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Wayfarer wrote:I think any army that has troops with two wounds has a lot going for it.

Arg!

ph34r wrote:So when you think about it that way, the net change is:
vs daemons, better vs greater daemons
vs everything else, better vs elite troops and worse vs orks

One way is a special rule
The other is a USR and a special rule

How is that a problem?

The problem is balancing it.

It's not fair to GK players to pay a stupid premium to be better at fighting one type of enemy that in all likelihood they will hardly ever fight against in actual play. The three points per model (or whatever) built into the point cost for eliteness versus Daemons is not doing them any good against mech IG.

Similarly it's not fair to Daemons players to run against a GK list balanced against general codices but that gets to be totally UBER against their specific army.

A universal buff is universal. +2 Str has value against vehicles, Tau, Daemon Princes, and Terminators. It's an easily quantifiable bonus.

A target-specific special ability is not universal and does not have value against the majority of opponents. It either is horrible or it's incredible; too cheap or too expensive.

That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

sourclams wrote:
That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

Didn't I just say this? XD

If you did, it was a good idea, and bears repeating.

Grundz wrote:

sourclams wrote:
That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

Didn't I just say this? XD

sourclams wrote:If you did, it was a good idea, and bears repeating.

I love the Christmas Season!

Two wound terminators? With Wargear / Weapons options? And Pyschic Powers?

It's like Mega Armor Nobz mobz - with access to Storm Shields and Land Raiders instead of Waagh! and Battle Wagons ...

Well, it looks like GW found a new way to help bolster Land Raider sales again. I just love 1 round games that come down to a binary question of "Did you kill enough of my Land Raiders with your first Shooting Phase?" - don't you?

- Marty Lund

okay- so basically the TAGK will:
be troops
have 2 wounds
have NFWs
2+ armour re-rolling
3+ invul with SS
ouch. I doubt half of this is real (too much to hope for), but if it is- how many points will they be?! they're basically brother-captains that re-roll armour for feth's sake!

I'd estimate them to be around 90pts each judging by apparently having 20 at 2000pts and the need for a special HQ.*

*Pinch of salt required. not supplied.

shrike wrote:okay- so basically the TAGK will:
be troops
have 2 wounds
have NFWs
2+ armour re-rolling
3+ invul with SS
ouch. I doubt half of this is real (too much to hope for), but if it is- how many points will they be?! they're basically brother-captains that re-roll armour for feth's sake!

I thought it sounded as if their were normal terminators as troops and these spiffy 2 wound dudes as elites (perhaps with a SC to make them troops).

As to cost, keep in mind in nearly every circumstance two one wound models are better then 1 two wound model, even with a re-roll. And the re-roll is one of the few things that might allow these guys to fight hordes with some hope of success.

Jack

Yiawchuah wrote:Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

Is it just me or does it sound like this is going to be a different unit distinct from the normal GKTs? Maybe I'm just slow on picking that up. The wording there reminds me loads of Sanguinary Guard being unlocked by Dante, and how they're more "elite" (at least fluff/perception-wise) than regular assault troops or even vets. But that there'll be other options for GKTs in the dex.

If anyone bothers taking them when unstoppable supernators are waltzing around everywhere.


Who knows, maybe they'll get WBB too

Ooh, they can call it "And they shall know no death"

In the rules we use all Terminators, no matter who they belong to, are T4(5) W2 Sv2+/5+(I). At 45 points each they are a wonderful unit that balances out durability vs cost vs rarity (Termies are 0-1 per 1000 points in our rules). Do I don't really have a problem with 2 Wound Termies because all Termies should have 2 wounds.

Of course, we don't give them FNP or 3+(I) Storm Shields... so that might have something to do with it.

Am I the only one wondering about this but does it seem like GW is handing every army tons of FNP and poisoned weapons now? It was cool at first but now it starts to become a little ridiculous if everyone can get nearly full FNP. Nids, BAs, DE, GK, and we can rest assured Necrons are all FNPed. Is there some divine plan at work here or what will it actually lead to? Is it to slowly make AP1/2 ranged weapons and powered close combat weapons stronger in comparison to 'mundane weapons' than they have been for a while now? Orks are riding the old 'no FNP' train but I'm sure they'll get somekind of an FNP aura when they get updated, just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

You're not the only one, the over-use of USR's, particularly FNP is commonly griped about and IMHO, rightly so.

Remember that a Painboy can technically still provide it for Orks also...

Therion wrote:Am I the only one wondering about this but does it seem like GW is handing every army tons of FNP and poisoned weapons now? It was cool at first but now it starts to become a little ridiculous if everyone can get nearly full FNP. Nids, BAs, DE, GK, and we can rest assured Necrons are all FNPed. Is there some divine plan at work here or what will it actually lead to? Is it to slowly make AP1/2 ranged weapons and powered close combat weapons stronger in comparison to 'mundane weapons' than they have been for a while now? Orks are riding the old 'no FNP' train but I'm sure they'll get somekind of an FNP aura when they get updated, just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

Its the overload of special rules that defines 5th edition. As its been pointed out the same effect can be had with adjusting base stats. However, people have been stat bragging since miniature games were invented, so now GW is using a ton of special rules instead. So...where you used to have the gamers sitting around "my ___ has str_", "well my ____ has str_ and toughness___"...and so on. Now its "I have ____ special rule", "well I have ____ rule that defeats your rule"...and so on.


