Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well when you compare stuff you take points into consideration


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guys, help me with my shopping cart. Atm it's these categories:

I will 100% buy:
Changeling (so I can stop using herald and calling it a changeling)

90%
4x Seekers (So I can finish my slaanesh army)

69%
Nurgle start collecting(already have 1)
10 plaguebearers

50%
Khorne start collecting (only have 20 bloodletters, BT, 15 hounds, Karanak and Herald on Juggernaut atm)
A pack of Bloodcrushers (to have 9 total with the starter pack)
Chaos spawn (since it seems they're shoehorned in too hard to ignore them)

 labmouse42 wrote:

Another idea is to summon the bloodletters. It does not work until your character is stuck in assault, or if you are close enough to get the charge phase off without needing a movement phase. You can also use a unaligned chaos sorcerer on a bike who can cast warptime on himself to move up then summon. Once you have the 30 bloodletters summoned, with a banner and a command point reroll they have a very good chance of making it into assault.

That summon is a 15+ roll on 3d6 though. Which is like 8-9% chance.
Even 20 Bloodletters is 50/50.

So you either have to be patient, lucky, or summon 10 letters at a time (with multiple characters maybe).

i have two different list i m thinking about for a tournament sunday they are similar

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Thousand Sons)
Lord of War
Magnus the Red

Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons)
HQ
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings
Malefic talon
Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch
Staff of Change,
Herald of Tzeentch
Staff of Change

Troops
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Elites
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer

Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons)
HQ
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings
Malefic talon
Tzeentch

Herald of Slaanesh
Symphony of Pain
The Changeling

Troops
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Elites
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer

the other one

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Nurgle: Virulent Blessing

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Boon of Change

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Boon of Change

Daemon Prince with Wings (CSM): Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Prescience


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Herald of Tzeentch: Bolt of Change, Staff of Change, Treason of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch: Bolt of Change, Boon of Change, Staff of Change

+ Troops +

Horrors: Blue Horror, 19x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

+ Elites +

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Slaanesh: Symphony of Pain

The Changeling: Bolt of Change

+ Troops +

Horrors: Blue Horror, 19x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Hellforged Rapier Battery
. Hellforged Rapier and crew: 2x Chaos Space Marine Crew, Quad heavy bolter
. Hellforged Rapier and crew: 2x Chaos Space Marine Crew, Quad heavy bolter


what better in your opinion tysm

Top one all day. Why the Slaanesh herald, though?

For the Slaanesh psychic powers. Just something different to cast, and they're not too shabby to boot.

Certainly. I'm actually a pretty big fan of Slaanesh heralds on Steeds. Wonderfully cheap, and incredibly fast.

yes i have one more spell to cast and it is great with -1 to hit and if needed he can add some light CaC. The only thing make me think about 1st list is Magnus, all alone there and easily targettable.... btw why you consider the 1st list better than 2nd one, just curios ty.

What's the general consensus on Daemonettes and Seekers? It seems like being able to assault from deep strike in 8th edition would make them fairly nasty, but nobody seems keen on putting them in their lists here...

Well, how are you implying they deep strike? Daemons lost that ability naturally, unless you mean from summoning, in which case they start 9"+ Away, and then have to charge.

Seekers in particular have a very fast movement, can advance and assault, so it's possible to get t1 charges off of that alone, deployment depending.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, how are you implying they deep strike? Daemons lost that ability naturally, unless you mean from summoning, in which case they start 9"+ Away, and then have to charge.

Seekers in particular have a very fast movement, can advance and assault, so it's possible to get t1 charges off of that alone, deployment depending.

Ah. That's right. Do they still get to reroll their charge like in previous editions? I don't have a book handy here.

So is the general consensus that they're still pretty good then?

 fallinq wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, how are you implying they deep strike? Daemons lost that ability naturally, unless you mean from summoning, in which case they start 9"+ Away, and then have to charge.

