 2 strategems. one of them is highly over priced, the other is ok for making your knights a bit tougher to remove if you play with knights. Otherwise, see above for what I think of Deathwing, and terminators in general.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/11 21:20:56
bobafett012 wrote: Not to derail the thread but!!!! Are you joking? Lemartes, Decent of angels, upon wings of fire, wings of sanguinius, The Angels' wing, Hammer of baal, standard of sacrifice, red rampage, the quickening, unleash rage, Death Visions of sanguinius, Forlorn fury, the red thirst, Sanguinary guard down 9 points a model, libby dreads down 20 points.....like what codex are you reading that it doesn't have better assault tools than chaos. In my personal opinion, I'd go so far as to say it will be one of, if not the premiere assault codex in the game right now.
Most of what you mentioned is fairly unexceptional though? I'd rather not list everything off one by one, but yes they have equivalents of most. Being able to reliably get charges out of deepstrike is nice but is hardly unique to blood angels. Nor are any of their buffs particularly impressive, they are more par of for the course alongside what I've seen elsewhere. In point of fact that only particular standouts are sanguinor, who you didn't mention weirdly, and the FNP standard which isn't even focused on assault. Basically, I see a lot of redundant ways to get the same effects, most of which don't stack or don't stack particularly well, with relatively few unique powerful options.
By contrast dark angels seem to have a wider variety of abilities with less redundancy. Not only do they have powerful alpha strike melee potential, but shooting, strong defensive buffs, ways to mitigate morale to maximize stratagem efficiency, and characters that are often much better than the BA equivalent (way easier for DA to stack extra attacks on a unit then double punch for example).
The bottom line is that I see few things in either codex I haven't seen before. But in DA codex I see pretty much everything I've seen before in other codices to some degree, while in the BA codex I see the same things repeated to the point I don't foresee any build needing all of them. That's why I'm leaning towards DA being the better codex myself.
The comparison had nothing to do with DA, it was essentially comparing Chaos assault abilities to BA assault abilities because someone suggested BA got nothing that impressed them. They only got all the tools they needed to be a good assault army, but that's neither here, nor there.
As for the stronger codex, i don't think the DA book will barely even make mid tier. I'm leaning towards bottom tier, and the BA codex, probably not top tier but upper mid tier. You can really see it when all these reviewers are reading through the dex and struggle to really say anything nice. Either way, I'll still play my DW occasionally because I love the look and the army and because I have since 2nd edition (didn't play in 7th), but i believe this dex is the weakest one i've seen in my time playing the DA. For my army, terminators are the strongest they've been in a long while with 2 wounds and 4 shot storm bolters, but they are still not where they need to be. Likely still over costed by a few points.
eternalxfl wrote: Is there a consensus as to how Deathwing is looking right now? Any chance we'll be seeing more mono-esque DW rosters - or perhaps not?
they aren't any worse off after the codex, but they aren't much better either, which is very disappointing. They saw virtually no change what so ever from the index to the codex, and gained virtually nothing except 2 strategems. one of them is highly over priced, the other is ok for making your knights a bit tougher to remove if you play with knights. Otherwise, see above for what I think of Deathwing, and terminators in general.
I think you're ignoring a lot of the potential in this codex. There are some very strong combos in here, and while I would never claim it was top tier, it's solidly in the middle. We have some *very* strong HQ's (Azrael and Sammy), we still have one of the largest arrays of powerful special units (Black Knights, Deathwing Knights, Darkshroud) and now we have access to one of the best SM units, the Storm Raven.
I saw you play DW, how are you not extremely excited to be able to fly a squad of DW Knights into your opponents backfield and drop them off near something valuable? WIth a dread and an HQ on top of that for support?
IDK, I know it's subjective and only play will prove otherwise, but I don't get the doom and gloom around it.
Is the most exciting codex we've ever had?
No.
Is it reinventing the wheel?
No.
Is it taking a lot of what made us strong this edition, and adding a few more tricks?
Yes.
I don't know about you, but I'll take it.
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
I'm not extremely excited to try to shoehorn in a 350 point model into my already very tight, very low model count army. I don't think it fits at all into my army. Might go great into a greenwing army that utilizes Knights as it's hammer, but not mine. And terminators in general still aren't competitive. They still are behind the curve and cost too many points imo. It's why you literally don't see them at all in any of the top tournament lists, and while i'm clearly no tournament player, as I play DW (and BA), it'd be nice to see units, like terminators, that have needed balancing for probably at least 4 editions now. they got some nice boosts for 8th, but I was hoping to get something else with the codex and literally got nothing.
