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Orock wrote: Had my first game with my tag with my opponent having a hacker.
I like tight rules systems, but good god these rules are like trying to decipher a foreign language you don't speak.
Can you use all of these programs with any hacker?
A Hacker can only use the programs associated with the type of Hacking Device that he is equiped.
That is: if the unit entry says: Hacker (Hacking Device), the Hacker may only use those program associated with the regular Hacking Device (see top part of pg. 249 of the Rulebook).
A Hacker with (Hacking Device Plus) may use any program associated with the entries under Hacking Device Plus (bottom part pg. 249), etc.
I've only used hacking in one game so far so have no real experience to draw on but it eliminates the biggest issue; determining which programs you can use.
Working out which programs suit which situation is a whole different issue.
The link above is a good resource, the main thing is knowing the unit classification code, special ammo rules and stat effects. It the reason it not in the main rules and was put under advanced rules, it is a lot to take in at first. But, so worth it when you learn to use it. Is does mean almost ever list needs a hacker or two.
An it isn't going to get easier. We know of two new hacker devices coming in N3HS. One on the EVO remote the other a hacker killer device. Both with new programs.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
Since I'm a visual person, over reading and I like watching examples, I found that these helped break it down a bit better. Once you break it down a bit, it isn't as complicated as versatile.
Hacking is indeed terribly complex and it's long been something I wanted an entire rework of in Infinity N3.
They need to remove like 50% of the programs and readjust the way hacking is done. Currently hacking is absurdly inefficient and they are almost always a waste of time when you spend orders on them, obviously this does not include supportware. Offensive hacking is, ironically, almost only worthwhile when used as ARO's, currently the best way to shut something hackable target down is to deploy or shoot (marker) a repeater in the area around the desired target and then wait for the ARO-phase, so you can trigger 1-3 hacking ARO's simultaneously, rather than spending 1 order at a time for 1 hacking attempt by 1 hacker at a time, increasing your odds of getting a succesfull hack through and forcing your opponent to reset as his 2nd shortskill or face several hacking attempts unopposed.
The main problem with hacking in the active phase is primarily due to the following:
The primary hacking programs that has a worthwhile function have a low B value
The amount of hackable target are relatively scarce and several armies can make an entirely competitive list without having hackable targets.
The targets that are hackable, especially HI and TAG's, have almost all a shockingly high BTS value and even if they are relatively low, an opponent that is aware of enemy hacking can just spend an order on a supportware (which can never fail) that can boost the HI up to a value that ranges between high and not even worth trying to hack
The succesrate on worthwhile programs is simply too low due to how the mechanic of hacking works, having to win a FTF roll vs your opponent with a low B value hack and then hope that he fails his BTS save is so unreliable that you often waste 3-4 orders on accomplishing your goal, which isn't always worthwhile
The hacking devices are almost all absurdly specific. The assault hacking device is godlike vs TAG's or REM's but useless against virtually anything else, so you basically need to know if you're facing a TAG or REM-heavy army in order to justify your investment. Then you have units like Interventors with HD+ who are excellent hackers but if you're only ever using them for supportware and nothing to hack, then you might as well just buy a moderator hacker and get it over with
In my opinion the B value of all the hacking programs should be 1 and almost all programs should be doable by all the devices and the only difference between the different devices would be modifiers applied to them, so an assault hacking device would have +3 mod in FTF against a tag he tried to posses (while the TAG would suffer -3 to his WIP in the FTF) but he would have -3/-6 mods for the other programs, like brain blast, so he would still be able to perform other hacks but he would better against specific targets and have no acces to supportware. The primary reason that hacking is weak is mostly due to the fact that almost no programs gives mods to the hacker, some even give negative mods to the hacker, followed by a BTS save.
Also, if it were up to me, I'd also make a HD that had no programs but supportware to REM's so you could get a cheap HD with no SWC that barely allowed you to field REM's
At the same time, Zewrath, people are complaining that hacking has all but made TAGs obsolete.
I do agree that trimming the programs down would be nice. Less "this is a straight upgrade of that" or "slightly different" that we've got.
Gotcha, Basilisk, Carbonite and Stop needs to be redesigned to one or two programs only, in my opinion.
Mahtamori wrote: At the same time, Zewrath, people are complaining that hacking has all but made TAGs obsolete.
I do agree that trimming the programs down would be nice. Less "this is a straight upgrade of that" or "slightly different" that we've got.
Gotcha, Basilisk, Carbonite and Stop needs to be redesigned to one or two programs only, in my opinion.
How so? Most worthwhile TAG' are minimum BTS 6, most are 9 and all with a high WIP. Getting inside hacking area, movement and getting through with an actual useful hack can easily cost you anything between 6-8 orders, which usually means you are a few orders away from starting to move your units to the ARO phase and/or doing objectives, meanwhile, your opponent can instantly nullify your hack by either resetting, engineering (he'll have one nearby to protect his point investment) it to normal state or simply cancel POS with a command token if you actually managed to get that through.
