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Once CA is officially out, Triarch stalkers, destroyers, and TessArks to a lesser degree all work roughly efficiently now

 Sasori wrote:
Here is what I have right now:

Spoiler:

it's 2 points over, but I am very close

Battalion
Lord- Staff of Light 75
Overlord- Staff of light 94
Immortals x10
Immortals x10
Immortals x10
Triach Stalker- HGC
Triarch Stalker- HGC
6x Destroyers Gauss Cannon

Spearhead:
Cryptek- Chronometron
DD Ark
DD Ark
DD Ark
I'll need to recheck my math at somepoint, but I think that is a bout right, I will need to juggle around the wargear a bit though to make it under 2k.

Yeah, all you'd need to do is swap one of those Staff of Light for a cheaper weapon and you'd be fine.

Werekill wrote:
Yup! You can drop from the Scythe and charge. It counts as a normal disembarkment from a transport now, thanks to the Big FAQ 2.

Can you drop from Scythe, move, AND charge in the same turn, though?

 vipoid wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

List looks interesing but i do not see anti-tank. You need DDA's

Is there really no option for us for anti-vehicle besides sodding DDAs?

Well, you could take H. Destroyers instead, now that they're a bit cheaper.
They're still decent at killing tanks... they're just not so great at staying alive.

 vipoid wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

List looks interesing but i do not see anti-tank. You need DDA's

Is there really no option for us for anti-vehicle besides sodding DDAs?

There are other options. It's just many people were already running them as the primary Anti-tank option, and they only got better with the points drops. It's also one of the best units we have right now, so you are of course going to see it mentioned a lot.

Keep in mind with the loss of the Gauss special rule and the way vehicles now work in 8th, we lost a lot of our effective anti-tank options. Luckily we gained some back in the latest CA approved.

That being said, the HGC Stalker is now only 115 points, which is really good. Destroyers can be used for this as well, and now heavy destroyers are the same price so you can mix them in. The Nightscyhte+Scythe guard has been mentioned as an expensive but effective option for removing a lot of wounds on vehicles. Wraiths can deal with some vehicles in close combat as well, thanks to the flat damage 2.

Then if you consider forgeworld we have a few more options like the Tesseract Ark and the various pylons.

vipoid wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

List looks interesing but i do not see anti-tank. You need DDA's

Is there really no option for us for anti-vehicle besides sodding DDAs?

Sadly, no. I miss the old days of any and all Gauss being our anti-vehicle. We have such a huge gap in our design now that it's gone. What a sadly linear army we are nowadays.

We DO have Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, the Stalker, and the Doom Scythe, though. Only the regular Destroyers escaped a points change. These are just overshadowed now with just how cheap how DDA is.

skoffs wrote:

Werekill wrote:
Yup! You can drop from the Scythe and charge. It counts as a normal disembarkment from a transport now, thanks to the Big FAQ 2.

Can you drop from Scythe, move, AND charge in the same turn, though?

Yes, that is how Disembarking from a transport works.

Sasori wrote:
That being said, the HGC Stalker is now only 115 points, which is really good.

Minor correction here: the HGC Stalker is 125. Still a massive buff though, and I think it rockets them into viability.

Speaking of the Triarch Stalker, I decided to dig mine out and build it so I can test it out in my next game. Really dislike the dude sitting up top (which is why I never built it in the first place) so I've done a little conversion using a spare Wraith

I like the Heat Ray myself for its versitility

 Sasori wrote:
...
That being said, the HGC Stalker is now only 115 points, which is really good.

125, still very good. You can get it down to 115 if you take the particle version.

I still think Destroyers are going to be better than Heavy Destroyers, maybe if you're taking 12 Destroyers you take one full squad and then 2x3 heavies, but I would never put a heavy destroyer in my first unit of 6 Destroyers, they simply don't benefit half as much from Extermination Protocols. As for Sautekh Destroyers being bad, I thoroughly disagree, get 12 of them in cover or better yet some of them out of LOS and you're very likely to have a full squad of 6 ready turn 1, while also having more of your other units ready to shoot after your opponent's first shooting phase if they shoot at your Destroyers. Nephrekh Destroyers are only valid if you're running only single squad of 6 and you have no other juicy targets (Praetorians, Night Scythes or Monolith with models inside, Heavy Destroyers or a Seraptek Heavy Construct).