I do agree with all three of your points, this book isn't the most exciting, It's not reinventing the wheel, and added a few new tricks. Agreed %100. This book feels boring and not like DA, but more like a weaker version of the Space marine codex.
I'm just not excited like I was when I read my BA codex, and that saddens me. It's the same feeling I got when I read the 4th edition dark angels codex, and again when it got updated in 6th. I skipped 7th, which I hear was our best one. Oh well.
Concensus seems to be that this is the worst codex so far but better than most remaining Index lists... even if just by virtue of having a codex rather than index. For now we're mid tier.
LEJ wrote: Concensus seems to be that this is the worst codex so far but better than most remaining Index lists... even if just by virtue of having a codex rather than index. For now we're mid tier.
When has that consensus been decided? I wasn't in the vote!
Worse codex? Worse than Admech and Grey Knights? To be honest for what I have seen I think Dark Angels are in part with Death Guard, but I'm speaking out of my **s. The problem is we don't have a powerhouse like Mortarion. Azrael was, but after the nerf to his invulnerability aura, it will be much more tame.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
LEJ wrote: Concensus seems to be that this is the worst codex so far but better than most remaining Index lists... even if just by virtue of having a codex rather than index. For now we're mid tier.
When has that consensus been decided? I wasn't in the vote!
Worse codex? Worse than Admech and Grey Knights? To be honest for what I have seen I think Dark Angels are in part with Death Guard, but I'm speaking out of my **s. The problem is we don't have a powerhouse like Mortarion. Azrael was, but after the nerf to his invulnerability aura, it will be much more tame.
It must be one of those cases where 3 people at his LGS have written the codex off so therefore the world must agree.
DA are on par with most of the other codexes. Only issue I have is that Deathwing are still slightly overcosted.
They have some very good combos and expect to see Devastator units with 4 plasma cannons start appearing in a lot of lists. May even finally use my LS Vengeance, 2 editions now sat on the shelf. Sticking it near Sammael and then using the strat for D6 shots at 4 dmg a piece - may not be reliable but is certainly hilarious.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
Even as someone who's pretty unexcited by the codex I'm pretty sure that plasma stratagem is better than anything Grey Knights get access to. If nothing else it's waaaay too early to write it off entirely.
Did the "banner of everybody shoot twice" end up being fake?
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
ph34r wrote: Did the "banner of everybody shoot twice" end up being fake?
Yep. likewise the banner giving the 5+++ aura
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
LEJ wrote: Concensus seems to be that this is the worst codex so far but better than most remaining Index lists... even if just by virtue of having a codex rather than index. For now we're mid tier.
When has that consensus been decided? I wasn't in the vote!
Worse codex? Worse than Admech and Grey Knights? To be honest for what I have seen I think Dark Angels are in part with Death Guard, but I'm speaking out of my **s. The problem is we don't have a powerhouse like Mortarion. Azrael was, but after the nerf to his invulnerability aura, it will be much more tame.
It must be one of those cases where 3 people at his LGS have written the codex off so therefore the world must agree.
DA are on par with most of the other codexes. Only issue I have is that Deathwing are still slightly overcosted.
Deathwing are never not going to be overcosted. They have a special rule that normal terminators don't, ergo, they cost more.... even if that rule effectively does nothing.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I think you're ignoring a lot of the potential in this codex. There are some very strong combos in here, and while I would never claim it was top tier, it's solidly in the middle. We have some *very* strong HQ's (Azrael and Sammy), we still have one of the largest arrays of powerful special units (Black Knights, Deathwing Knights, Darkshroud) and now we have access to one of the best SM units, the Storm Raven.
So what about players like me who don't play special characters in every game as that's not exactly sensible and doesn't even have those special units. Just good old traditional dark angel army. DA again shoehorned into spam their unique units and SC's or you suck?
