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plastictrees wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Wow. These miniatures are really nice-- those comparison pictures are quite telling.

Haha....what?
You realise that the Defiance model is the blobby piece of garbage in the middle of each photo right?
Did you see the post where someone who mind-bogglingly states that they like the range spent at least half an hour hacking detail into a model with the definition and layering of a novelty candle?
Why do hobbyists keep supporting the production of crap? It's cheaper than GW so we'll accept design and production values that would be unacceptable in Kinder Surprise toys? Alternatives to GW don't have to be half-assed piles of fecal matter. If you're going to vote with your wallet then at least cast a vote for quality and not just for anything that isn't GW.

Ummm....what? <GW = "half-assed piles of fecal matter"? What are you on? They look like quite nice models to me, not up to the same standard that GW is, but it's perfectly fine. I'm considering adding a couple to my IG army.>

Need to see some painted, or at least primered models. The light coming off the plastic and the lack of shadows is making it hard to gauge.

But at those prices, I think most models would be worth it so long as they weren't pockmarked with craters or weapons drooping like they were left out in the sun too long.

Yeah the only thing that bugs me at the moment is the shinguards, everything else on him looks pretty good. A little work with an exacto knife and I could probably fix them pretty easily. I'm not about to spend an hour on each guy, but a couple minutes sharpening the lines wouldn't be too bad.

Also, these guys are MUCH cheaper than GW, of course their quality won't be quite as high (the whole you get what you paid for thing) But tell me this, is the quality so bad that it offsets the fact that you get FOURTEEN more guys for $30 than you do for a similarly priced GW kit? That should be the most telling fact out of all of them. If they're this close to GW quality, and they can get you almost 2.5x the amount of guys for the money, I don't see why most people would ever bother with the cadians.

I'm still hesitant to say "awesome figs" until I get mine, but from everything I've seen, I think they'll end up being a good buy.

EDIT: Tried to reword my post so it makes more sense.

I dont like them... And would never made an army with them for sure. But i like what defiance is doing, and im anxiousçy waiting their bugs.

Sincerely, they are not my kind of plastic dude (i prefer WGF great coats o.O), but they are certainly not "pieces of crap" like plastictrees said...

Im waiting for bugs

MrMoustaffa wrote:Also, these guys are MUCH cheaper than GW, of course their quality will be lower.

That's just nonsense. Much of the problem I have with these is caused by deliberate design decisions like the bloated helmets and breastplates instead of the form fitting armour shown in the art. The rest... if they can get adequate sculpt quality on the guns, there's no reason why they can't do the same thing with the rest of the model.

But tell me this, is the quality so bad that it offsets the fact that you get FOURTEEN more guys for $30 than you do for a similarly priced GW kit? That should be the most telling fact out of all of them.

You ignore the third option. As long as neither Defiance nor GW are willing and able to sell a product I find acceptable, I'd rather go without.

I'll post pictures of primered minis tomorrow -- I plan to start painting tonight so, as long as you can stand brown mini like the Mantic Skellie above, that's what you'll see. This assumes I remember to take the pictures before starting the paint.


As to combining GW parts with DG, I wouldn't advise it. I actually did some tests using spare Cadian arms and while they don't look too off, the hands are enormous combined to the original mini! Plus, if you want to use a Cadian head you'll need to build up the neck with some green stuff, as the head sits very low on the shoulders otherwise. You could splice on a lasgun, but it'll look HUGE (moreso than normal). There's also this comparison shot of a Catachan Tony took:




Tonight, I'll take some shots of parts mixed and matched using spare legs and Cadian torsos plus Marine arms.

AlexHolker wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Also, these guys are MUCH cheaper than GW, of course their quality will be lower.

That's just nonsense. Much of the problem I have with these is caused by deliberate design decisions like the bloated helmets and breastplates instead of the form fitting armour shown in the art. The rest... if they can get adequate sculpt quality on the guns, there's no reason why they can't do the same thing with the rest of the model.

But tell me this, is the quality so bad that it offsets the fact that you get FOURTEEN more guys for $30 than you do for a similarly priced GW kit? That should be the most telling fact out of all of them.

You ignore the third option. As long as neither Defiance nor GW are willing and able to sell a product I find acceptable, I'd rather go without.

