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Quite possibly, but by the same logic he'd be better of dropping the entire army and playing demons or renegades and heretics. Horde armies are better than elite armies overall. Even if gors didn't exist rubrics are worse than cultists or various horror variants overall. You are describing an issue with the edition as a whole, ignoring that you actually have a solution to the problem in your own codex unlike many armies.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Trajan his name is Trajan

Dude, first off, proofread your stuff. Secondly, I didnt say most of what you're claiming, you have the wrong person. Thirdly:

"When people said "11 TS and 40 Tzaangors but you could do the opposite", no you can't Rubrics cost almost 3x Tzaangors with NO upgrades, but you parroted it because it made you right, that requires zero thought."

I know this? I'm arguing for this..... I dont want to play a Tzaangor army.

"You even said I was right once you just don't even it. When you mentioned bringing Horrors or Tzzangors, and dropping them infront of the enemy army, then mentioned dropping a unit of Rubrics."

I never said this. I never mentioned Horrors or deep striking units in front of the enemy.... Again, you got the wrong person.

As for bringing what, I dont know. I haven't played with the Tzaangors outside of their basics. I play a melee Thousand Sons list because my army evolved that way. I stopped building said army because I looked at it one day and found out I was using a minimum amount of models that actually made Thousand Sons special and was just playing a generic Chaos army list...

But for bringing the right stuff, at the end of the game, not including objectives, which army had what models left? Now I could have missed it, but it looked like to me the Custodes still had their land raider and some models left, and Thousand Sons had very little left.

Dude i'm not quoting you I'm quoting Caedares

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Dude i'm not quoting you I'm quoting Caedares

Lol well Jesus Christo.... these quotes are getting too long then.

When DG came out people were saying DG won't use Plague Marines anymore due to Poxwalkers being so cheap. Then PMs were reduced in points two times and are a viable choice now. I still don't get the premise of this thread saying Rubrics will stay overpriced foreva and because of that won't be used. We don't even know if they aren't reduced in the codex already.
Also what makes you think TS are now dead when their lists since 4th ed. usually were made of maximum 2x5 Rubric squads + lots of things that have nothing to do with TS. With the 6th. edition codex usually their other units weren't even using the MoT as a 6++ is trash and people rather used MoN because of a similar, but better effect. And after that period of 3 editions were Rubrics/ Tzeentch-CSM were one of the worst units in the game you are saying now they are dead? Now that they get their first proper codex, proper minis and fluff support?

It's also funny how this threads talks about TS being dead because of some long-time established Tzaangors in their list while the DG thread talks about DG lists using 10 tanks. Yes, a list of only 10 tanks for the legion that is established since at least 3rde ed. as the legion having hardly any tanks aside from some Rhinos and the odd Vindicator.
In both cases the answer is very easy: Play the list you like following the fluff you like about your army.

Also let's not mention the competetive scene in a thread like this because they will at the upper end bend all rules and disregard all fluff for a competive advantage. If you use that a measuring stick for "dead " than at any point in 40k 90-95% of the game is dead because it isn't usable. Right now cheap hordes are better than elites so Tzaangors will probably outperform TS in points efficiency, this is no different than any imperial tactica basicly saying just add AM.

 nintura wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?

Proved wrong how? Please tell me. Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3. And not getting any new thousand sons marines units. In the game, there were 1 Rubric squad, 1 SoT. Yet tons of Tzaangors. Yes, it's a show case, but see the first half of this statement.

Because of the goalposts you're moving here to attempt to stay correct.

Rubricae are expensive - therefore in points, they're usually more numerous than the Tzaangors.
Rubricae are also able to be taken without any Tzaangors. Tzaangors don't have this liberty.
On pure unit count - sorry, so what do the various tanks and ascended models the TS have access to count as if not TS? Are you ONLY counting the Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines as Thousand Sons? If so, then I guess that must make the BA dead, because they're vastly outnumbered by non-BA unique stuff.

Your rebuttal to that was "you're just arguing for the sake of arguing" - why? How? He proves you wrong in that the TS DO have more units than Tzaangors. 6 units compared to 3.
How HASN'T CthulusSpy proved you incorrect in that statement? You don't make any move to disprove it, and just call it "arguing for the sake of arguing".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?

Proved wrong how? Please tell me. Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3. And not getting any new thousand sons marines units. In the game, there were 1 Rubric squad, 1 SoT. Yet tons of Tzaangors. Yes, it's a show case, but see the first half of this statement.