Not liking DDAs sucks, but considering how much better Doom Scythes got I'd proxy them and see what happened in a couple of games, they're going to be quite good against melee lists. A single Gauss Pylon can often more than get the job done, that leaves you with 1500 pts worth of anti-Infantry which is brutal against many opponents. Enough for 60 Immortals and a couple of Triarch Stalkers, one of them with a Heat Ray, so yes I think 3xDDA is mandatory in a competitive list, but that's because of the versatility rather than the pure anti-vehicle damage output, those 20 shots at 12" can really help out against some opponents. 3 Heavy Destroyers within 6" of a Lord still output more AV firepower than a DDA, albeit only at a range between 13-36", they're also far more reliable, it's hard to factor in how little a high-roll on a DDA matters, more smaller squads means less overkill. If you didn't run a Vault before you don't need to run DDAs now.

Cynista wrote:Speaking of the Triarch Stalker, I decided to dig mine out and build it so I can test it out in my next game. Really dislike the dude sitting up top (which is why I never built it in the first place) so I've done a little conversion using a spare Wraith

I like the Heat Ray myself for its versitility

Pretty cool conversion! I dig it.

I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of the Ray. The armies you want to use it against, hordes, will chew right through the QS on the Stalker. Then the 24" range on the anti-vehicle mode means you have to move if you want to hit units, lowering yourself to a BS 4+.

This does beg the question, however, on if moving the stalker is a bad idea. It has decent melee plus a 10" move, so maybe using it as an HGC turret is the wrong call? 3 attacks at S7 Ap -1 D3 is nothing to sneeze at, especially with living metal, quantum shielding, and T6 W10. Heck, using the Particle Shredder means you have all that for 115 points.

 vipoid wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

List looks interesing but i do not see anti-tank. You need DDA's

Is there really no option for us for anti-vehicle besides sodding DDAs?

You have Destroyers (Only good with EP), Heavy Destroyers, DDAs, Doom Scythes, and Stalkers with Heat Ray or HGC really as your options at range.
Heavies, Doom Scythes, DDAs, and Stalkers are getting cheaper with CA. This will likely mean the math will swing towards these options, and away from EP destroyers being a crutch unit.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:

torblind wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

frackgrenade wrote:
On the topic of trying to get lychguard into combat, has anyone tried deciever redeploying a nightscythe to 12 inches away, then lychguard get out 8 and its a 4 inch charge? Turn one straight into combat.


Probably still way to many points on a lacklustre unit but could be interesting. Could double up and do it with two scythes

This....isn't a bad idea....can they charge if the Night Scythe was redeployed...since the Night Scythe Specifically is NOT a transport?

Just, if you go second, it goes boom and your LG are lost, no emergency deploy turn 1.

That's easy enough though, considering the redeploy happens AFTER seizing, if you go second just don't redeploy the Nightscythe, redeploy some other unit (at this point redeploying Shieldguard works well because they're durable enough to take the fire) and use the Nightscythe like you normally would.

They could still plunk down the transport in your own deployment zone - no QS to protect it.

 skoffs wrote:

Can you drop from Scythe, move, AND charge in the same turn, though?

Invasion beam Counts as disembarking from a transport for all rules purposes, and you can disembark, move and charge from a transport. They have mostly fixed Tomb world deploy with the big fall FAQ, the only outstanding issue seems to be that you have to deploy by the end of turn 3.

 Grimgold wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Can you drop from Scythe, move, AND charge in the same turn, though?

Invasion beam Counts as disembarking from a transport for all rules purposes, and you can disembark, move and charge from a transport. They have mostly fixed Tomb world deploy with the big fall FAQ, the only outstanding issue seems to be that you have to deploy by the end of turn 3.