What I was implying was that while these guys aren't as amazing as the GW models, to me, I feel the extra minis was worth it for the price. I wasn't a huge fan of the original marine concept art, so it doesn't bug me as much. I can understand you being a bit miffed that it's not dead on the concept art, they did change a lot. However, I don't mind the changes (except for the shinguards, I agree, something looks off on them. It's like in some pics they look fine, and in others, god awful. I'll have to wait till mine show up before I can make up my mind on them) If they had gone with a smaller helmet, the head would have looked tiny compared to the body. And if you look at the comparison pics, like the one above my post, I don't think they look that bloated when they're compared to other companies figures, or even other marines. These helmets are packed with electronics, and protection to help the guy stay alive. Had it been any smaller, and I would've had a hard time taking it seriously to be honest. Once you take the rest of the model into account, they seem to fit fairly well. I'll probably even replace all the heads on my cadians with spares from my USMC, since they look a million times better than that football helmet the cadians wear

And if you don't have to buy the models, cool, that's your choice man. I was merely comparing the two and asking which you would rather have. Slightly sharper details, or 14 more guys. There are guys that will go with the latter (like me), and guys like you who will go for the former (not saying you want GW, just you want more detail, which is perfectly understandable! ) and there's nothing wrong with either viewpoint. For a guy like me who plays a massive foot horde guard army, one or 2 guys with slightly soft details doesn't bother me so much, as I highly doubt my opponent would notice. For a guy who's playing smaller games, this could be very annoying, so I don't blame them for being miffed at all. The fact that they're barely more than WGF Great coats (for how much you're paying per model) and yet seem to be leagues ahead in quality, is plenty enough for me. If I don't like it, that's what I've got greenstuff and exacto knives for

I'm not trying to call you out or anything, just trying to explain my point of view. I'm sorry if I came across as mean or snobby, kinda hard to type well on a tiny little Kin phone

AlexHolker wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:*pictures*

Well... feth. Why is the man incapable of just following the concept art?

Seriously, how is he not following the concept art in a way that does not make them what you expected?

I'm sitting here looking at a DFG Marine in my hand, and the image you link to. Here are the differences I see:

A. The pose is different from what I could do with the set. No seperate helmet, and no arm that lets the gun hang down by the figures side.

B. The bare head on the sprue doesn't have the mic, only the head with the 8 point hat does.

C. The hands do not have the half gloves.

Other than those things, the rest of the details you can point to on the concept art are on the drawing. Maybe not in exactly the same proportion, but come on, can you point to any concept art/mini pairing that doesn't have differences? I'm a huge fan of Sandra Garrity, Julie Guthrie, Gene Van Horne and Bob Rudolfi, and as much as I love their stuff, I can grab a lot of the concept art that's been given to them by Reaper and nit pick differences between the art and the minis they've done. That's simply the reality of the differences between a detailed 2d drawing that's 6-8" high, and a 3D sculpted mini that's a little over an inch tall.

Now, of the 3 differences I note above:

A. I can live without the pose in the concept art. It's likely a pose I'd only use for a sergeant or officer anyway, and will only need one of in my army. No big loss.

B. There is a head with the mic. Plus most of mine are going to have helmets, since smart soldiers wear theirs in combat. I can wait for more head options on later sets.

C. This is the one major omission from the concept art I can see. Frankly, the lack of gloves don't bother me, bare hands will be easier to paint.

Are these the greatest miniatures in the world? No. But they look pretty darn good and similar levels of quality when set next to any of the plastic GW figs I've drug out - which includes a Necromunda Orlock, a 90's era Space Marine and a LotR Gondor Swordsman figure. It also looked pretty good compared to a Reaper NOVA Corp figure.

And a funny thing about setting next to the GW figures - I noticed for the first time ever how skewed the leg proportions are on the GW figures. Hold your elbow next to your knee, and place your forearm against the side of your calf. Your finger tips will end right about your ankles. The forearms on most of the GW minis are twice as long as the lower leg is.

kristof65 wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:*pictures*

Well... feth. Why is the man incapable of just following the concept art?

Seriously, how is he not following the concept art in a way that does not make them what you expected?