Because of the goalposts you're moving here to attempt to stay correct.

Rubricae are expensive - therefore in points, they're usually more numerous than the Tzaangors.
Rubricae are also able to be taken without any Tzaangors. Tzaangors don't have this liberty.
On pure unit count - sorry, so what do the various tanks and ascended models the TS have access to count as if not TS? Are you ONLY counting the Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines as Thousand Sons? If so, then I guess that must make the BA dead, because they're vastly outnumbered by non-BA unique stuff.

Your rebuttal to that was "you're just arguing for the sake of arguing" - why? How? He proves you wrong in that the TS DO have more units than Tzaangors. 6 units compared to 3.
How HASN'T CthulusSpy proved you incorrect in that statement? You don't make any move to disprove it, and just call it "arguing for the sake of arguing".

You've yet again failed to understand the points being made.

Is a Predator Thousand Sons? Yes. Is it what makes Thousand Sons unique? No. Is it a generic chaos space marine unit? Yes

Was I referring to generic chaos space marine units? no. Because any chaos army can take them. Those of us unhappy are complaining because when you think of Thousand Sons, you think of the Rubrics and Sorcerers. Neither of these the Predator falls under. Or a Rhino. Daemon Prince? I'll give that, but it's still a generic piece.

Now, are you trying to say that I'm blind? That I cannot see what's on stream or read what's in an army list? Because that's another matter if you are. I dont need you to tell me there's a Predator on the field, I can see that. So if I talk about Rubrics/Thousand Sons, obviously I'm leaving the Pred out for one reason or another. Our complaint is about the models that make the Thousand Sons unique, not the generic Chaos units. We got 3 "new" Tzaangor units. We got 0 new Thousand Sons marine units. Now that you know what people are trying to say, apply that to this game. I see lots of Tzaangor units, and ONLY 1 squad of Rubrics and 1 squad of SoT. That's only 2 squads of unique Thousand Sons units. Everything else is Tzaangor or generic chaos space marine units.

Well, what makes Thousand Sons unique in your eyes? When I look at their 30K list of models I see exactly 3 unique units: Sekhmet Terminators, Khenentai Marines and the Osiron Dreadnought. Everything else isn't unique - what do you want to see?
If you ask me, Tzaangors are what makes the TS unique, if they weren't there, TS were just blue Chaos marines with more sorcerers.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, what makes Thousand Sons unique in your eyes? When I look at their 30K list of models I see exactly 3 unique units: Sekhmet Terminators, Khenentai Marines and the Osiron Dreadnought. Everything else isn't unique - what do you want to see?
If you ask me, Tzaangors are what makes the TS unique, if they weren't there, TS were just blue Chaos marines with more sorcerers.

Honestly I couldn't tell you about 30k, I've never played it. I'd love to have the sword guys back. Just because they are automatons doesn't mean they cant be controlled to a further extent by a more gifted psyker. In fact, that would make that psyker seam much more badass all for it. Instead, I'll tell you how I saw the Thousand Sons and why I wanted to start them.

I love the idea of magic. Sorcery. Psykers. I've always loved the Thousand Sons models all throughout the years. Obviously I'm talking about Ahriman and the Rubrics. Their 2nd edition aspiring sorcerer was a wicked model. (I love their newer models for sure). But again, I saw them as a marine army that used a few fodder units, sort of like Tau use drones. Or IG use infantry while their tanks destroy the enemy. In this regard, Thousand Sons would use Tzaangor to protect themselves while they devastate the enemy with their sorcerous powers. They would be the ultimate masters of the psyker phase (except maybe to Ulthwe). So to me, the Thousand Sons faction would be their automatons and their masters, backed up by their fodder and a couple war machines. Now, I understand 8th is better for Horde armies who can control their Leadership and that makes mass Tzaangor squads favorable. And again, I have nothing against Tzaangors. I rather like their models. I love the disc ones and their Shamans. And I totally understand where everyone else is coming from with saying that Thousand Sons in their entirety are also the generic chaos space marine models. And I understand not every new codex comes with new models. I really do.

