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Trying to figure out the best elite units I can use, I'm taking a dreadnought in a drop pod, but I'm torn between Sternguard and Assault Terminators

Id have to say sternguard squad in a razor back. 6 man team with little or even no upgrades and a razorback with min up's as well can actually put some real punch behind any push or even some pain on a HQ/MC. I like them for there model bits to, well both vets have some very nice bits.

Ironclads with drop pod (iron hands chapter tactics) and Legion Of The Damned (ignore cover) are very good units.

Legion of the Damned. Ignoring cover is pretty strong

I'd rank the top 3 like this:

1: Sternguard- even with minimal upgrades they are good against a range of target profiles, and with gear they can be kitted to be the most reliable anti-X unit in the army. As an alpha strike, part of a gunline or a rapid response force, these guys are hard to beat.

2: Ironclad Dread in Drop Pod: in terms of fear factor, this chap is one of the best in codex. With Melta or Flamer he can do damage on the drop, and after that will draw a load of fire from your army, and tank it better than most walkers. Either the enemy kills him, and your Rhinos/Podders get a turn unmolested, or the Ironclad proceeds to wrecking ball through the enemy DZ.

3: Legion of the Damned- I see these guys as Sternguard that trade some firepower for durability and precision, and more of a one-shot wonder. But they are, with Ignores Cover, even more specialist and precise, so well worth considering if you want pure precision AT without paying for the Sternguard's other toys.

Legion of the damned. Saves on points for a pod, ignores cover, 3++, fearless and relentless. That means any turn after the one that they come in they can shoot and assault to take advantage of the veteran profile, something sternguard can't do. Also means moving and shooting with a multimelta which is huge.

Sternguard do have 3 advantages over them in return. They can take more than 3 weapon upgrades (although any past 2 is one shot so they are equal on this after 1 turn of shooting), they have their spec ammo (but only on bolters unlike the ignores cover for all weapons of the LotD), and biggest of all - they can come in T1 with a drop pod. That last one alone can put them on par with LotD.

Very few things can compete with stenguard for potential flexibility.

Also, the ability to disembark from a pod and get a brief reposition more than makes up for the legion's greater deep strike accuracy.

The Legion of the Damned are still bloody scary, though. Especially if you take them as their own detachment - since the Damned Sergeant can take the Animus Malorem, which makes a stupidly tough unit even tougher; a 3+ invulnerable save and Feel No Pain is seriously scary.

 Paradigm wrote:
I'd rank the top 3 like this:

1: Sternguard- even with minimal upgrades they are good against a range of target profiles, and with gear they can be kitted to be the most reliable anti-X unit in the army. As an alpha strike, part of a gunline or a rapid response force, these guys are hard to beat.

2: Ironclad Dread in Drop Pod: in terms of fear factor, this chap is one of the best in codex. With Melta or Flamer he can do damage on the drop, and after that will draw a load of fire from your army, and tank it better than most walkers. Either the enemy kills him, and your Rhinos/Podders get a turn unmolested, or the Ironclad proceeds to wrecking ball through the enemy DZ.

3: Legion of the Damned- I see these guys as Sternguard that trade some firepower for durability and precision, and more of a one-shot wonder. But they are, with Ignores Cover, even more specialist and precise, so well worth considering if you want pure precision AT without paying for the Sternguard's other toys.

I think this is a pretty good summation of the top three. I think assault terminators also have a place, but they really want a LR to ride around in. So the price to field them gets very high. They do make a good hard counter to a lot of things though, so should get a nod as the 4th option IMHO.

In the right list almost anything can be made to work. Depending, of course, on how competitive your local meta is.

Personally i prefer to field dreadnoughts in pairs, i normally play three drop pods so i can bring 2 in on turn one.

Pair of Ironclads in pods is fearsome. Fairly cheap and drops in a threat you just can't ignore, and isn't all that easy to deal with.

Strenguard are solid, but really want to be focused into a role with special weapons, meaning that when geared to properly do their job, they lose out on flexibility to some extent.

Dreadnoughts, particularly the basic ones, need armor saturation to live. So in the wrong list they are just targets, but if you have enough vehicles on the table, they get much better.

