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So I got to play a game this Christmas and my friend wanted to proxy a model before he bought it and said I could do the same. I decide to try out a riptide, he plays calger and something else.

Played through the game and I wasn't really feeling the riptide. How is a riptide supposed to be better then 3 crisis suits? The crisis suits have 1 more wound, can throw out more shots, costs less points no matter what you do to it, and can still be made to hunt av14s. Am I missing something or is a riptide simply not as good as people make it sound?

Riptides benefit from not being able to be one shotted by a Meltagun, having excellent MC rules and they have a veritable cornucopia of ways of not taking their lumps.

Riptides are significantly (as in a bloody lot, probably way too much for their points) harder to kill than their points cost in Crisis suits. An equivalent points worth of crisis suits is much killier, and about as maneuverable (because when does the riptide actually use it's super thrust move...I have and it's hilarious but it's almost never the right option). Crisis suits are also much less dependent on markerlights as a support option.

Basically you take the riptide as a brick, and a lot of people think riptides are the second coming of the Emperor so they go on tilt when they see one across the table from them, which can get you ahead in the psychological warfare department (if that's the kind of player you are). I will say that in 6th edition they were significantly better because it was easier to support them both because independent characters could join them (they are technically a unit even if you don't take the drones) and because Eldar battle brother psychic powers made them absurd (back when non imperial factions got to use battle brother craziness)

Being T6 and having a 2+/5++ that can get 3++ and FNP is the big thing you're missing. The Riptide's big thing is being obnoxiously hard to kill while still being a legitimate threat most units in the game. Crisis suits may have more damage in a single turn but when they're dead turn 3 and the riptide is still trucking along at turn 6, the riptide is the one that did more damage in the long run.

Off the top of my head a crisis suit with two plasma rifles comes in around 52 points.

So a full squad of 3 is going to cost 156 points

The riptide with Ion Acc, Stim Injector and EWO is 225 points.

For the extra points you can get another crisis suit with same loadout as above and a couple points to spare. Lets ass that suit to the unit taking it beyond max number but whatever.

Each suit has 4 shots and BS3. At 12" range (all plasma rifles get rapid fire, maximizing their potential):

So: 16 shots, 8 hits, 6.66 wounds vs T4.

The Ion Acc large blast template at BS 3 hits 4 guys on average, so 3.33 wounds with insta-kill T4. And then the RIptide also has a TL-plasma rifle, so thats 2 shots, 1.5 hits, 1.24 wounds. Total: 4.58 wounds vs T4.

Now the same scenario from ranges further than 12":

So: 8 shots, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds vs T4.

The Ion Acc large blast template at BS 3 hits 4 guys on average, so 3.33 wounds with insta-kill T4. And then the RIptide also has a TL-plasma rifle, so thats 1 shot, 0.75 hits, 0.62 wounds. Total: 3.95 wounds vs T4.

As you can see, the Riptide outperforms a full complement of plasma-rifle crisis suits (and an additional suit) at ranges 12"-24"

It is outdone by the crisis suits at ranged < 12", but OTOH the Riptide has many other bonuses such as:

- immunity from S8 insta-kill
- can do its job from safer distances
- T4 insta-kill with its big blast weapon
- The riptide can glass deepstriking terminators thanks to EWO
- is an MC, and thus better in cc
- Riptide has a 5++ FNP save
- Riptide has a 5+ inv save
- Riptide can boos its inv. save to 3++ and if it fails the reactor roll, it can still use FNP
- your firepower does not dwindle until the last wound is taken on the Riptide.

In the following area both units have their pros and cons:

- Riptide has a 2+ armor save
- Crisis suits have 3 more wounds
- Riptide is T6, so overall I think the riptide is more survivable
- Crisis suits benefit hugely from markerlights, while the damage output gains of a riptide is not that significant
- At the same time, this means a riptide can operate with relative disregard to the rest of your army.

Crisis suits further have the following drawbacks:

- the crisis suits usually DS for maximum potential and thus will not be available on turn 1 onward.
- if the crisis suits instead use JSJ strategy, then their firepower is outdone by the riptide (see above)

How on earth are you arriving at 4 hits on average for the ion accelerator (or more accurately, how are you arriving at that number for targets you actually want to shoot it at)? Ignoring any markerlights a BS3 blast will scatter 2.7 inches on average, taking into account the chance of rolling a hit. That is larger than the radius of a large blast template, so on average nothing you actually put the template over will get hit (thus removing a huge portion of its utility against deep striking terminators and other deep striking infantry). This doesn't factor in the "gets hot" rule on the ion accelerator, so you will have even less chance of getting a good hit.

If you are shooting the ion accelerator at a unit that is so large that you can have that kind of scatter and still hit an average of 4 models then plasma rifles are probably not the weapon you want to compare it against on battlesuits, and in fact you most likely wouldn't be shooting at that unit with battlesuits (or the ion accelerator) at all. That's what fire warriors are for.