Its essentially a new way to do the same old thing, but they went way overboard on it. Its a downward spiral...once you load one army with special rules, you have to give some to the rest or it will piss off players (aka customers).

Its bad enough hat I really dont want to play 5th ed. IMO they just need to stop, admit they binned it, and move on to 6th ed. However, they still have a ton of money to make on updating the rest of the armies, so that wont happen until every one has been updated to 5th and all the $$$ possible has been wrung out of it.

Then the cycle begins again with a new version.

Wasn't that bloody kittens website promising a super update today? Anyone got it?

It's the two-wound terminators returning that can be taken as troops with the addition of a special character, look at the previous page...

Just Dave wrote:

It's the two-wound terminators returning that can be taken as troops with the addition of a special character, look at the previous page...

Whops, thats it, sorry! I just checked it today, as its friday, so sorry about that, carry on with your normal thread.

Don't worry man, its OK. although for me at-least it's now Saturday...

I'm a member and I cant find it on thier site.

The naviagtion is convoluted to say the least.

wolfshadow wrote:I'm a member and I cant find it on thier site.

It's in white text at the bottom of their list of rumours.

If true...

...I welcome our new Feel No Pain overlords.

Therion wrote:Am I the only one wondering about this but does it seem like GW is handing every army tons of FNP and poisoned weapons now? It was cool at first but now it starts to become a little ridiculous if everyone can get nearly full FNP. Nids, BAs, DE, GK, and we can rest assured Necrons are all FNPed. Is there some divine plan at work here or what will it actually lead to? Is it to slowly make AP1/2 ranged weapons and powered close combat weapons stronger in comparison to 'mundane weapons' than they have been for a while now? Orks are riding the old 'no FNP' train but I'm sure they'll get somekind of an FNP aura when they get updated, just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

I agree that it's overused, but in the case of the necrons, FNP is much simpler to deal with then some funky WBB rule (which is basically FNP, just called something else)

So in the future people wont bring units to defeat MEQ, they will bring units to defeat FNP :-/

okay then- TAGK will be:
troops
T4(5)
Sv 2+/3++ (SS)
NFW
SB
W2
re-rolling armour
FNP?!

I agree with re-rolling armour- PAGK are better than PASM, so TAGK should be better than TASM.
NFW/SB is okay.
T5- ooh. on the edge of OTT.
W2- TAGK are the GK's backbone. They should be that good, though GW should either pick re-rolling OR 2 wounds.
troops- ooh. elites? yes. I think if you take, say, a GKGM then he unlocks it.

I think I was the only one who mentioned T4(5), and that was our own rules, so unless I missed it in someone else's post disregard that part (if you keep repeating it Taco Bell will report it as news in a few days, and we don't want that).

ah. oh well.

To be honest, I'm not even that worried about these new TAGKs. My 5 man death company with Lemartes will eat them alive (and that's assuming they have different weapons for wound allocation like Nobs)-Unless of course they are I5 with counter charge or something added on. Then I just quit. Hearing how the new Grey Knights will work, I have no fear with my BA: I think the BA can still give them a serious run for their money. However, it will be time to put my Fateweaver Daemon army back on the shelves for 6-8 years

sourclams wrote:

ph34r wrote:So when you think about it that way, the net change is:
vs daemons, better vs greater daemons
vs everything else, better vs elite troops and worse vs orks

One way is a special rule
The other is a USR and a special rule

How is that a problem?

The problem is balancing it.

It's not fair to GK players to pay a stupid premium to be better at fighting one type of enemy that in all likelihood they will hardly ever fight against in actual play. The three points per model (or whatever) built into the point cost for eliteness versus Daemons is not doing them any good against mech IG.

Similarly it's not fair to Daemons players to run against a GK list balanced against general codices but that gets to be totally UBER against their specific army.

A universal buff is universal. +2 Str has value against vehicles, Tau, Daemon Princes, and Terminators. It's an easily quantifiable bonus.

A target-specific special ability is not universal and does not have value against the majority of opponents. It either is horrible or it's incredible; too cheap or too expensive.

That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

Until GW releases this thing, I can't judge definitively. In general I think GW should have handled it differently. Grey Knights playing against daemons should have just been a special set of rules specific to that instance. Those rules shouldn't be "uber pawnage" but something balanced, such as GK having preferred enemy and cause instability, but where the daemons gain something like Furious Charge, only in games against each other. That's just an example, but its about reshaping the dynamic situationally and not the baseline capabilities.

Therion wrote: just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

Just to be clear. Bezerkers(who can not use an Icon of Nurgle) and Chaos Terminators do not get FNP. Adding a Icon of Nurgle only adds +1 to your toughness, see page 25 of C:CSM.
I am going to hold my judgment of these rumors untill we get closer to the release date. Right now they seem like playtest notes to me.