I like my sternguard lean. 9/10 men in a pod (depending if a HQ is riding with them) With mostly basic bolters. I’ve been enjoying a pair of HFs lately, worth the points and lack of special ammo for them. I like to get my melta in other places, as you are going to need ~5-ish c-meltas to reliably drop a tank. For that kind of point investment, I’d rather get a seperate dedicated AV unit and keep the sternguard doing what they do best: Filling the enemies of man full of special bolter rounds.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I'd rank the top 3 like this:

1: Sternguard- even with minimal upgrades they are good against a range of target profiles, and with gear they can be kitted to be the most reliable anti-X unit in the army. As an alpha strike, part of a gunline or a rapid response force, these guys are hard to beat.

2: Ironclad Dread in Drop Pod: in terms of fear factor, this chap is one of the best in codex. With Melta or Flamer he can do damage on the drop, and after that will draw a load of fire from your army, and tank it better than most walkers. Either the enemy kills him, and your Rhinos/Podders get a turn unmolested, or the Ironclad proceeds to wrecking ball through the enemy DZ.

3: Legion of the Damned- I see these guys as Sternguard that trade some firepower for durability and precision, and more of a one-shot wonder. But they are, with Ignores Cover, even more specialist and precise, so well worth considering if you want pure precision AT without paying for the Sternguard's other toys.

I think this is a pretty good summation of the top three. I think assault terminators also have a place, but they really want a LR to ride around in. So the price to field them gets very high. They do make a good hard counter to a lot of things though, so should get a nod as the 4th option IMHO.

In the right list almost anything can be made to work. Depending, of course, on how competitive your local meta is.

Yep, Assault Termies get an honourable mention, as do Assault Cents, which I like to think of as a hyper-concentrated Tacticals rather than Termies+1. Honour Guard would probably take the no3 spot if they were elites; point for point I reckon they're there best melee in the codex, and the perfect cargo for a LR if you want one, and are taking a CM anyway.

Sternguard are the only correct answer, since you can get the Legion Of The Damned as allies and fit both easily into a list.

I'ma go the opposite route here and vote Vanguard Vets. The main reason is the wording of the poll though. I see Sternguard as the obvious answer, but I think that's because they fulfill multiple response roles tactically. In my mind that makes them the most tactically effective, but as I play BA, I'm not usually thinking along the lines of shooting alone.

When I think of the word "effective" I'm thinking, did the unit do the job I intended for it, and for me that's usually more melee oriented, so the Vanguard Vets end up being a more mobile wrecking crew that can also soak up a few shots on storm shields, pop something tanky, or utterly pummel a MEQ unit that I send em at, depending on the circumstances.

For me, the mobility ends up just being more important.

I'll chip in my opinion as well:

-Sternguard. I don't really need to explain this, as more than enough people have already done so.

-Honorable mention: UM Tyrannic War Vets; if all you need is mass Poison, then these guys will do the job a little bit cheaper than Sternguard. Downside is that they can only be used with UM Chapter Tactics (or if you don't like Ultras)

-Dreads, of all kinds. The Ironclad has been spoken of highly in this thread, and while the other Dreads need armor saturation to really work well, they do bring something that the Marines somewhat desperately need- masses of S7 shooting, in the form of the tried-and-true Rifleman Dread (IE, dual twin-linked ACs). There's also the "MM Dread in a Pod", because having one come down with an Ironclad is a good way to help the Ironclad live a little bit longer.

-Honorable mention: Legion of the Damned; 3++ saves, SnP, and blanket Ignores Cover (very nice for Plasma/Melta weapons) are pretty chill, though you can technically get these out of the relevant supplement, which is why they're only "honorable mention".

Sternguard. Hammernators take a close second.

Effective? Well, considering each unit fulfills a specialist role and you didn't mention what role you needed filled, the answer is Sternguard who can handle a wide range of opponents. So in a vacuum, Sternguard every time.

And if you're considering taking Tyrannic Vets, take their Formation for Infiltrating Stormtalons. That's why I use them. Four Veterans (still haven't bought more for some reason...) and Cassius in a Razorback, a Talon or two on the table Turn 1, I've actually had that demoralize a few of my opponents who are still scared of flyers. But, that doesn't take up slots. And doesn't force you to use Ultramarines Tactics. The Formation does that for you.

Sternguard with a drop pod and a deathwind ( correct me if im wrong, i dont play SM ) missle launcher on it can cause an absolutley staggering amount of damage, someone i play with has a 10 man squad fitted out with melta's, grav-guns and combi's of them, an absolute fright if you drop them behind a unit with high armour saves such as terminators, MC's and the like. The grav gun crushes high save models and the melta's chew away any sort of tank that stands infront of them, not to mention a large blast missle launcher! The special issue ammunition can also be very nasty as well!

