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By "analogues of Termies", I meant other units that fill the same role. Not other units that wear TDA.

Marines are only half the armies of the game.

Bharring wrote:
By "analogues of Termies", I meant other units that fill the same role. Not other units that wear TDA.

Marines are only half the armies of the game.

However the other comparisons don't work from what you listed. Only Mutilators and Custodes were close.

Then why aren't Wraithblades/guards analogues? I see them as very close to Termies.

Bharring wrote:
Then why aren't Wraithblades/guards analogues? I see them as very close to Termies.

As do I. Some goes for Necron Lychguard and Ork Meganobs
TEQs may typically be T4 2+ armour models, but they should also include Xenos heavy infantry as they are all slow, tougher versions on the army's main infantry, typically in an Elite slot

-

Remember that Terminators lost 33% of their attacks on the charge. That's a pretty meaty nerf.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember that Terminators lost 33% of their attacks on the charge. That's a pretty meaty nerf.

SO did everyone else, though. An Termies went from striking last with fists and going first on the charge. So it evens out

-

Also, while they now do more Wounds, most targets have more wounds, no more ID, no more rear AV, and no more Vehicle Damage Chart.

In 7th, a Power Fist was Bad News Bears if it got to swing against just about anything. They're still scary, but not as scary, for a lot of the big stuff. 1 unsaved wound would kill most HQs back then.

Bharring wrote:
Also, while they now do more Wounds, most targets have more wounds, no more ID, no more rear AV, and no more Vehicle Damage Chart.

In 7th, a Power Fist was Bad News Bears if it got to swing against just about anything. They're still scary, but not as scary, for a lot of the big stuff. 1 unsaved wound would kill most HQs back then.

Yeah, terminators (and a lot of other heavy infantry come to think of it) have lost their teeth against vehicles and other larger targets. Powerfists certainly aren't what they used to be.

 Galef wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember that Terminators lost 33% of their attacks on the charge. That's a pretty meaty nerf.

SO did everyone else, though. An Termies went from striking last with fists and going first on the charge. So it evens out

-

No, not everyone lost 33% of their offense on the charge. It hits elite units with a small number of powerful attacks disproportionately hard.

It hit units with small numbers of attacks per model hard, elite or not.

 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Then why aren't Wraithblades/guards analogues? I see them as very close to Termies.

As do I. Some goes for Necron Lychguard and Ork Meganobs
TEQs may typically be T4 2+ armour models, but they should also include Xenos heavy infantry as they are all slow, tougher versions on the army's main infantry, typically in an Elite slot

-

I would maybe equate Meganobz for TEQ (they lack the natural Deep Strike of course), but Lychguard aren't fitting the bill at all. They're more akin to being a bodyguard of sorts, but whether they fulfill that role is a different discussion (they don't).

I would be willing to see Praetorian get made into their TEQ by making them WS/BS2+ and making their Stratagem into a +1 to wound in both phases. Not sure if that requires any different pricing but that's my vision for them at least.

Bharring wrote:
It hit units with small numbers of attacks per model hard, elite or not.

I think it hurt units with more models per unit more, does it not?

A unit of 5 with base 2A is affected equally as a unit of 5 with base 1A (both used to get +5A on charge), as opposed to a unit of 10 with base 1A vs unit of 5 with base 2A (10x1+10 vs 5x2+5)?

But it's proportional. My Plaguebearers (1 Attack each) lost 50% of their damage output on the charge.

Terminators lost only 33%.

By that argument, a unit of 5 with 4A each is affected equally as a unit of 5 with 2A each. They each lose the +5 attacks. The first loses 20% of it's attacks. The second loses 33% of it's attacks.

It hurts a 5man Termie squad more than a 5man Storm Guardian squad more per model, certainly. But it hurts a 200pt Termie squad less than it hurts 200 points of Storm Guardians.

I would argue per-point is the more accurate way of looking at it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember that Terminators lost 33% of their attacks on the charge. That's a pretty meaty nerf.

SO did everyone else, though. An Termies went from striking last with fists and going first on the charge. So it evens out

-

No, not everyone lost 33% of their offense on the charge. It hits elite units with a small number of powerful attacks disproportionately hard.