1) I was basing the statistic on 25mm bases placed in "normal" blob formation, i.e. neither tightly packed nor purposefully spread out to 2" from one another nor placed as a line etc.

2) you get a full hit 27.77% of the time (theres always a 1/6 chance of your shot missing because you roll a die before firing the shot to see if it gets hot or not). So of the 5/6ths you make it, 1/3rd of it is perfect hit.

Under a perfect hit there usually are 6-7 models.

Of the % of times you scatter, your average scatter distance with BS3 is 4", which is less than the diameter of the big blast marker, so you'll usually end up hitting 1-2 guys that used to be on the edge of the marker when you placed it (partials count, after all). Now what is the mean of 1.5 and 6.5?

That's right... 4.

Riptides are infinitely harder to kill than suits. Who kills more is difficult to debate.... it depends on what you're fighting, what weapons the suits have, etc. But it terms of pure survivability the riptide is miles ahead.

I play DA. Standard bolters are more likely to wound suits, and they have a lower save. Against plasma, the riptide has an invuln and it wounds on a 3+ instead of a 2+. Against missiles, suits have no save and die from the S8. Against las the riptide still has an invuln.

My black knights, which specialize in taking down armored targets? The riptide can throw up 3++ against the plasma guns, and in CC it ignores my armor. The sword the huntmaster carries rips through suits like tin foil.

Even against terminators, the riptide has the chance of using a 3++, and it can actually kill them because it ignores their armor. Suits get squashed, fast.

In general, everything in my codex is better against suits. While suits with a lot of anti-marine weaponry is scary, you need to get well into my weapon range to use it, and close enough that my bikes can easily charge you. A riptide can hide where it pleases, and shrugs off all but the heaviest firepower I can throw at it (especially if it boosts its shields).

2 wounds gone on a healthy riptide, you still have a Riptide and use of its gear.

2 wounds on a healthy squad of just suits, you lose whatever boost to the squad's firepower that dead suit brought plus the threat of a morale check.


If this is a bad example feel free to rip it a new one

Attacked a riptide with a DC dread in melee the other day. Dread whiffs a few, and the tide takes like 1 wound. Smashes back, hits, boom.

Riptides are stupid durable for their cost, while having a range of YES, have the weaponry to go after any kind of target, (I use the smart missiles, so mine can even go after shrouded&stealthed cover-huggers without any lights) and tend to move faster than a cruising vehicle while shooting.

Tips to maximize riptide usefulness:
Do NOT get in melee range.

Don't upgrade the tide too much. 185 just for the IAtide is a steal. EWO is about the only upgrade I'd consider.

Just because it's broken-good doesn't mean it's invincible. Thrust move behind buildings and ruins after you shoot, or back out of (their) range.

Don't kill your own riptide for your opponent. The nova charge is for defending your way of the ninja only, not to be used willy-nilly. Don't nova the IA unless you desperately need an AV 14 cracked. Don't nova-move unless you're trapped and about to get charged. Don't nova secondary unless firing the secondary a second time is like a game winning move. And don't nova 3++ unless you're absolutely sure he's getting some ap2 pain, and you can't escape it with nova boost.

Bear in mind, if you have multiple tides, and I'm gonna drop some melta guys in, I'm gonna go after the guy that fails his nova shield. So if you can't pass all of them, don't try any of them. Just let the t6 5++ monster take his lumps without giving away free wounds.

My big question to the OP would be if he used an Ion Accelerator or the Heavy Burst Cannon?

If you used the IA, did you chose the 3 Str 7 shots or the big blast? If you used the HBC, did you nova charge it and get's hot & failed Nova yourself to death?

 Sir Arun wrote:
1) I was basing the statistic on 25mm bases placed in "normal" blob formation, i.e. neither tightly packed nor purposefully spread out to 2" from one another nor placed as a line etc.

2) you get a full hit 27.77% of the time (theres always a 1/6 chance of your shot missing because you roll a die before firing the shot to see if it gets hot or not). So of the 5/6ths you make it, 1/3rd of it is perfect hit.

Under a perfect hit there usually are 6-7 models.

Of the % of times you scatter, your average scatter distance with BS3 is 4", which is less than the diameter of the big blast marker, so you'll usually end up hitting 1-2 guys that used to be on the edge of the marker when you placed it (partials count, after all). Now what is the mean of 1.5 and 6.5?

That's right... 4.

Alright, let's do this the way you said it out (it is more thorough than my method I will admit), and do it mathematically. I don't know the answer but I am curious.

1/6 of the time you get hot, hit nothing, and might take a wound on your riptide.
5/6*1/3 of the time you do not get hot and roll a hit. So let's say you get 6 models (best case scenario, I have rarely seen more than that under a template, although my experience may not be an accurate judge)
5/6*2/3 of the time you do not get hot and scatter. This one is harder but let's just keep it with 2 models (again best case scenario for how it will usually be used. This will be 0 if you shoot at deep striking infantry).