Then there's this shoehorning them into plasma army where taking anything but plasma is silly. Bleargh.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bobafett012 wrote: I'm not extremely excited to try to shoehorn in a 350 point model into my already very tight, very low model count army. I don't think it fits at all into my army. Might go great into a greenwing army that utilizes Knights as it's hammer, but not mine. And terminators in general still aren't competitive. They still are behind the curve and cost too many points imo. It's why you literally don't see them at all in any of the top tournament lists, and while i'm clearly no tournament player, as I play DW (and BA), it'd be nice to see units, like terminators, that have needed balancing for probably at least 4 editions now. they got some nice boosts for 8th, but I was hoping to get something else with the codex and literally got nothing.
Terminators looked nice at the start with 2W...Then plethora of D2 or better weapons came obvious and hey presto there went that hope.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote: Deathwing are never not going to be overcosted. They have a special rule that normal terminators don't, ergo, they cost more.... even if that rule effectively does nothing.
Apart from your statement making no sense(rule that effectively does nothing obviously should then effectively not cost more) you are assuming regular terminators are fairly priced rather than overpriced junk in the first place.
See much terminators in tournament lists? Especially on the competive ones.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/12 09:19:04
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I think you're ignoring a lot of the potential in this codex. There are some very strong combos in here, and while I would never claim it was top tier, it's solidly in the middle. We have some *very* strong HQ's (Azrael and Sammy), we still have one of the largest arrays of powerful special units (Black Knights, Deathwing Knights, Darkshroud) and now we have access to one of the best SM units, the Storm Raven.
So what about players like me who don't play special characters in every game as that's not exactly sensible and doesn't even have those special units. Just good old traditional dark angel army. DA again shoehorned into spam their unique units and SC's or you suck?
Then there's this shoehorning them into plasma army where taking anything but plasma is silly. Bleargh.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bobafett012 wrote: I'm not extremely excited to try to shoehorn in a 350 point model into my already very tight, very low model count army. I don't think it fits at all into my army. Might go great into a greenwing army that utilizes Knights as it's hammer, but not mine. And terminators in general still aren't competitive. They still are behind the curve and cost too many points imo. It's why you literally don't see them at all in any of the top tournament lists, and while i'm clearly no tournament player, as I play DW (and BA), it'd be nice to see units, like terminators, that have needed balancing for probably at least 4 editions now. they got some nice boosts for 8th, but I was hoping to get something else with the codex and literally got nothing.
Terminators looked nice at the start with 2W...Then plethora of D2 or better weapons came obvious and hey presto there went that hope.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote: Deathwing are never not going to be overcosted. They have a special rule that normal terminators don't, ergo, they cost more.... even if that rule effectively does nothing.
Apart from your statement making no sense(rule that effectively does nothing obviously should then effectively not cost more) you are assuming regular terminators are fairly priced rather than overpriced junk in the first place.
See much terminators in tournament lists? Especially on the competive ones.
Then you shouldn't be salty about being left behind. They can't tailor the codex to fit every individual army. They're going to tailor it to the kits they want to sell. That's just business.
And frankly, you're missing out on some of the most fun units in the game if you exclude Black Knights. Those boys are wildly fun to play with.
And if you don't want to play with our special units, you might as well just use a Codex SM chapter tactic and just call them Dark Angels. You're deliberately ignoring a huge part of what makes our army unique in my opinion.
I feel like you're like a White Scar player complaining about being shoehorned into playing bikes. Dark Angels are all about their specialized Fallen hunting units and fleshing out their two unique formations. It's been that way forever. It's your army, so do as you please, but imo complaining your version of the army isn't supported when your army is only 1/3 of what our Chapter can bring to the table seems silly.
And regarding the plasma, I know that wasn't a thing for several editions, but the fluff of the chapter has been moving that way for years now. The Dark Angels are the guys rolling around with a bunch of toys from the Dark Age of Technology. That's our established fluff now. It makes sense to push it.
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I feel like you're like a White Scar player complaining about being shoehorned into playing bikes. Dark Angels are all about their specialized Fallen hunting units and fleshing out their two unique formations. It's been that way forever. It's your army, so do as you please, but imo complaining your version of the army isn't supported when your army is only 1/3 of what our Chapter can bring to the table seems silly.
And regarding the plasma, I know that wasn't a thing for several editions, but the fluff of the chapter has been moving that way for years now. The Dark Angels are the guys rolling around with a bunch of toys from the Dark Age of Technology. That's our established fluff now. It makes sense to push it.