No it doesn't. A unit that has arrived from Reinforcements via Invasion Beams counts as having disembarked from a transport.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Can you drop from Scythe, move, AND charge in the same turn, though?

Invasion beam Counts as disembarking from a transport for all rules purposes, and you can disembark, move and charge from a transport. They have mostly fixed Tomb world deploy with the big fall FAQ, the only outstanding issue seems to be that you have to deploy by the end of turn 3.

No it doesn't. A unit that has arrived from Reinforcements via Invasion Beams counts as having disembarked from a transport.

He meant to point out that you have to throw them out by turn 3, even of you want to keep them in longer.

 Werekill wrote:

Cynista wrote:Speaking of the Triarch Stalker, I decided to dig mine out and build it so I can test it out in my next game. Really dislike the dude sitting up top (which is why I never built it in the first place) so I've done a little conversion using a spare Wraith

I like the Heat Ray myself for its versitility

Pretty cool conversion! I dig it.

I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of the Ray. The armies you want to use it against, hordes, will chew right through the QS on the Stalker. Then the 24" range on the anti-vehicle mode means you have to move if you want to hit units, lowering yourself to a BS 4+.

This does beg the question, however, on if moving the stalker is a bad idea. It has decent melee plus a 10" move, so maybe using it as an HGC turret is the wrong call? 3 attacks at S7 Ap -1 D3 is nothing to sneeze at, especially with living metal, quantum shielding, and T6 W10. Heck, using the Particle Shredder means you have all that for 115 points.

Yeah I mean, I'll be walking mine up the table so BS4+ is just something I'll have to deal with. I'll need it to be seen as a threat so my Destroyers might last an extra round. I don't really face CC hordes in my meta anyways. I just wish I could make it Novokh or Sautekh, it would then be an auto-include

Cynista wrote:

Yeah I mean, I'll be walking mine up the table so BS4+ is just something I'll have to deal with. I'll need it to be seen as a threat so my Destroyers might last an extra round. I don't really face CC hordes in my meta anyways. I just wish I could make it Novokh or Sautekh, it would then be an auto-include

On the Stalker weapons: I just compiled a spreadsheet with numbers for Wounds, damage, etc for each Stalker weapon option. I'm attaching it here instead of using imgur because I'm at work, unfortunately.

Honestly I see much less reason not to take the Particle Shredder. For 10 points more with the HGC, you only gain +1.1 damage on average against Vehicles. Only +0.8 with knights.

The heat ray also compares much more favorably now, equivalent to the HGC when not at half range unless shooting at Knights (+0.5 for HGC). In fact, moving with the Heat Ray only loses you 0.8 damage!

Overall, it seems that Heat Ray plus aggressive movement isn't a bad idea, nor is the Shredder. Unless you absolutely need the 36", I think the Heat Ray is the best option overall.

Edit: On second thought, 36" plus 10" move means you can tag basically anything for your DDAs. The HGC is much better if you're only focused on the reroll 1's.

Added benefit, the heat ray doubles as a 2d6 heavy flamer for close encounters. Which is nice.

Exactly, iGuy. I think the Heat Ray is the best offensive option, unless you REALLY want the Reroll 1's.

If you're taking them to support DDA³ then you're typically going to be wanting them armed with HGCs.
Otherwise, yeah, Heat Ray all the way.

I'm fond of Heat Stalker and 2x AnniBarges

That used to be a flank force for me

now, add a CloakTek and that's >500 points that will look after itself and have some fun along the way, especially if it brings another big gun futher back

Think i might need to buy two more for heat rays. Kinda stuck the Gauss cannons on when brought them a few years back lol.

Plus side, yay more reasons to buy models

On another note.
Was looking at the new mission shown on the community site, and never noticed you set your whole army up in one go, and who sets up first goes first. Though if setting up second you choose the map/deployment and can counter set up.

Think this is a huge reason to give extra value to the deceiver, Not only could he help you counter the counter set up. but if going second and you los block everything. you at least have chance to move things into better positions if the opponent lets you go first as a result

 skoffs wrote:
If you're taking them to support DDA³ then you're typically going to be wanting them armed with HGCs.
Otherwise, yeah, Heat Ray all the way.