What I'm saying is that I'm disappointed that we did not get an extension to the Thousand Son legion original. I would have loved some cheaper Psykers to spam. Or different flavor of Rubrics. Hell, put Rubrics or Aspiring Sorcs on discs and give them glaives or something and I'd spend every dollar I own. Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy. But you need to understand the other side of this coin and that's where everyone else is complaining. We didn't get that. What we got were 3 imports from AoS with no changes (that we know of) for our army. It just simply comes off as lazy. Does it fill a hole? Yes. Is it nice because they are already available? Yes. But if you take what are uniquely Thousand Sons marines, and you compare them to their Tzaangor add ons, you have more Tzaangor units in the dex than you do Thousand Sons. Imagine if you played a Tau army, but all you had in your dex was Stealth Suits, Fire Warriors, and Kroot. You finally get your new dex and they just give you 3 more versions of Kroot. Yes, technically Kroot are part of the Tau empire. But they really aren't the reason you're playing Tau now are they?

TLDR: It feels like a Tzaangor army and not Thousand Sons Legion proper. If they had named this Codex: Tzeentch, oh sweet baby Jesus I'd totally be on your guys side over this.

 nintura wrote:
Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3.

Tzaangor Kits:
1) Shaman
2) Enlightened
3) Regular Tzaangors

Three kits.


Thousand Sons Unique Marine Kits:
1) Rubrics
2) Scarab Terminators
3) Exalted Sorcerers
4) Ahriman
5) Magnus

Five kits.

So even if we accept your bs limit of not counting common chaos marine units such as Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes and Predators, there are still more Thousand Sons marine kits than Tzaangor kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:

Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy.

There you go:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Rhino-Doors
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Legion-Rhino-Doors-and-Frontplate-2017

Ha, wanted to provide the same links as Crimson
if you want to have unique TS Rhinos and predators have a look at the FW range or alternative sellers. That's what literally every SM and CSM player has to do.
Would I like possessed, deseased rhinos with poison launchers for my DG? Of course! But we didn't have that since 3rd ed and 8th ed. did away with most of the remaining vehicle upgrades in every army - which is kind of sad. I expect some of it to come back in some tank expansion, but that's pure speculation. Up until then we need our imagination that doesn't stop us from building verhicles as unique as we like them.

SilverAlien wrote:
Quite possibly, but by the same logic he'd be better of dropping the entire army and playing demons or renegades and heretics. Horde armies are better than elite armies overall. Even if gors didn't exist rubrics are worse than cultists or various horror variants overall. You are describing an issue with the edition as a whole, ignoring that you actually have a solution to the problem in your own codex unlike many armies.

Were not talking about pther armies were talking about TS and whether Tzaangors will be better to take then Rubrics.

 nintura wrote:
We got 3 "new" Tzaangor units. We got 0 new Thousand Sons marine units. Now that you know what people are trying to say, apply that to this game. I see lots of Tzaangor units, and ONLY 1 squad of Rubrics and 1 squad of SoT. That's only 2 squads of unique Thousand Sons units. Everything else is Tzaangor or generic chaos space marine units.

We only just got Scarabs, Magnus and the Exalted Sorc a little while ago and as a faction, we're probably not going to get any sympathy for complaining that the kits we got aren't the kits that a handful of people wanted, especially when we've just got our entire line revamped in awesome plastics with many others still languish in metal or finecast.

Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs, Ahriman and Magnus are all specialty TS marine units. The Shaman, Skyfires, Tzaangors and Mutalith are all generic non-marine Sons units. Then you've got the various tanks and daemon engines that round it out that are copy paste jobs from the CSM book. 5 marine units, 4 non-marine units and a bunch of support units common to our parent dex.

If you were refering to the list for the warhammer TV game, well, duh, they're showing off the new units and they literally took 1 of everything:
1x Magnus
1x Ahriman
1x Daemon Prince
1x Shaman
1x unit of Scarabs
1x unit of Rubricae
1x unit of Cultists
1x unit of Tzaangors
1x unit of Enlightened
1x Predator
1x Mutalith

The only thing that's missing from that list that's exclusive to the Sons is an exalted sorceror, otherwise they have 4x TS marine units, 4x TS non-marine units and 3 generics from the CSM dex.

There's really only 2 things I can gather from the 21 pages of both sides bitching back and forth at the other and if someone from the "Sons are dead" side can try and fill the blanks in, I'd appreciate it:
1) We got models, but they weren't Thousand Sons special snowflake marine versions of existing CSM units and this has caused some people to throw their toys out of the pram before seeing any solid information be somewhat dissapointed that non-marine forces are present to any notable degree in the 'dex
2) There's a lot of disagreement on what fluff is relevant and if the title was changed to "The addition of various flavours of gor doesn't match the vision I had for my Thousand Sons army", nobody would have cared and there would have been a small handful of replies at best.