White scar players have valid point in that it\s HIGHLY UNFLUFFY to run all bike white scar armies. That's against white scar fluff. Similarly dark angel armies aren't all deathwing and ravenwing which compose only 20% of chapter at full strength. There's you know these 8 other companies? You know? Those containing tacticals? THE core of any chapter barring space wolves...Or devastators? Assault marines? Remember they exists? The ones that compose 80% of dark angels?
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I feel like you're like a White Scar player complaining about being shoehorned into playing bikes. Dark Angels are all about their specialized Fallen hunting units and fleshing out their two unique formations. It's been that way forever. It's your army, so do as you please, but imo complaining your version of the army isn't supported when your army is only 1/3 of what our Chapter can bring to the table seems silly.
And regarding the plasma, I know that wasn't a thing for several editions, but the fluff of the chapter has been moving that way for years now. The Dark Angels are the guys rolling around with a bunch of toys from the Dark Age of Technology. That's our established fluff now. It makes sense to push it.
White scar players have valid point in that it\s HIGHLY UNFLUFFY to run all bike white scar armies. That's against white scar fluff. Similarly dark angel armies aren't all deathwing and ravenwing which compose only 20% of chapter at full strength. There's you know these 8 other companies? You know? Those containing tacticals? THE core of any chapter barring space wolves...Or devastators? Assault marines? Remember they exists? The ones that compose 80% of dark angels?
I do! In fact, I'm very excited to field more of them, since the new rules *HUGELY* support the units that dig their heels in and shoot the enemies' tails off!
Assault Marines get to be boosted by a psychic power that gives them rerolls on to-hits and to-wounds in melee.
Tacticals are the next best thing to fearless, and with the right loadout can shoot enemies off the table.
Where again is their lack of support?
And I'm not sure what fluff you're reading, but the White Scars being bike fetishists is absolutely canon. Do they have mostly regular companies? Yes. Does each and every one of them prefer to be mounted at every given opportunity? Yes. So why ion the world would you get a White Scars army if you wanted to play tacticals and termies? It wouldn't make sense, hence their rules.
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I feel like you're like a White Scar player complaining about being shoehorned into playing bikes. Dark Angels are all about their specialized Fallen hunting units and fleshing out their two unique formations. It's been that way forever. It's your army, so do as you please, but imo complaining your version of the army isn't supported when your army is only 1/3 of what our Chapter can bring to the table seems silly.
And regarding the plasma, I know that wasn't a thing for several editions, but the fluff of the chapter has been moving that way for years now. The Dark Angels are the guys rolling around with a bunch of toys from the Dark Age of Technology. That's our established fluff now. It makes sense to push it.
White scar players have valid point in that it\s HIGHLY UNFLUFFY to run all bike white scar armies. That's against white scar fluff. Similarly dark angel armies aren't all deathwing and ravenwing which compose only 20% of chapter at full strength. There's you know these 8 other companies? You know? Those containing tacticals? THE core of any chapter barring space wolves...Or devastators? Assault marines? Remember they exists? The ones that compose 80% of dark angels?
Man, can you leave this personal crusade of you? If I want to do a damm full Terminator Force I'll do. If I want to do a full Tactical Squad force I'll do it. Because when you have 20 models in the table, why couldn't it represent a small force?
And I say this when my Dark Angel force is a mix of greenwing, deathwing and ravenwing. But man. Relax.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 15:55:18
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
More than half the published novels have DA undertaking single company operations.
Part of the whole point of the separate companies is that they can go on their own when dealing with something the rest of the chapter doesn't need to know about.
A battle the size of ordinary 40k is easily in the size of a few squads tracking down a fallen or information about one. You could imagine the campaign has green guys all over the place but their company masters would keep them away from this area.
So yeah, its highly unfluffy to see a white scars force of all bikes... unless you also realise it could be a bike spearhead but the rest of the fight is not in the 40k battle. You need to play Epic to see the whole thing.
@tneva82- I'm not assuming anything, just explaining GWs logic with Deathwing. Since inner circle could, in absurd circumstance, save a model from a morale test, and might give them a bonus in a specific fight, GW thinks it has to be worth some number of points. So therefor Deathwing Terminators must have a higher cost than regular terminators. That's how a points system works.