Seekers in particular have a very fast movement, can advance and assault, so it's possible to get t1 charges off of that alone, deployment depending.

Ah. That's right. Do they still get to reroll their charge like in previous editions? I don't have a book handy here.

So is the general consensus that they're still pretty good then?

No more re-rolls.

However, taking an Instrument (or was it Icon?) gives them +1" to both their Advance and their charge. Since they can both advance and charge after advancing, that's +2" to their movement. So that's 14" +2" +D6" + 2D6" or a threat range of 19"-34".

Just keep in mind that a good general with use screening tactics with fodder units to absorb the charge and then finish off your seekers afterwards.

The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.

Slaanesh has some potential to be quite potent and fast, but I feel it will depend strongly on a slaanesh release and codex. They need more units like fiends that lock you in combat with them.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.

ESPECIALLY if you cast the attacking twice power on her. Goodness

KingGhidra wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Another idea is to summon the bloodletters. It does not work until your character is stuck in assault, or if you are close enough to get the charge phase off without needing a movement phase. You can also use a unaligned chaos sorcerer on a bike who can cast warptime on himself to move up then summon. Once you have the 30 bloodletters summoned, with a banner and a command point reroll they have a very good chance of making it into assault.

That summon is a 15+ roll on 3d6 though. Which is like 8-9% chance.
Even 20 Bloodletters is 50/50.

So you either have to be patient, lucky, or summon 10 letters at a time (with multiple characters maybe).

You are correct. I forgot that the summon cost for 'letters was so high.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Certainly. I'm actually a pretty big fan of Slaanesh heralds on Steeds. Wonderfully cheap, and incredibly fast.

They are also pretty killy too for the cost.
Heralds on Seeker Chariots are nice too, as they clock in at under 10 wounds and are characters with a huge aura due to the chariot base.

Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.

Slaanesh has some potential to be quite potent and fast, but I feel it will depend strongly on a slaanesh release and codex. They need more units like fiends that lock you in combat with them.

The book KoS is crazy good too.

At a 12" move, it's going to be making a turn 2 charge -- as you can assume it will advance on turn one.
She has 6 attacks that are STR 8, -3 AP, 3 DMG hitting on a 2+. As an extra it lowers the 'to hit' form models hit with the weapon -- which is great on something like a knight. It will carve a rhino right up.
She has another D3 attacks tat are STR 7 with -2 rend and 3 dmg (going up to -4 rend on a 'to wound' roll of a 6)
She can cast 2 psychic powers a turn. The slaanesh powers are extremely good. 'Psychic Scream', 'Extra Fight Phase', and -1 to hit (stacking with Witstealer sword)
If she has a herald nearby, the STR of her attacks go up to a 9/8, making her extremely dangerous to vehicles.

Insult to injury is that the GW model is extremely small, close to the size of a primaris space marine. Unlike the bloodthirsters or KoS, this model can hide behind terrain while it advances.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.

You can always go to your local toy store and look for monsters to make your own.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.

The Mutalith Vortex Beast from Fantasy works well.

Unfortunately it's now Direct Only.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.

Slaanesh has some potential to be quite potent and fast, but I feel it will depend strongly on a slaanesh release and codex. They need more units like fiends that lock you in combat with them.

The book KoS is crazy good too.

At a 12" move, it's going to be making a turn 2 charge -- as you can assume it will advance on turn one.
She has 6 attacks that are STR 8, -3 AP, 3 DMG hitting on a 2+. As an extra it lowers the 'to hit' form models hit with the weapon -- which is great on something like a knight. It will carve a rhino right up.
She has another D3 attacks tat are STR 7 with -2 rend and 3 dmg (going up to -4 rend on a 'to wound' roll of a 6)
She can cast 2 psychic powers a turn. The slaanesh powers are extremely good. 'Psychic Scream', 'Extra Fight Phase', and -1 to hit (stacking with Witstealer sword)
If she has a herald nearby, the STR of her attacks go up to a 9/8, making her extremely dangerous to vehicles.