TAG's aren't obsolete, I've never heard that claim before, they are simply just not worth the point cost because they can't take objectives and will suck many orders out of of your list, which is usually a very bad thing for ITS-centered game play as specialists and more orders are way more useful. That's what's wrong with TAG's.
Was going to say.. try telling hacking is obsolete to the three or four guys who were fragged by a Marut in the last game I played.. !
That video is worth watching, I think that along with Captain Spud should help.
Hacking is almost like a mini-game within the game for N3. It's certainly adds a bit more rules knowledge to the game but good fun when you get going with it.
Yes, I'm aware of that distinction. I do most of my Hacking in the active turn, because my opponent will usually shoot the Repeater with an unhackable trooper in their turn.
In the link above you'll see the calculated chance of success when using a very good WIP 15 Interventor with HD+ attempting to hack a Guijia with a very common BTS and WIP value for TAG's (although many good TAG's have higher BTS), you'll notice that most common programs used against TAG's will have a success chance of anything between ~25% to just below 31% depending on BTS 6 or 9 and what program you're using, you'll nearly never get anything above those numbers and thats's using the profile of a WIP 15 hacker possessing a HD+.
With such a low chance of success, you really can't make the claim that hacking is reliable, let alone order efficient (not counting supportware) in the active phase. Again, I really don't see how spending 2-3 orders on getting a target inside a hacking area and then statistically spend another 3-4 orders on either IMM, Isolate or sometimes posses is worth so many orders, especially when you have objectives that you need to complete and a lot of other (usually) order-hungry troops you need to relocate.
Again, this makes hacking much better in the ARO because you're not spending orders on it, all your hackers can hack simultaneously and if you manage to get through with a hacking program then you're either disabling a unit or forcing your opponent to waste orders on fixing the victim.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/13 16:24:20
Hacking chances of success are low, but often better than say firing a combo at a TAG in f2f and hoping to shut it down..it is much more efficient in aro, but in many cases is a good option. In active turn.
An army that invests a little into hacking with repeaters and markers has a large hacking area they can target with the possibility of keeping their hackers relatively safe and able to affect areas of the gameboard they don't have to be in or have LoF to with the TAGREM or HI having the option to pretty much just use reset.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 16:51:26
Yes right, think they can be a quite useful area denial tool if you're presented with a lot of HI or TAGs.
I find them quite annoying if you can get one inside a building or something next to an objective, or in the path of enemy, and then annoy them with hacking attacks as they try and move forward. If they have to then burn orders to try and turf you out then again it's a win-win, even if the hacker gets toasted ultimately.
In the link above you'll see the calculated chance of success when using a very good WIP 15 Interventor with HD+ attempting to hack a Guijia with a very common BTS and WIP value for TAG's (although many good TAG's have higher BTS), you'll notice that most common programs used against TAG's will have a success chance of anything between ~25% to just below 31% depending on BTS 6 or 9 and what program you're using, you'll nearly never get anything above those numbers and thats's using the profile of a WIP 15 hacker possessing a HD+.
With such a low chance of success, you really can't make the claim that hacking is reliable, let alone order efficient (not counting supportware) in the active phase. Again, I really don't see how spending 2-3 orders on getting a target inside a hacking area and then statistically spend another 3-4 orders on either IMM, Isolate or sometimes posses is worth so many orders, especially when you have objectives that you need to complete and a lot of other (usually) order-hungry troops you need to relocate.
Again, this makes hacking much better in the ARO because you're not spending orders on it, all your hackers can hack simultaneously and if you manage to get through with a hacking program then you're either disabling a unit or forcing your opponent to waste orders on fixing the victim.
An Interventor using Overlord in the active turn is pretty much the worst possible option for hacking a TAG, even if the potential reward is high. :(
A Zero using Carbonite from Camo is on just under 62% (55% without Surprise Shot) to immobilise the TAG for the current turn so that you can shoot it unopposed/get a Morlock into combat, or 49% using Basilisk to do that or leave it to burn Orders Resetting against your Hacking AROs.
For actions where the target can't harm the attacker, that's as good as the odds get in the game.
In the link above you'll see the calculated chance of success when using a very good WIP 15 Interventor with HD+ attempting to hack a Guijia with a very common BTS and WIP value for TAG's (although many good TAG's have higher BTS), you'll notice that most common programs used against TAG's will have a success chance of anything between ~25% to just below 31% depending on BTS 6 or 9 and what program you're using, you'll nearly never get anything above those numbers and thats's using the profile of a WIP 15 hacker possessing a HD+.
