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H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think comparing GK's to two units nobody uses is really the best idea...

yeah, oh well
it's just an example

Tempers people, tempers!

Alpharius wrote:Tempers people, tempers!

Agreed.

The rules are the most variable thing involved, so little point in getting worked up until theres something a little more solid.

I think people are viewing the loss of S6 (as we know it, though) too one-dimensionally. Giving Grey Knights power weapons base increases their tactical flexibility against a plethora of armies now. The fact that they might also be Force Weapons makes them very threatening to Death Star units like Thunderwolves, Nobs, Farsight Bombs, and so on. One of the big complaints about the current Grey Knight rules is that they 'excel' against Daemons but aren't built to fight stuff beside that. This is a step, I feel, in the right direction.

Let's wait for the full codex before we worry about Grey Knights not being able to handle Daemons.

But doesn't S6 make them more capable of fighitng everything, given that most things in the game are T4 or lower?

Yes, it does.

You're making a lot of sense to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But doesn't S6 make them more capable of fighitng everything, given that most things in the game are T4 or lower?

S6 is great against vehicles and shooting, but they need to be able to cut through armor. The Justicar may still have access to a S6 version, or a Daemonhammer, or something else we aren't aware of yet because we're just going by scraps here.

Get ready for the nerf bat if you play anything but space wolves.

bhsman wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:But doesn't S6 make them more capable of fighitng everything, given that most things in the game are T4 or lower?

S6 is great against vehicles and shooting, but they need to be able to cut through armor.

Their primary target doesn't wear armour. Taking away a weapon that helps against daemons (and everything else) and replacing it with a weapon that doesn't help against most daemons is stupid.

Which is why they will likely get special rules to help them fight Daemons.

And this, as I said above, is my problem. They don't need special rules to fight Daemons - they wound everything on 2+ with S6, so everything is affected equally. Giving them S4 weapons yet giving them special rules against Daemons will just add more unnecessary special rules to an already cluttered game.

We already have something like that - Space Wolf Runic Weapons wound Daemons on a 2+. I see this as the future of Grey Knights. Another special rule to help them with Daemons where they didn't need to be one because S6 covered that already without hampering their abilities against other armies. Simply being S4 weapons with the 'Runic Weapon' special rule makes them even more specialised and even more worse off than they already are (assuming no other upgrades, of course).

Sorry HBMC.. but what? Daemonhunters are specifically SUPPOSED to be good at fighting daemons. Like, explicitly so.

If they didn't have special abilities vs daemons I would be extremely disappointed. A power weapon with 2+ to wound daemons is perfect.

Your hatred for this concept is total nonsense.

ph34r wrote:Sorry HBMC.. but what? Daemonhunters are specifically SUPPOSED to be good at fighting daemons. Like, explicitly so.

He's saying that making the Daemonhunters inherently good at fighting daemons is better than resorting to kludges.

Making DH inherently good at fighting daemons, like the old book, makes them inherently good at fighting everything.

ph34r wrote:Sorry HBMC.. but what? Daemonhunters are specifically SUPPOSED to be good at fighting daemons. Like, explicitly so.

I know that. And they are. But they don't need to be hamstrung against other opponents because of this. Removing the S6 kinda does that.

ph34r wrote:A power weapon with 2+ to wound daemons is perfect.

But they already have ('cept the regular GK's, who don't have power weapons, but still wound virtually every type of Daemon on a 2+).

ph34r wrote:Your hatred for this concept is total nonsense.

My point, as I have stated several times (but maybe not clearly enough) is that GK's can already do these things and don't need a special rule.

Put it this way:

1. You have GK's with S6.
2. You have GK's with S4, but a special rule that wounds Daemons on a 2+.

What's the net effect here in BOTH situations? GK's wound Daemons on a 2+. The difference is the former is just done via the strength of their weapons, and the latter is done via more special rules. We don't need more special rules, especially when you don't need to add special rules to have GK's achieve what they can already achieve with their base weapons.