Look at the cuirass and the helmet. In the art, both are quite thin and do not obscure the silhouette of the soldier that wears them. The armour on the model is far bulkier, distorting the apparent proportions of the model in a way the art's armour does not.

Any chance all y'all could stop bickering back and forth about this? The Marines differs from the concept art: the proportions are different and the torso armor is different. Neither of these bother me, but that's a matter of personal taste. No sense bickering back and forth about it. Mr. Holker doesn't like the changes and that's the be all, end all of it. No sense berating him about it (and vice versa, honestly -- it's all a matter of individual tastes).

i dont mind the models at all. far more realistically proportioned than GW

Blackhoof wrote:i dont mind the models at all. far more realistically proportioned than GW

I agree 100%. The preportions are excellent. It's one of the reasons I like these guys. Also love the alien bug as well. I like how it isn't a super bug in size and is actually smaller than the marines. I look forward to seeing how the various hardsuit designs come out. And the heavy weapons.

Shepherd23 wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:i dont mind the models at all. far more realistically proportioned than GW

I agree 100%. The preportions are excellent. It's one of the reasons I like these guys. Also love the alien bug as well. I like how it isn't a super bug in size and is actually smaller than the marines. I look forward to seeing how the various hardsuit designs come out. And the heavy weapons.

The warrior bugs should be larger down the road, probably about the same size as the hardsuits. These bugs we're seeing right now are the basic workers/drones. They're not exactly made for combat, but apparently they can hold their own fairly well.

OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.

http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/boxes-approved-and-ready-to-print

It looks kind of wierd. I expected a taller box. Looks like they're packing the sprues either 3x3x3x3 in quadrants, or doing 6 deep side by side, with the former being more likely. Probably a good thing, as that will be much easier to fit on store shelves. I remember the weird shape the greatcoat trooper boxes were in back at WGF and they don't fit on shelves very well at all...

Xeno wrote:Scale comparisons with every relevant mini I could dredge up:


With Cadians and Marines
....

Thanks for posting these pics. Clearly the Deviance plastics aren't quite up to the level of detail as GW, but they aren't bad figs at all. Note that while the helmets and legs are a bit softer in detail than their GW counterparts, the weaver rail and some of the smaller detail on the assualt rifles is as fine as anything on the cadians. This speaks well of Defiances design/production capabilities and the possibilities for future sets.

Interesting that they are actually a smidge taller than cadians. Compared to true human proportions they are still a bit on the heroic side for both the bodies and the guns, but that's practically a requirement for sci-fi 28/30mm these days and they certainly aren't the chunky gunned, massive handed (my biggest beef with WGF Greatcoats, Cadians and Catachans) and rediculously musclebound (Cadians anyone?) proportions that GW favors.

They look like they could mix fairly well with cadian parts (with abit of modding) though thankfully they're too small to work well with Catachan parts.

A minor point, but I do wish they'd not put a raised section on the bottom of their bases, as it makes it more difficult to glue coins or washers to the inside of the base to add weight. I'm sure it can be cut out, but it's still an annoyance. I really like the fact that it's so easy to glue pennies inside of non-slotta GW 25mm round bases to add a touch of stability.

All in all, I'd say nice job to Defiance for their first release. Well ahead of WGF Sci-fi figs, and not far behind GW. A good quality kit whose minor issues are far outweighed by a very affordable price. I'm not currently in the market for more basic human troopers, but if I were, these would be on the list for consideration.

Related issue:
Anybody have pics of these figs with a Pig Iron head yet?

The pictures aren't very clear (cheap camera, no light box) but, at least to me, the DG Marines are about as detailed as the Cadians. It's just a touch harder to tell without paint on them. I'd have some painted pic, I screwed up the paint job and decided to just Simple Green the guys and star over :(

MrMoustaffa wrote:
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.

Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.

Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.

You have a great point. Clearly he started this project KNOWING ALL THE WHILE that the Eagle Globe and Anchor is trademarked. This way, he can take customers money, promise the product and just before it releases, declare a delay due to possible litigation! THEN, while no one was looking, he could have jumped out the window with the suitcase of ill gotten gains. And he would have gotten away for it if it wasn't for all the dedicated sleuthing you did piecing together his perfect crime.

That or he's changing the frigging boxes to prevent a lawsuit. One or the other.

noneoftheabove0 wrote:

That or he's changing the frigging boxes to prevent a lawsuit. One or the other.