More Dreadnaughts

if one go down there are two more to go punch face.

Preferably the ironclad kind. with Heavy flamers

ITs a very good way to lighting some troops on fire (besides power armor)

95% of matchups the Sternguard are the best choice, everything else (except tactical Terminators) has a good matchup, but Sternguard are a great generally-applicable unit.

 Will_H wrote:
Sternguard with a drop pod and a deathwind ( correct me if im wrong, i dont play SM ) missle launcher on it can cause an absolutley staggering amount of damage, someone i play with has a 10 man squad fitted out with melta's, grav-guns and combi's of them, an absolute fright if you drop them behind a unit with high armour saves such as terminators, MC's and the like. The grav gun crushes high save models and the melta's chew away any sort of tank that stands infront of them, not to mention a large blast missle launcher! The special issue ammunition can also be very nasty as well!

The problem with loading them up like that is the price. It can get out of hand very fast. So while they might be effective, they start to become less efficient.

Sternguard.

With Combimeltas there's literally nothing that they can't tackle. They also do a number against units that depend on high toughness or cover saves for protection (i.e., most of the problem units out there).

 Will_H wrote:
Sternguard with a drop pod and a deathwind ( correct me if im wrong, i dont play SM ) missle launcher on it can cause an absolutley staggering amount of damage, someone i play with has a 10 man squad fitted out with melta's, grav-guns and combi's of them, an absolute fright if you drop them behind a unit with high armour saves such as terminators, MC's and the like. The grav gun crushes high save models and the melta's chew away any sort of tank that stands infront of them, not to mention a large blast missle launcher! The special issue ammunition can also be very nasty as well!

I am the friend that uses those Sternguard, and I have to say that they have served me extremely well. Dropping them in, and combat squadding them immediately into a half-grav squad and half-melta squad is a really deadly combo. If you can drop them behind a land raider or other transport carrying pretty much any MEQ or TEQ, the melta squad will tear through the tank and then the gravs will annihilate anything that pops out!

Granted, they cost a lot of points, but there aren't many units that can deal that much damage to a Land Raider loaded with Termies in such a short space of time.

One quick thing though, whilst they are amazing at doing this, if you don't place your pod carefully, they may become an impromptu suicide squad, and you really do not want to use them like that as that will be many points down the drain unless you really are lucky. Placement is vital!

But I don't CARE about a LR full of termies. If my opponent has that on the board, they've already lost probably. I feel strongly that combi-Sternguard are too costly for their efficacy now. One shot wonders are dead to me.

The only problem is, as me and Doge have talked about, they are damn squishy.

With a normal SM stat line they aren't that durable, and if your going to spend 300+ points on a squad that doesnt number more than 10, well you have to be very careful the way you play them, the words "Glass" and "Cannon" come to mind, but if you know what you are doing with themn they can be very good.

For example if you stuck a libby on a squad of them with some divination pskyer abilites, you can give them 4+ invulnerable saves which is a massive up for a squad like that because, if they are on the board long enough, will become a huge bullet magnet.

Low AP weapons are hell for a squad like that, purely because people want them off the board and the quickest way to make sure they go away are low ap weapons ( which often correlate to high strength and a longer range, so the unit cannot get close to what you dont want it to ) and with the help of mr libby, the squad can buff off a few of those nasty instakill shots!

Hope this helps

Sternguard for sure. Whenever I used dreadnoughts I never got much mileage out of them, Veterans were ok. Terminators I had the worst luck with, and Tyranic War Vets fill a nice style, but weren't for me.

Universally I would have to go legion of the damned.

However it is too chapter/army comp specific otherwise.

Just based on the models/bits if you are buying them, 100% sternguard. that kit is AMAZING

 Leth wrote:
Just based on the models/bits if you are buying them, 100% sternguard. that kit is AMAZING

If someone was starting a SM force NIB, I’d strongly recommend the sternguard kit, just to spread around all the sergeants and specialists. It will make your entire army look cooler, and provide a host of options.

But if we are now evaluating elite options on looks and kits, the venerable dreadnought gets a major boost. While not everyone likes the walking washing machine, I do, and the kit is amazing. So many options to personalize it. If yours looks like someone else’s, it was intentional. Love the kit.

 Nevelon wrote:
While not everyone likes the walking washing machine,

I don't think I've ever seen a Dreadnought described in exactly those terms, but I like it.

Beware enemies of the Imperium. You've been set to Heavy Load: Spin Cycle.