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ph34r wrote:Making DH inherently good at fighting daemons, like the old book, makes them inherently good at fighting everything.

It made them inherently good at fighting Eldar, really, but I wouldn't go so far as to call GK's "good" at fighting "everything". They, on a 1-to-1 basis are excellent troops, but their inherent anti-Daemon abilities haven't suddenly turned them into an anti-everything army. Not by a long shot.

So when you think about it that way, the net change is:
vs daemons, better vs greater daemons
vs everything else, better vs elite troops and worse vs orks

One way is a special rule
The other is a USR and a special rule

How is that a problem?

Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

I dont get the whine about possibly losing S6 in favour of S4 Force weapons?

Sure you wound easier with S6 but all you have to do is 1 single wound and you kill anything you hit if you make the psychic test which most likely be on a 10.

Id rather you have S6 vs my T7 6wound creature than S4 Force weapons.

Yiawchuah wrote:2 wound terminator.

Yiawchuah wrote:FNP

Yiawchuah wrote:troop choices.

We still don't know the cost of such bad-asses nor whether they can withstand instant death, lets not whip out the Cheddar just yet...

Interesting, so how have these rumours been known to be reliable?

So that's how 20 models can be competitive at 2,000 points. Its nice to see GW finally start to use some of the wonderful ideas from Codex: Angry Marines!. AnGrey Knights Terminators with Powerfeet for the win!

I read on BOLS that the speculation for release is around March 2011. I cant say how credible the source is though

ph34r wrote:

Yiawchuah wrote:2 wound terminator.

Yiawchuah wrote:FNP

Yiawchuah wrote:troop choices.

Er... we already have something like this - Lone Wolves in Terminator Armour?

And we know that Lone Wolves have Eternal Warrior - not sure about GKT. To be fair, the wound allocation rules would be a significant bonus in of itself...

That and the ability to deep-strike, NFW's and squads.

As I said earlier though, we have no real idea of points costs so there's no point whining just yet.
20 at 2000pts suggests about 90pts each which is VERY expensive per model.

I think for what it is worth that GK's worked best when they were an extra unit to be bought with an army. There main focus has always been fighting Chaos and Daemons in particular. It is hard to make them a feasible army to take on the mulittude of races when their wargear and sturcture is built for particular enemies.

And since this is a rumor thread...It was my understanding that the Str 6 nemesis force weapons were staying with the Terminators. Power armor was going to be standard strength 4.

I think any army that has troops with two wounds has a lot going for it.

Just Dave wrote:That and the ability to deep-strike, NFW's and squads.

As I said earlier though, we have no real idea of points costs so there's no point whining just yet.
20 at 2000pts suggests about 90pts each which is VERY expensive per model.

my guess is that the 90pt terminators are terminators with every upgrade possible crammed into them.

so if all the rumors were true, we're talking rerollable armor/invul saves, FNP, and 2 wounds each, with possibly S6 force weapons and a 12" holocaust nuke to make sure they dont get tarpitted.

Yiawchuah wrote:Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

that would be cool. cool enough to make me want to field my deathwing as counts as GKT!

Yiawchuah wrote:Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

Wow! It's like an Orc Nob mob with a doc, only with much better armor, better weapons, better leadership, and can deep strike.



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H.B.M.C. wrote:Put it this way:

1. You have GK's with S6.
2. You have GK's with S4, but a special rule that wounds Daemons on a 2+.

What's the net effect here in BOTH situations? GK's wound Daemons on a 2+. The difference is the former is just done via the strength of their weapons, and the latter is done via more special rules. We don't need more special rules, especially when you don't need to add special rules to have GK's achieve what they can already achieve with their base weapons.

I follow and agree what you're saying here, HBMC. As expensive as these puppies are likely to be, I'd want the hit on +2 to be against EVERYTHING, too. Not just the Daemons.