That it doesn't actually work out well on the table doesn't matter to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 18:20:24
bobafett012 wrote: As for the stronger codex, i don't think the DA book will barely even make mid tier. I'm leaning towards bottom tier, and the BA codex, probably not top tier but upper mid tier. You can really see it when all these reviewers are reading through the dex and struggle to really say anything nice. Either way, I'll still play my DW occasionally because I love the look and the army and because I have since 2nd edition (didn't play in 7th), but i believe this dex is the weakest one i've seen in my time playing the DA. For my army, terminators are the strongest they've been in a long while with 2 wounds and 4 shot storm bolters, but they are still not where they need to be. Likely still over costed by a few points.
Reviewers get distracted by new shiny things, Codex SM got more excitement than DA not because it's better overall (Robby G is the only possible exception) but by merely having lots of new rules. The BA codex had lots of new rules that ultimately don't amount to much when taken as a whole, as it merely allowed them to do what many armies already could, often without devoting multiple slots of their toolbox to it. Codex DG got lots of excitement while codex admech got none, because DG had all new stuff while admech was the index with minor changes and repeats/variations on established CT/relics etc. Yet those two codice were pretty close in power to each other. If anything admech was the better one for having a stronger peak build, albeit kinda a boring one.
I'll give another example, I've seen people saying they don't think the deathwing stratagem that lets them fire twice is very good, except for the fact they can fire in the movement phase. Because, despite that being a trivial aspect of of the stratagem, it's something new. While firing twice is something we've seen before.
People's first impressions are usually based on the new shiny principle, only once they start doing point breakdowns or playing will they start to have more useful opinions on balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 20:00:08
bobafett012 wrote: As for the stronger codex, i don't think the DA book will barely even make mid tier. I'm leaning towards bottom tier, and the BA codex, probably not top tier but upper mid tier. You can really see it when all these reviewers are reading through the dex and struggle to really say anything nice. Either way, I'll still play my DW occasionally because I love the look and the army and because I have since 2nd edition (didn't play in 7th), but i believe this dex is the weakest one i've seen in my time playing the DA. For my army, terminators are the strongest they've been in a long while with 2 wounds and 4 shot storm bolters, but they are still not where they need to be. Likely still over costed by a few points.
Reviewers get distracted by new shiny things, Codex SM got more excitement than DA not because it's better overall (Robby G is the only possible exception) but by merely having lots of new rules. The BA codex had lots of new rules that ultimately don't amount to much when taken as a whole, as it merely allowed them to do what many armies already could, often without devoting multiple slots of their toolbox to it. Codex DG got lots of excitement while codex admech got none, because DG had all new stuff while admech was the index with minor changes and repeats/variations on established CT/relics etc. Yet those two codice were pretty close in power to each other. If anything admech was the better one for having a stronger peak build, albeit kinda a boring one.
I'll give another example, I've seen people saying they don't think the deathwing stratagem that lets them fire twice is very good, except for the fact they can fire in the movement phase. Because, despite that being a trivial aspect of of the stratagem, it's something new. While firing twice is something we've seen before.
People's first impressions are usually based on the new shiny principle, only once they start doing point breakdowns or playing will they start to have more useful opinions on balance.
My first impressions are based off stats, mathhammer, theoryhammer, and comparison to other codexes. This book is a weaker version of SM. Point blank, and period. From the strategems, to the relics, to the warlord traits, and the psychic power, it's just straight up not as powerful. Your not going to talk me out of my opinion. I formed my opinion before I started watching a single review, and crazily enough, everyone is saying about the same thing. The book ain't great, there's nothing mind blowing in the book, it's ok, it's meh, they are struggling to find anything with much merit in the book beyond a couple things. Hell the mini wargaming channel even had to start the review off with saying the book isn't a top tier book. I've gotten used to it because i've been playing DW since 2nd edition. That's why I ended up starting up 2 more armies after getting let down edition after edition. This way, when they have a down edition I can swap over to one of my other armies. Looks like that be blood angels or ravenguard this edition...
I'm less interested in the codex being a tournament dominator than if it is fun, flexible, and adequately playable. It is all three of those things. It's strong enough that you won't expect to loose every game, and has a bunch of unique toys and combos to keep things fresh.
That being said, how about we all calm down about the power level until people start having real world experience with it. Maybe the whole is greater than the some of the parts, especially after some meta shifts in the not too distant future.
The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh 
5300 | 
2800 | 
3600 | 
1600 | 