Yeah this is actually part of the real problem terminators have. I think they underperform because most SM lists are not assault oriented while termies could be a good back up unit when you have 2-3 other squads that hit hard first. With my SW a unit of 5 termies with 3 TH/SS and two swords/storm bolters costs 211 points and it's useless on its own but if you have Arjac they got +1A, with Wulfen or a character wearing the Wulfen Stone it's another +1A. Combined with the re-rolls granted by Wolf Lords, Arjac, Battle Leaders and/or Wolf Priests and they become decent. Of course there would be TWC, Wulfen, Blood Claws or 1 or more units of Wolf Guard (bikes, jump packs) to fight with them so the charactes could buff multiple units, but theese combinations let a 200ish points unit of terminators worth something. SW termies also have a +1 to hit in combat like pretty much the entire army, which also helps.

They just lack synergies with most of the SM lists, that's their problem. More buffs? Certainly, but not as a consequence of re-writting their profile but thanks to buffing characters and/or strategems.

Ork Meganobz are 35 points each, almost not shooting, 3 attacks but dealing D3 wounds instead of the flat 3 granted by hammers, 3W but no invuln at all and just 4'' movement, deep striking them costs 2 CPs. And yet they are a unit that performs well. Not because of their profile, but because they may have decent synergies with the rest of the list.

Units like terminators or meganobz are terrible if they act as the single melee unit that should clear the battlefield of the biggests threats. That's not their role.

bananathug wrote:
The problems with termies are lack of offensive output and limited mobility, IMHO.

Regular termies, replace regular powerfist stats with +1 attack, +2 str, -2 ap, 1d, let them mount 2x storm bolters, let the heavy use grav/plasma (1mw on overheat)/melta,AC,dual HB, 2+WS/BS, invlun to a 4++, 3rd wound and allow them to teleport shunt for 1 cp (basic deepstrike but can do it from on the table, not a strat so multiple units can do it?)

Assault termies add 1-2 to movement and charge/advance rolls. Can charge after advancing. No negatives to hit rolls for melee weapons. +1 str, 3w, 4++, 3rd wound, teleport shunt and maybe a native -1 to hit vs shooting attacks outside of 12.

With all that at current cost I think they'd see the table (they may even need a couple more points). I don't want them cheaper as the race to the bottom isn't a war that marines should try to win (leave that to guard).

Are you serious? 1. if change power fist stats for them have to change for every faction that has a power fist or access to termie armour (a lot), + other stuff crazy talk. To much if they have to change this across multiple factions. They have to make a change to termie armour that can be easily implemented across the multiple armies that use termie armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Only a few weeks and CA will be out so lets see what will be


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm still betting on reduced cost as a must to all termie armour units. If give extra will be -1 to all damage suffered if stay the same cost, or as an addition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
IDK every few pages read this thread and people are always spamming stuff for SM termie units only. They are not the only termies, there are a lot of characters and units + SM + factions and special sub factions like; GK, Deathwatch, Deathwing, Inquisitor and many many more all have access to termie armour. Changes have to affect all. So they can't be radical but something that is inclusive and easy.

I've already made that point long ago, hence my suggestions.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
IDK every few pages read this thread and people are always spamming stuff for SM termie units only. They are not the only termies, there are a lot of characters and units + SM + factions and special sub factions like; GK, Deathwatch, Deathwing, Inquisitor and many many more all have access to termie armour. Changes have to affect all. So they can't be radical but something that is inclusive and easy.

The change does have to affect all, but they can absolutely and should be radical. Terminators are absolute joke of a unit - FLGS and GW brick and mortars don't stock on termies anymore because it sells maybe 1 box a year for new player.

I wouldn't be surprised if GW actually stopped the production for termies already.

Many kits that are not about troops and transports sell just 1 maybe 2 boxes a year for new player though. Even more competitive units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.

Wow... Haven't been back on the board in a bit, had to catch back up.

You're wrong, and calling my a liar isn't going to change that. I don't appreciate the insult either.

txaggieof08 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.

Wow... Haven't been back on the board in a bit, had to catch back up.

You're wrong, and calling my a liar isn't going to change that. I don't appreciate the insult either.

By all means find all the times Deathwing did anything in any tournament then to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting for a reply.

Termies in general just need a buff in terms of strategems, special rules, and damage output. The fact they suffer from movement while trying to fire heavy weapons equally stupid. AS they have had the relentless special rule for 4+ editions until 8th.

Give termies access to grenade harnesses on all of em. its free so why the helk not?

It would give them so devastating fire power and retaining their role as anti-infantry. (plus you can do that in 30k).

I think giving termies a strategem that ignores all penalties to hit would go along way as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

txaggieof08 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.

Wow... Haven't been back on the board in a bit, had to catch back up.