For those of you who are unhappy with how things have panned out so far, I ask you this: Would you have been happier if we had a) gotten a codex only and 0 new models (thus keeping the "focus" on the marine portion of the Sons in your eyes), or b) the release as you've seen it so far where you have the option of taking some of the new units or not at your discretion? Please note that there is no 3rd option, it's a) or b) only.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3.

Tzaangor Kits:
1) Shaman
2) Enlightened
3) Regular Tzaangors

Three kits.


Thousand Sons Unique Marine Kits:
1) Rubrics
2) Scarab Terminators
3) Exalted Sorcerers
4) Ahriman
5) Magnus

Five kits.

So even if we accept your bs limit of not counting common chaos marine units such as Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes and Predators, there are still more Thousand Sons marine kits than Tzaangor kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:

Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy.

There you go:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Rhino-Doors
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Legion-Rhino-Doors-and-Frontplate-2017

Since when do we start counting Named Characters? And how many people bitch when you bring Maggie? You're also forgetting Skyfires.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Ha, wanted to provide the same links as Crimson
if you want to have unique TS Rhinos and predators have a look at the FW range or alternative sellers. That's what literally every SM and CSM player has to do.
Would I like possessed, deseased rhinos with poison launchers for my DG? Of course! But we didn't have that since 3rd ed and 8th ed. did away with most of the remaining vehicle upgrades in every army - which is kind of sad. I expect some of it to come back in some tank expansion, but that's pure speculation. Up until then we need our imagination that doesn't stop us from building verhicles as unique as we like them.

Ive been in this game over 20 years. I know what forgeworld is. The point was that GW themselves did not put anything into making new stuff. Again, the defining term in that whole argument was "lazy"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drasius wrote:

 nintura wrote:
We got 3 "new" Tzaangor units. We got 0 new Thousand Sons marine units. Now that you know what people are trying to say, apply that to this game. I see lots of Tzaangor units, and ONLY 1 squad of Rubrics and 1 squad of SoT. That's only 2 squads of unique Thousand Sons units. Everything else is Tzaangor or generic chaos space marine units.

We only just got Scarabs, Magnus and the Exalted Sorc a little while ago and as a faction, we're probably not going to get any sympathy for complaining that the kits we got aren't the kits that a handful of people wanted, especially when we've just got our entire line revamped in awesome plastics with many others still languish in metal or finecast.

Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs, Ahriman and Magnus are all specialty TS marine units. The Shaman, Skyfires, Tzaangors and Mutalith are all generic non-marine Sons units. Then you've got the various tanks and daemon engines that round it out that are copy paste jobs from the CSM book. 5 marine units, 4 non-marine units and a bunch of support units common to our parent dex.

If you were refering to the list for the warhammer TV game, well, duh, they're showing off the new units and they literally took 1 of everything:
1x Magnus
1x Ahriman
1x Daemon Prince
1x Shaman
1x unit of Scarabs
1x unit of Rubricae
1x unit of Cultists
1x unit of Tzaangors
1x unit of Enlightened
1x Predator
1x Mutalith

The only thing that's missing from that list that's exclusive to the Sons is an exalted sorceror, otherwise they have 4x TS marine units, 4x TS non-marine units and 3 generics from the CSM dex.

There's really only 2 things I can gather from the 21 pages of both sides bitching back and forth at the other and if someone from the "Sons are dead" side can try and fill the blanks in, I'd appreciate it:
1) We got models, but they weren't Thousand Sons special snowflake marine versions of existing CSM units and this has caused some people to throw their toys out of the pram before seeing any solid information be somewhat dissapointed that non-marine forces are present to any notable degree in the 'dex
2) There's a lot of disagreement on what fluff is relevant and if the title was changed to "The addition of various flavours of gor doesn't match the vision I had for my Thousand Sons army", nobody would have cared and there would have been a small handful of replies at best.

For those of you who are unhappy with how things have panned out so far, I ask you this: Would you have been happier if we had a) gotten a codex only and 0 new models (thus keeping the "focus" on the marine portion of the Sons in your eyes), or b) the release as you've seen it so far where you have the option of taking some of the new units or not at your discretion? Please note that there is no 3rd option, it's a) or b) only.