Insult to injury is that the GW model is extremely small, close to the size of a primaris space marine. Unlike the bloodthirsters or KoS, this model can hide behind terrain while it advances.

Slaanesh is most definitely in a good place right now. If I wasn't almost positive they'll be receiving a further update, I would be investing in them. Especially now that they have a Start Collecting! box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.

The Mutalith Vortex Beast from Fantasy works well.

Unfortunately it's now Direct Only.

Oh, absolutely. I'm on the email list for when they're available again.

Are Slannesh actually in a good place though?

Daemonettes are killy but very fragile and lack delivery options.
Seekers squishy and their damage is actually quite poor for their cost (especially compared to their damage the previous edition, considering their mount attacks are separated).
Fiends are one of the worst units in the army because of their cost and fragility.
Seeker chariots are decent, but definitely better as a mount for a herald.
Helflayers are pretty bad too.

That leaves herald, exalted chariots and the KoS. They're all pretty strong but definitely nothing to write home about without a way to effect a turn 1 charge or mitigate shooting in a meaningful way.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.

I'm partial to FW's Collossal Squig to 'count as' a Giant Spawn:

I mean, you certainly could! Haha.

Giant Spawn are very strong, their only downside seems to be finding an appropriate model for them so you can actually field enough of them.

I think Fiends of Slaanesh can be used to great effect. You straight up can't leave combat with them, so have a couple single models of them along with some other high priority targets could throw some wrenches in the plans of a primarily shooting army. That said, if you're facing something like Orks they won't be as effective.

And I agree with the Giant Chaos Spawn. Mutalith is really the only cool option without going out of the range or stretching for a 'counts as'.

Speaking of 'counts as' models, I am not a fan of the Daemon Prince models (save for Belakor & other FW options), so I've taken to using the Morghasts from the Undead range. They are the perfect size and look super neat. Throw on a couple of markings, a good colour scheme, and you're set. Once mine are done I'll put some pics up but at this rate, that won't be as soon as I like (damn newborns!).

Ogroid shamans with vargheist wings are also perfect.

Mathammered Khorne Daemons. Thoughts:

Bloodletters are disgustingly strong in melee. Because of +1 attack on charge/getting charged they double in power as they were balanced for 1 attack points wise. Also they really get better with the Herald, DP and 20+/Skulltaker buffs. Up to 80% better.

Bloodcrushers are actually not as good pure damage wise. Letters are 30% to 100% better due to how effective the buffs are on them.

Flesh hounds are worse than Crushers but are faster so they might have a niche?

Skull Cannon is TERRIBLE. Like god awful.

Herald variation on throne is balanced 100% with the Herald on foot math hammer wise on damage. So Throne is just better due to bonus stats and abilities. But Jugger version has the best damage and is faster.

Wrath of Khorne is the obviously best BT.

DPs still claws all the way.

Skarbrand has to be a lot better than the other BTs due to increased price and reduced mobility. He's not... Although Bloodletters + Skarbrand is just a delete button.

I hope I didn't make any mistakes in it the hammering

Nurgle mathammer:

Great Unclean one is better than BTs damage per points wise. AND not counting him being a psyker. He's preeeetty good...

Epidemius and herald are only to be taken for their buffs

Nurglings become really good with a herald next to them. Which makes their infiltrate ability counterproductive.

Plague drones are worse than plaguebearers but obviously they're a lot faster so they can pick out the multi-wound targets.

Beast of nurgle is bad. But everyone knew that already.

Scabby needs to target large multiwound models to shine. If he doesn't, he might seem underwhelming. Still better than Angy since he has the -1 to hit in melee buff.