Average table size is 4' x 6', right? Stalker full movement + heat ray range is 34", or ~2.8'. That's nearly one side to the other (not lengthwise), and that's before you account for your deployment zone not being at the edge of the table. Lengthwise deployment, of course, is a bit different, but you still get a hefty deployment zone with that.

Given the typical deployment zones, decent placement of the stalker should let you still get your buffs. Especially given that many people keep the HGC stalker still and in the back, acting as more of a turret.

moonsmite wrote:
Think i might need to buy two more for heat rays. Kinda stuck the Gauss cannons on when brought them a few years back lol.

Plus side, yay more reasons to buy models

If it helps, the Heat Ray isn't THAT much better. The HGC is extremely close and also has the benefit of range.

Anni barge is around 110pts right now right?
It has QS, 8W, T6, 4+ save. And move 12, 11 S7 Tesla shots.
And living metal.

I think it's better than immortals and warriors.

3xDDA + 2xStalkers + Destroyers working on heavy targets, 3 Anni barges and Tomb Blades capturing objectives and working on small ones.

I'm thinking on deploying DDA's not fully back field because their 2x10 arrays are very nice support too!

 Grimgold wrote:


Here is the first draft of the list I'm thinking about:

Spoiler:

-->Nephrek battalion<--
-=HQ=-
Lord - 65 (74)
+Voidblade - 6

Overlord - 84 (93)
+Warscythe - 9

-=Troops=-
Immortal x10 - 80 (150)
+tesla carbine x10 - 70

Immortals x10 - 80 (150)
+gauss blasters x10 - 70

warriors x10 - 110

-=Fast attack=-
destroyers x6 - 300

-->Novokh Outrider<--
-=HQ=-
Overlord - 84 (93)
Warlord - Crimson haze
Artifact - Veil of Darkness
+Warscythe - 9

-=Elites=-
lychguard x10 190 (280)
+warscythe x10 90

-=fast attack=-
Wraiths x6 288

scarabs x6 78

Tomb Blades x 9 126 (252)
+Gauss Blaster x 18 126

-=transport=-
night scythe 135

*edit* math hammer
As for the damage output of the lychguard, MWBD and disembark happen at the same time, so they can have it up for the fight phase, assuming the target is a knight or something like it, using disruption fields for 1 cp, so too specify everything that's going on 2+ to hit, reroll failed to hit, and 6's on either the original roll or the rerolls generate an extra hit:

(5/6 + (1/6 * 5/6) + (1/6 * 5/6) + (1/6 * 1/6 * 5/6)) = 1.11 hits per attack so 22.2 hits on average (can be higher if the dice are hot)
wounding on 4s with no save means: 22.2 * 1/2 * 2 = 22.2 damage on average
Then overlord will do an average of three-ish damage, but even if he does 2 it's still a dead knight. The points seem ok, counting overlord and night scythe this is just over a 1:1 ratio of attacker commitment to enemy points destroyed, which is as good as it gets in 8th ed 40k. Then if they aren't wiped off of the board, they get to veil and do it again.

MWBD happens at the beginning of your turn; disembark happens in the movement phase. These are not the same time, so one can't put MWBD on them unfortunately.

That said, it still isn't that bad
(4/6 + (2/6 * 4/6) + (1/6 * 4/6) + (1/6 * 2/6 * 4/6)) = 1.04 hits per attack

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Anni barge is around 110pts right now right?
It has QS, 8W, T6, 4+ save. And move 12, 11 S7 Tesla shots.
And living metal.

I think it's better than immortals and warriors.

3xDDA + 2xStalkers + Destroyers working on heavy targets, 3 Anni barges and Tomb Blades capturing objectives and working on small ones.

I'm thinking on deploying DDA's not fully back field because their 2x10 arrays are very nice support too!

Base Anni Barge is 100, +20 for Gauss Blaster or +13 for Tesla cannon. So the minimum is 113 for Tesla, 120 for Gauss/

Comparable points in Immortals is 120 for 8. That's 8 S5 Tesla shots with RP and Objective Secured, but it can also get the MWBD buff while the Barge can't.