Ive already answered that a dozen times. And so again here we go. Nobody is complaining that we got Gors added to the army. The copy paste from AoS is lazy. The lack of any expansion of Thousand Sons proper is bad. I'm happy to have these Gor adds because I like the models. However, the direction of the army feels like they are focusing on Gors with Thousand Sons support.

 nintura wrote:

Since when do we start counting Named Characters?

Since always? Why wouldn't we count them?

And how many people bitch when you bring Maggie?

What that has to do with anything?

You're also forgetting Skyfires.

They're the same kit than the Enlightened. It might be even the same datasheet with a weapon option (of that I'm not sure.)

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Since when do we start counting Named Characters?

Since always? Why wouldn't we count them?

And how many people bitch when you bring Maggie?

What that has to do with anything?

You're also forgetting Skyfires.

They're the same kit than the Enlightened. It might be even the same datasheet with a weapon option (of that I'm not sure.)

Because you can't make an army out of them? Some organizations don't allow them?

look, you believe what you want. We got what we did, and we can't change it. I'm not going to change your mind, you're not gonna change mine.

 nintura wrote:

Because you can't make an army out of them?

So? They can still be part of your army, and in case of these two very expensive characters, quite substantial portion of the army.

Some organizations don't allow them?

Not really GW's fault if player themselves decide to place inane bans.


The amount of goalpost shifting you're engaging is pretty damn extensive.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Because you can't make an army out of them?

So? They can still be part of your army, and in case of these two very expensive characters, quite substantial portion of the army.

Some organizations don't allow them?

Not really GW's fault if player themselves decide to place inane bans.


The amount of goalpost shifting you're engaging is pretty damn extensive.

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Welcome to the world of 8th edition GK, where we all are useless psykers.

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Because you can't make an army out of them?

So? They can still be part of your army, and in case of these two very expensive characters, quite substantial portion of the army.

Some organizations don't allow them?

Not really GW's fault if player themselves decide to place inane bans.


The amount of goalpost shifting you're engaging is pretty damn extensive.

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Considering the post you just made is an ad hominem attack, instead of about the argument itself, that might explain why.

Again, the fact that you chose not to deal with the argument and the very valid point about special characters still being "unique", disproving how there's more Tzaangor units than TS ones, is telling.

 nintura wrote:

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Look, if you don't want to get challenged, then don't make blatantly fallacious claims. Things like number of kits are facts. This is not America, facts are not just opinions. As for your kids, if they're six they probably have no trouble grasping that five is more than three, so in that sense I think we would get along fine.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Look, if you don't want to get challenged, then don't make blatantly fallacious claims. Things like number of kits are facts. This is not America, facts are not just opinions. As for your kids, if they're six they probably have no trouble grasping that five is more than three, so in that sense I think we would get along fine.

Okay, you just managed to insult a fair number of users in here that aren't him with that claim.

It was not an reference to Americans in general, merely to certain currently prevailing trends in the political discourse of that country. But you're right that it was an unnecessary addition.

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

I never said any models are good or bad....

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Look, if you don't want to get challenged, then don't make blatantly fallacious claims. Things like number of kits are facts. This is not America, facts are not just opinions. As for your kids, if they're six they probably have no trouble grasping that five is more than three, so in that sense I think we would get along fine.

Okay, you just managed to insult a fair number of users in here that aren't him with that claim.

Agreed. Time to bring Finland some fire and fury and freedom.
We need to build a wall to keep those Fins from coming here. Those Fins... Always trying to escape their gakhole country.
Now where's my beer and shotgun? I need to hit up Wal-Mart for a new tarp for my fourwheeler and a can of bait.

I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.

Back to the topic:
Imo the TS suffer from the MW mechanic only in the psychic phase the most. In the 7th edition you had psychic powers for everything: anti-tank/anti-horde/mobility spells etc. If you have a psychic solution to all problems a full psyker army like the TS can work.
And this is also what appealed to me in the 7th. If thousands sons needed something done they turn to psychic powers.

But in the 8th edition we are limited to mortal wound spells. Which is very good against elite armies but not against armies with a high model count. So in order to keep these powers somewhat relevant, GW make these powers function as "sniper rifles" to take out characters.
Which i feel is rather out of place for psychic powers.