Yes, buuuuut every aspect of this project has lead to delays. Everything. Designing, mastering, mould making, delivery now box art.

I mean, I dont think the guy is really a big crook, I just think he is very very dumb. I mean, come on, how can you invest the kind of money that is needed to print up a load of box art without even checking if you are in breech of copyright against ELITE TROOPS WITH BIG GUNS?

Its not that Tony comes across a willfully trying to rip everyone off, he comes across as a total fool. Why give him money when there are equally as cheap and equally as good models already on the market?

Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.

Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.

Seriously? They ae getting the boxes re-done?

kenshin620 wrote:Huh, found this on TT fix. Looks like we're gonna have some more sci fi plastics in the future. I think these were the same guys who popped in here a few months ago with some type of poll (or was it a different forum? Cant remember.)

Also they named their range Alien Suns....

Although ehh....models look okish. Not much to tell, only one thing. And MORE GAS MASK GERMANS IN THE FAR FUTURE

http://www.defiancegames.com/

I see another guard army

Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:

noneoftheabove0 wrote:

That or he's changing the frigging boxes to prevent a lawsuit. One or the other.

Yes, buuuuut every aspect of this project has lead to delays. Everything. Designing, mastering, mould making, delivery now box art.

I mean, I dont think the guy is really a big crook, I just think he is very very dumb. I mean, come on, how can you invest the kind of money that is needed to print up a load of box art without even checking if you are in breech of copyright against ELITE TROOPS WITH BIG GUNS?

Its not that Tony comes across a willfully trying to rip everyone off, he comes across as a total fool. Why give him money when there are equally as cheap and equally as good models already on the market?

He probably assumed, as did i, that military insignia isnt copyrightable. Thats why movies dont go out of their way to change the iron cross, or why GW doesnt get sued for the double headed eagle.

Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
OT: The boxes are being printed as we speak! And there's also a bit of a sneak peek at the bugs' boxes as well.

Yeah, except they used the Marines logo and name, which is a bit illegal, so now have to reprint the boxes. More delays, no product, no painted examples. The guy who runs this company seems to me to be taking money and not shipping a product.

Do you have a link to this info or are you speculating? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't find any word of this on their site. This is the kind of statement that should really have a link to the source.

http://www.marines.mil/usmc/Pages/faq.aspx#emblem

there you go.

On their Facebook page they said they'll be changing them to "UAMC" on the boxes and it's already been done, leading to no schedule change.

He's been working on this universe for years, apparantly, in his spare time. A few years back, he checked to see if it's legal, and apparantly it was. Having no reason to suspect otherwise, when the company started up, he assumed it was still good. The boxes haven't been printed yet, the changes have been made, no harm no foul.

And only 6 months behind schedule!
At this rate, they'll run themselves out of business inside a year unless they can keep selling the marines because I don't see people trusting their release schedule and plunking down pre-order money.

Quite sad, really; I had high hopes for them when they first started up....

noneoftheabove0 wrote:He's been working on this universe for years, apparantly, in his spare time. A few years back, he checked to see if it's legal, and apparantly it was. Having no reason to suspect otherwise, when the company started up, he assumed it was still good. The boxes haven't been printed yet, the changes have been made, no harm no foul.

I'm calling BS on that one. Copy right laws haven't changed that much and the USMC has always been particular about how their symbols and name are used.

Here is a policy letter from 1997. http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%205030.3B.pdf You want to us to believe that Tony complied with that even if he didn't comply with current procedure? If he did, he would have had approval, even if it was done a long time ago.

As far as I see it, who cares if he had to change the name, as long as they still get the product out and there is no delay, which there isn't because all that had to be changed was one thing. This isn't the first company in existence who has had to change a name because of legal troubles.

I don't disagree with you. But if Tony implied he did check and it was legal, but he did not actually do so, it is an indicator of his integrity.


It is good he was able to adjust quickly and hopefully will not incur further delays.

I personally wouldn't have thought it was an issue, but that's why I don't make things like this. Has anyone actually heard him say he checked it out? Or is all of this assumption and word of mouth? Perhaps he just got bad legal advice by someone, but like I said i don't mind since the boxes will still be printed Monday and the frames are still being produced.