The only downside I can see is that the Anni Barge takes up a Heavy slot, and it faces stiff competition there.

 Werekill wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Anni barge is around 110pts right now right?
It has QS, 8W, T6, 4+ save. And move 12, 11 S7 Tesla shots.
And living metal.

I think it's better than immortals and warriors.

3xDDA + 2xStalkers + Destroyers working on heavy targets, 3 Anni barges and Tomb Blades capturing objectives and working on small ones.

I'm thinking on deploying DDA's not fully back field because their 2x10 arrays are very nice support too!

Base Anni Barge is 100, +20 for Gauss Blaster or +13 for Tesla cannon. So the minimum is 113 for Tesla, 120 for Gauss/

Comparable points in Immortals is 120 for 8. That's 8 S5 Tesla shots with RP and Objective Secured, but it can also get the MWBD buff while the Barge can't.

The only downside I can see is that the Anni Barge takes up a Heavy slot, and it faces stiff competition there.

Quick correction, each tesla carbine fires twice. So 8 immortals is 120 points, but 16 shots at STR 5, Tesla, and can get MWBD
vs 8 STR 7 Shots, and 3 str 5 shots.

Its...roughly comparable before MWBD, and heavily skewed for the immortals after MWBD. Might be slightly more durable if you don't have much terrain, and your QS is good.

Thanks for the correction; I'm not as familiar with Tesla immortals, due to mine being modeled as Gauss.

I often see that it's hard for my immortals to get delivery of their shots, with 12 barge move it is much easier. And S7 wounds much more easy than S5 T3.

Also Immortals are T4 and barge is T6. If opponent shoots barge with heavy weapons - that's cool. This means destroyers, Stalkers and DDA's are safe.

MWBD is great. Right now i'm trying to build my list with 1 HQ (Barge) so may take anni barges + 1 unit of infantry (10 immortals or 20 warriors) OR just use MWBD to Destroyers.

What i do not like about Tesla that -1 to hit just makes it useless. Tesla does not have AP so for example marines in cover will have 2+ save :\

 vict0988 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
...
That being said, the HGC Stalker is now only 115 points, which is really good.

125, still very good. You can get it down to 115 if you take the particle version.

I still think Destroyers are going to be better than Heavy Destroyers, maybe if you're taking 12 Destroyers you take one full squad and then 2x3 heavies, but I would never put a heavy destroyer in my first unit of 6 Destroyers, they simply don't benefit half as much from Extermination Protocols. As for Sautekh Destroyers being bad, I thoroughly disagree, get 12 of them in cover or better yet some of them out of LOS and you're very likely to have a full squad of 6 ready turn 1, while also having more of your other units ready to shoot after your opponent's first shooting phase if they shoot at your Destroyers. Nephrekh Destroyers are only valid if you're running only single squad of 6 and you have no other juicy targets (Praetorians, Night Scythes or Monolith with models inside, Heavy Destroyers or a Seraptek Heavy Construct).

Not liking DDAs sucks, but considering how much better Doom Scythes got I'd proxy them and see what happened in a couple of games, they're going to be quite good against melee lists. A single Gauss Pylon can often more than get the job done, that leaves you with 1500 pts worth of anti-Infantry which is brutal against many opponents. Enough for 60 Immortals and a couple of Triarch Stalkers, one of them with a Heat Ray, so yes I think 3xDDA is mandatory in a competitive list, but that's because of the versatility rather than the pure anti-vehicle damage output, those 20 shots at 12" can really help out against some opponents. 3 Heavy Destroyers within 6" of a Lord still output more AV firepower than a DDA, albeit only at a range between 13-36", they're also far more reliable, it's hard to factor in how little a high-roll on a DDA matters, more smaller squads means less overkill. If you didn't run a Vault before you don't need to run DDAs now.

Yeah, I use battlescribe as a crutch for points and it shows right now, I keep getting all my points mixed up!