You also see it if you look at the tzeentch daemon codex. Which i think is a good showcase for what GW has in mind for psychic heavy armies:
1. Not a lot of changes to the psychic powers. Just expanded the list a bit but no real buffs to the excising ones.
2. The "targeted smites" require a WC of 8+ which makes it only effective sticking it on stuff with a with a +2 to cast (magnus/LoC/Kairos).
On the other hand magnus needs his +1 invul/warptime/-1 to hit so perhaps just stick Doombolt on some rubrics and hope you get lucky once or twice per game.
3. As for the question how to deal with high model count armies. Tzeentch got a lot of buffs in shooting/assault and i think we will be no different. And we also know how they will do it, in the form of tzaangors.

Overall not too exciting stuff imho. Ironically to me they will become like every other 40k army. Mostly a shooting/assault army with some psychic support. They only difference is that we do not have/get a power armored model army.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3.

Tzaangor Kits:
1) Shaman
2) Enlightened
3) Regular Tzaangors

Three kits.


Thousand Sons Unique Marine Kits:
1) Rubrics
2) Scarab Terminators
3) Exalted Sorcerers
4) Ahriman
5) Magnus

Five kits.

So even if we accept your bs limit of not counting common chaos marine units such as Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes and Predators, there are still more Thousand Sons marine kits than Tzaangor kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:

Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy.

There you go:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Rhino-Doors
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Legion-Rhino-Doors-and-Frontplate-2017

The reason we are not counting Generic CSM units is because they are generic CSM units. We are talking about units unique to the army which can be taken repeatedly. Ahriman is and Exalted beefed up a bit. Maguns is an army unto himself and is hardly some you would take more then 1 of(if you could).

There are 3 TS units right now Exalted, Rubrics, and SOT. Rubrics and SOT fill the same role, Exalted fill a different role, but there are huge gaps in our army. Those are being filled with Tzaangor units and a Giant Spawn, not any kind of Rubric unit.

Also, it appers there are 2 variants of the Enlightened a melee version and a ranged version. So thats 2 Tzaangors units there, then regular Tzaangors, then the Shaman, 4 units in total compared to the 3.

There is no reason to have the Shaman, none. Exalted Kit comes with a bunch of bits, you could have easily created an elite unit that buffed units and the shaman never enters the picture. 1k sons have wanted a Psyker Dread for some time now which would give us an actual antitank option. Just doing those 2 things there would completely change the how the serup would work for our army.

But as it stands our "chaff" unit is neither chaff nor TS, our Rubrics are our chaff, and SOT are a worse version of the Rubrics. Were getting 3 new Tzzangor units which will fill FA slots. These two units fill at least 2 roles, anti-vehicle and general backline disruption, Tzaangors are anti-horde and objective holding. Our Rubrics do what? The're "difficult" to kill and good at killing things in the open that don't have an invul save, but low str keeps them from killing anything noticible, unless you use CP on them and even then it only affects 1 unit.

The simple fact is we have had the same problem since index release. Our Rubrics die easily to OC Plasma and our "chaff" has an invul save. No one is going to shoot AP - at a model that has a 2+ save and no one is going to shoot an AP -3 weapon at a unit that has only an Invul save. Weaver of fates is the only thing we had to help with this and we can only cast it once. Which means one of our units is going to be left vulnurable. We have no LD buffs or mitigation from morale losses so taking large units is a bad idea. Tzaangors are also a bit slow, and in squads of more then 10

We have needed a way to fix these problems. So what did we get Glamour, -1 to hit, perfect for our Rubrics keeps them alive longer AND makes shooting plasma at them a hazard due to increased risk of Gets Hot!

Mutalith blows up on death and seems to be fast, it has an aura that buffs melee units more then likley. So it will draw fire off the Tzaangors while they move up.

Now we just need anti tank which the Skyfires do well. But they could have easily added a 3 man squad of SOT with Soul Reapers and Hellfyre Racks they have the models for it already. Slap it in a new box and sell that. Nope, Tzaangors with Discs great, more models to buy.

Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.

The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I informed you thusly

I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/21/next-weeks-pre-orders-ever-changing-ever-vigilant/

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

I never said any models are good or bad....

No, but deeper in you said "the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers" , which was called out by the other guy.

So, sure, we didn't get new rubrics, but the ones we do have potentially got way more interesting.