I played a Tzeentch-Slaanesh army in 6th edition and mono-Slaanesh in 7th, but I'm not too keen on them this edition. As far as I can tell they're basically just a shittier Genestealer Cult. Their units are all functionally the same which results in their playstyle and strategy being pretty binary. "Run across the board, either make it into combat and sweep stuff or get shot to pieces." There's very little middle ground, and a savvy player who knows how to bubblewrap and speed-bump fast assault units will bog down your units more often then not and then shoot them off the board.

We have some nice stuff in the improved KoS, Steed Heralds and chariot-heralds but, losing invisibility gutted us pretty hard as it was our only way to mitigate our poor durability. We can't hide in combat anymore so every unit you have is going to have a life expectancy of a few turns. If you can't table the enemy by then it's already over.

Slaanesh mathammer:

Zarakynel has really bad damage per point unless she's targeting high invul targets like Girlyman. She is the hard hitter of Slaanesh though and has great mobility and survivability. Craps on terminators and storm shields. The bad damage can be atributed to the MAYBE typo of her claw weapon. It should have "bonus D3 attacks" on it or else it won't be used at all.

Keeper of secrets - Worse than GUO, better than BT

Herald: On exalted chariot(lashes)>On exalted chariot(claws)>On chariot(claws)>On steed>On chariot(lashes)>On foot. Lashes are especially good because the main weakness of exalted is getting weakened and the lashes aren't affected.

Masque is average.

Daemonettes are great.

Fiends are subpar so only use for the abilities.

Seekers are almost as good as Daemonettes along with having much better speed.

Helflayers do good damage but are really really really squishy. Not recommended.

Seeker chariot is good but exalted chariot is amazing. Once again, biggest weakness = getting weakened. On the last stage especially it becomes bad. Still the first stage is about 40% better than regular chariot while second is 10% worse (not exact % :p)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh boy buffs, Both heralds on chariots got even better since they got free lashes. No longer a choice

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Slaanesh mathammer:

Zarakynel has really bad damage per point unless she's targeting high invul targets like Girlyman. She is the hard hitter of Slaanesh though and has great mobility and survivability. Craps on terminators and storm shields. The bad damage can be atributed to the MAYBE typo of her claw weapon. It should have "bonus D3 attacks" on it or else it won't be used at all.

Keeper of secrets - Worse than GUO, better than BT

Herald: On exalted chariot(lashes)>On exalted chariot(claws)>On chariot(claws)>On steed>On chariot(lashes)>On foot. Lashes are especially good because the main weakness of exalted is getting weakened and the lashes aren't affected.

Masque is average.

Daemonettes are great.

Fiends are subpar so only use for the abilities.

Seekers are almost as good as Daemonettes along with having much better speed.

Helflayers do good damage but are really really really squishy. Not recommended.

Seeker chariot is good but exalted chariot is amazing. Once again, biggest weakness = getting weakened. On the last stage especially it becomes bad. Still the first stage is about 40% better than regular chariot while second is 10% worse (not exact % :p)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh boy buffs, Both heralds on chariots got even better since they got free lashes. No longer a choice

heralds on exalted chariots are targettable so no good at all they are too weak to get large amount of fire, so a normal chariot is better, seekers has too small damage output, i dont count ever the attacks from the "horse" just str 4 and no ap.

This was pure damage output. Seekers do almost the same damage as daemonettes, what do you mean you don't count those attacks? You do know that there's almost no difference between the claws a and a close combat weapon damage wise? -1 AP isn't at all anything to boast about and the -4 ap on 6s almost doesn't impact the calculations(I included it in the calculation before you ask)

If we were to take into account the targetable, not targetable, the normal chariot is obviously better

mounts deliver ap 0 hits, so their amount of damage is low, anyone can save against it, demonettes have always at least -1,demonette has more punch always, not counting 20+ demonettes gets plus 1 attack/model.

If we were to take into account the targetable, not targetable, the normal chariot is obviously better

well in 8th edition be not targettable is huge,anythjng die easily so if you can hide and not be shoot you have always the upper hand.