You're wrong, and calling my a liar isn't going to change that. I don't appreciate the insult either.

By all means find all the times Deathwing did anything in any tournament then to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting for a reply.

...I don't know where to find 3e/4e-vintage tournament results.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

txaggieof08 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.

Wow... Haven't been back on the board in a bit, had to catch back up.

You're wrong, and calling my a liar isn't going to change that. I don't appreciate the insult either.

By all means find all the times Deathwing did anything in any tournament then to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting for a reply.

...I don't know where to find 3e/4e-vintage tournament results.

Oh please

Terminators were at MOST mediocre in 4th thanks to double Assault Cannons with old Rending. Deathwing didn't change that, and it would be a shame for you to lie to yourself about that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

txaggieof08 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.

Wow... Haven't been back on the board in a bit, had to catch back up.

You're wrong, and calling my a liar isn't going to change that. I don't appreciate the insult either.

By all means find all the times Deathwing did anything in any tournament then to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting for a reply.

...I don't know where to find 3e/4e-vintage tournament results.

Oh please

Terminators were at MOST mediocre in 4th thanks to double Assault Cannons with old Rending. Deathwing didn't change that, and it would be a shame for you to lie to yourself about that.

This is some classy debating going on right here. Makes me wonder why I bother looking on the forum sometimes.

Andykp wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

txaggieof08 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.

Wow... Haven't been back on the board in a bit, had to catch back up.

You're wrong, and calling my a liar isn't going to change that. I don't appreciate the insult either.

By all means find all the times Deathwing did anything in any tournament then to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting for a reply.

...I don't know where to find 3e/4e-vintage tournament results.

Oh please

Terminators were at MOST mediocre in 4th thanks to double Assault Cannons with old Rending. Deathwing didn't change that, and it would be a shame for you to lie to yourself about that.

This is some classy debating going on right here. Makes me wonder why I bother looking on the forum sometimes.

What debate is there? Terminators weren't good in early editions, and pretending they were doesn't solve the problem because you want to be nostalgic about the all-or-nothing AP system.

Funny thing is bullgryns, which are probably the most commonly found TEQ in the imperium, are the most efficient unit out there IMHO. Cheaper than a custodes dude, more durable than any termi, they have many attacks and are great against anything but toughness 8 stuff.
I have 9 and there rare times i get to field them (as imp guards are waaaay too numerous where i play, hence i face opponents who'd rather fight against something else) they always do incredebly well.
They should be the measure stick for TEQs. Evis sunz Meganobz are great too thanks to da jump.

For the life of me, can't get why GW is so bad at costing termis and such...

I mean it's pretty obvious most termi units should cost a lot less than bullgryns, even if fluffwise it makes no sense (well one could say training a bullgryn takes so much time and imperial manpower that we could get thinking "ok, that is why costs more than an sm termi"

Just give termi a special rule to move, shoot, move again, shoot again, and charge, get retro hammer of wrath hits on the charge.

Give termi special rule to shoot twice on over watch.

Give special rule for termi to get additional attacks in combat for each wound suffered.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Just give termi a special rule to move, shoot, move again, shoot again, and charge, get retro hammer of wrath hits on the charge.

Give termi special rule to shoot twice on over watch.

Give special rule for termi to get additional attacks in combat for each wound suffered.

Just make them close combat specialists instead of heavy generalist infantries, which is something that many SM armies lacks. 5 dudes with power fists and shields only cost 170 points now, 10W with 2+/3++, free deepstrike, and powerful hits. Just give them the appropriate buffs.

My SW termies have the +1 to hit in combat chapter trait, +1 or +2 A thanks to some auras, and re-rolling 1s to hit and/or to wound thanks to other buffing auras. Priests can give them the full re-roll to the hit rolls in combat and can even heal wounded models.

To make termies worth it just bring a list that synergizes well with them without centering the list itself around them. They can work decently with SW because all the buffing auras are due to characters, wargear and other units you may want anyway. With wulfen, arjac and a wolf priest (or even no wulfen but the relic wulfen stone on him) for 170 points you get 21A hitting on 3s at S8 AP-3 DD3, re-rolling all failed hits and all 1s to wound. Those two characters also buff the wulfen at the same time, especially the priest is almost an auto take with wulfen and wulfen are almost an auto take in any SW list.

I think Terminators were 'good/OK' back in 2nd edition.

Well, at least Space Wolf versions were!

We'd need to go back to a proper AP system with termies saving on 2d6 in order for them to be good again!