I agree, I don't think Heavy destroyers are going to make a huge impact. I think they are just a bit too fragile for their points right now. I still think the Doomscythe is too expensive for what it does. Maybe if it was D3 Autohits or something, I could see it. As is, it's just too expensive, even with the destructors tagged on.



With that out of the way, what is everyones feelings on Immotekh? I am really starting to come around on him, but right now finding room is really difficult. He comes with an extra command point, and MWBDing two immortal squads a turn is pretty huge. Just not sure what to cut to make for him. I plan on having the DD Arks be Sautekh, so I am not really loosing anything.

I think Immotekh is good option right now.
2 MWBD, +1 CP and his Storm ability make him good option.

I might try him with immortals or/and warriors.
Now i want to play 1 HQ, he is nice.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I often see that it's hard for my immortals to get delivery of their shots, with 12 barge move it is much easier. And S7 wounds much more easy than S5 T3.

Also Immortals are T4 and barge is T6. If opponent shoots barge with heavy weapons - that's cool. This means destroyers, Stalkers and DDA's are safe.

MWBD is great. Right now i'm trying to build my list with 1 HQ (Barge) so may take anni barges + 1 unit of infantry (10 immortals or 20 warriors) OR just use MWBD to Destroyers.

What i do not like about Tesla that -1 to hit just makes it useless. Tesla does not have AP so for example marines in cover will have 2+ save :\

One additional point, the Barge can suffer 7 wounds and still fire at full power, with its 8 + 3 shots. If your 8 tesla immortals suffer 7 wounds, they are firing only 2 shots.

Your barge will trinkle back wounds from its Living Metal ability that it is not unlike the returns from RP for the immortals.

That being said, a light vehicle with Fly does play a distinctly different role than 10 foot slogging infantry. Their preferred shooting targets may be similar, but that's only part of what makes up their battle value.

A more relevant comparison for the Barge may be its vaule in Tesla Tomb Blades

Between the three, tesla blades, tesla immortals and the tesla barge, they share some similarities but excel at different tasks. Tesla immortals are awesome at clearing hordes. Tomb Blades are durable, kill t-shirt save infantry too but want to grab objectives and threaten to lock things that don't want to be in CC. Barges are more sturdy, can jump to objectives and can take on higher T targets (of which there aren't that many well suited, agreeably, and also threaten CC much like the tomb blades. The Barge (And tesla immortals in cover) would love it if you shoot lascannons at them. The tomb blades would cringe.

On the other hand, a well placed sentinel for example, can keep 10 Tesla Immortals out of the battle (charging them) unless they get help (fall back and others shoot it). A barge would jump out of CC and fry that sentinel and move on barely without noticing.

Depending on your local meta and the overall strategy for your army, either may suit your needs best.

torblind wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I often see that it's hard for my immortals to get delivery of their shots, with 12 barge move it is much easier. And S7 wounds much more easy than S5 T3.

Also Immortals are T4 and barge is T6. If opponent shoots barge with heavy weapons - that's cool. This means destroyers, Stalkers and DDA's are safe.

MWBD is great. Right now i'm trying to build my list with 1 HQ (Barge) so may take anni barges + 1 unit of infantry (10 immortals or 20 warriors) OR just use MWBD to Destroyers.

What i do not like about Tesla that -1 to hit just makes it useless. Tesla does not have AP so for example marines in cover will have 2+ save :\

One additional point, the Barge can suffer 7 wounds and still fire at full power, with its 8 + 3 shots. If your 8 tesla immortals suffer 7 wounds, they are firing only 2 shots.

Your barge will trinkle back wounds from its Living Metal ability that it is not unlike the returns from RP for the immortals.

That being said, a light vehicle with Fly does play a distinctly different role than 10 foot slogging infantry. Their preferred shooting targets may be similar, but that's only part of what makes up their battle value.

Great analysis. I think the Barges can serve a function that is needed (at least in what I am running), zipping up, helping with clearing screens, trying to snipe out poorly placed support characters and reaching hard to get to spots with a high volume of shots. I was border line on them before the points drop but now they seemed price right. Plus, I have fond memories of shooting tesla destructors in previous editions.