1/6*0 + 5/6*1/3*6 + 5/6*2/3*2 = 2.77 repeating. On average, best case scenario, you can expect to hit a little less than 3 models per shot, less against deep striking infantry. That is better than I was expecting, but it is not 4.

 dementedwombat wrote:
5/6*2/3 of the time you do not get hot and scatter. This one is harder but let's just keep it with 2 models (again best case scenario for how it will usually be used. This will be 0 if you shoot at deep striking infantry).

And here's your mistake: you're ignoring the fact that you subtract the model's BS from the scatter distance and assuming that an arrow on the scatter die always produces significant scatter. 8.33% of the time you roll an arrow the blast template stays exactly where it is, and 27.7% of the time you'll scatter 2" or less (so you're still hitting the model the template was centered over). And of course these numbers improve significantly if you spend markerlight tokens to increase the Riptide's BS.

Riptides are one of the best units in any army for their points cost, being either under costed or overpowered depending on your point of view. on their own their low BS can mean that their IA isn't as effective as you would like and may be underwhelming, but with markerlight support it can annihilate heavily armoured units in cover by boosting BS and ignoring cover. the long range of the IA means that the limiting factor in these abilities is the (more) limited range of the Marker lights it relies upon to perform at peak efficiency. While this can be true of crisis suits as well, with their increased number of shots they are far less at the mercy of poor dice rolling than the riptide.

The riptide is also insanely tough for its points, with a brilliant armour save, an acceptable invuln which you can boost, and the option to take upgrades that make it deadly to deep strikers and anyone else it might run into, and its an MC which makes it t athreat to anything in CC with it, although limited by the Tau's overall poor CC ability.

Crisis Teams are my favourite unit in the game, and have the ability to be tailored to fill almost any role you can think of except CC beatstick. They can be joined by IC's which means all those wonderful upgrades the Commanders can take will benefit the unit, and makes at least one unit of crisis suits a real threat. Twin linked ignore cover plasma rifles will tear units of MEQ's and TEQ's apart without having to rely on marker lights giving them more in the way of tactical flexibility.

Crisis suits can also be equipped with a wider variety of weapons suiting them for different roles. Twin fusion blaster suits can deepstrike in and take out annoying tanks for a bargain of 52 points each. Burst cannon equipped suits can throw out a hideous number of shots, 36 in total if you take the full load out of drones. They are point for point better value than stealth suits in terms of firepower and while short ranged they can slaughter lightly armoured troops and force loads of saves against MEQ's. Finally you have the Missile pods, cheaper than broadsides with the same S7 hitting power, better maneuverability (but not as tough and with no smart missiles, or missile drones...) making crisis teams perhaps the most flexible unit in the game.

The thing though is that because riptides and crisis suits take the same slot, the riptide is the better unit because its much tougher, the IA is one of the best weapons anyone has, and it is undercosted, most people will take it over the crisis teams. and with support from a mark'o or pathfinders, or both, the Riptide will slaughter units with ease, and resist the return fire.

Where a lot of Tau players fail, is that they take too many riptides, and this stretches the markerlights too far, and canny opponents will prioritize killing pathfinders and markerlight units, and without these, while still tough units for certain, and they still have a decent shooting attack, the riptide loses a lot of its effectiveness.
Crisis teams in comparison, while they still benefit from markerlights, are hurt far less by their absence.

 Peregrine wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
5/6*2/3 of the time you do not get hot and scatter. This one is harder but let's just keep it with 2 models (again best case scenario for how it will usually be used. This will be 0 if you shoot at deep striking infantry).

And here's your mistake: you're ignoring the fact that you subtract the model's BS from the scatter distance and assuming that an arrow on the scatter die always produces significant scatter. 8.33% of the time you roll an arrow the blast template stays exactly where it is, and 27.7% of the time you'll scatter 2" or less (so you're still hitting the model the template was centered over). And of course these numbers improve significantly if you spend markerlight tokens to increase the Riptide's BS.

On average you still scatter 4" though. That is how I was using one "probability bin" to take an average of all possible scatter outcomes, by assuming an average scatter distance. I will of course admit 2 models was a completely made up number based on Arun's original post. We can always get more exact estimates by separating the scatter option into more bins to account for different amounts of scatter and different scatter directions, but without more detailed data on how people space their models I don't know how well such an analysis could be performed.

And I was personally keeping markerlights out of the discussion completely, both because they could also be increasing the BS of crisis suits (which causes a different increase in effectiveness based on the BS to hit mechanic vs the blast scatter mechanic, thus causing an entirely new argument with a new series of mathhammer analyses) and also because my merkerlights tend to be the first thing to die, although that new shipment of Tetras may help that matter some.