With such a low chance of success, you really can't make the claim that hacking is reliable, let alone order efficient (not counting supportware) in the active phase. Again, I really don't see how spending 2-3 orders on getting a target inside a hacking area and then statistically spend another 3-4 orders on either IMM, Isolate or sometimes posses is worth so many orders, especially when you have objectives that you need to complete and a lot of other (usually) order-hungry troops you need to relocate.
Again, this makes hacking much better in the ARO because you're not spending orders on it, all your hackers can hack simultaneously and if you manage to get through with a hacking program then you're either disabling a unit or forcing your opponent to waste orders on fixing the victim.
An Interventor using Overlord in the active turn is pretty much the worst possible option for hacking a TAG, even if the potential reward is high. :(
A Zero using Carbonite from Camo is on just under 62% (55% without Surprise Shot) to immobilise the TAG for the current turn so that you can shoot it unopposed/get a Morlock into combat, or 49% using Basilisk to do that or leave it to burn Orders Resetting against your Hacking AROs.
For actions where the target can't harm the attacker, that's as good as the odds get in the game.
You'll shoot him once, other than that than he will just keep declaring Reset as his ARO which, realistically, only leaves you 1 order to fire in unopposed and unless you have a missile launcher or auto cannon nearby, you're not bringing down any TAG with 1 shot only, so if you wish to keep shooting unopposed, you're gonna' need to re-hack that TAG.. Massive waste of orders.
In the link above you'll see the calculated chance of success when using a very good WIP 15 Interventor with HD+ attempting to hack a Guijia with a very common BTS and WIP value for TAG's (although many good TAG's have higher BTS), you'll notice that most common programs used against TAG's will have a success chance of anything between ~25% to just below 31% depending on BTS 6 or 9 and what program you're using, you'll nearly never get anything above those numbers and thats's using the profile of a WIP 15 hacker possessing a HD+.
With such a low chance of success, you really can't make the claim that hacking is reliable, let alone order efficient (not counting supportware) in the active phase. Again, I really don't see how spending 2-3 orders on getting a target inside a hacking area and then statistically spend another 3-4 orders on either IMM, Isolate or sometimes posses is worth so many orders, especially when you have objectives that you need to complete and a lot of other (usually) order-hungry troops you need to relocate.
Again, this makes hacking much better in the ARO because you're not spending orders on it, all your hackers can hack simultaneously and if you manage to get through with a hacking program then you're either disabling a unit or forcing your opponent to waste orders on fixing the victim.
An Interventor using Overlord in the active turn is pretty much the worst possible option for hacking a TAG, even if the potential reward is high. :(
A Zero using Carbonite from Camo is on just under 62% (55% without Surprise Shot) to immobilise the TAG for the current turn so that you can shoot it unopposed/get a Morlock into combat, or 49% using Basilisk to do that or leave it to burn Orders Resetting against your Hacking AROs.
For actions where the target can't harm the attacker, that's as good as the odds get in the game.
You'll shoot him once, other than that than he will just keep declaring Reset as his ARO which, realistically, only leaves you 1 order to fire in unopposed and unless you have a missile launcher or auto cannon nearby, you're not bringing down any TAG with 1 shot only, so if you wish to keep shooting unopposed, you're gonna' need to re-hack that TAG.. Massive waste of orders.
What faction do you play. As Nomad one shot on a TAGis all i need to shut it down for the game, Glue is great. ALEPH monomine trap, SP HRL. CA even more options. Then you have Coordinate Orders for BS Attack from 4 different unit at once. If someone plays it the way you layed out they deserve to lose. Think out side the box and at least 2 Order ahead.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
Pacific wrote: ...Hacking is almost like a mini-game within the game for N3...
Which, according to my limited experience with it, means it is a distraction from the regular game. It should be a component of the game, not a sub-game, and be better integrated into the game. I would like to see it stream-lined, and something done about the proliferation of the hacking programs. ( 25 and counting... ugh. ) It plays a bit like it was 'bolted on', at least for Haqq.
Perhaps it is part of CB's clever plan to get eveyone playing USAriadna?
Actually, "wasting" two or three orders to destroy or Immobilize a TAG isn't that bad. Most TAGs are expensive thus cost your opponent also two or three, maybe even four, orders beforehand.
I'd assume most players do not use their TAG as an abundant firemagnet, except scarface maybe
Red Harvest wrote: It plays a bit like it was 'bolted on', at least for Haqq.
To be fair, if you want to Immobilise HI or a TAG with Haqq, you can just throw a 5pt Ghazi at it and IMM-2 it with an E/Marat hit. Since EMP halves BTS, it's actually not that unreliable.
Especially when is just so easy to fit a pair of Ghazi in a list.
An Interventor using Overlord in the active turn is pretty much the worst possible option for hacking a TAG, even if the potential reward is high. :(
A Zero using Carbonite from Camo is on just under 62% (55% without Surprise Shot) to immobilise the TAG for the current turn so that you can shoot it unopposed/get a Morlock into combat, or 49% using Basilisk to do that or leave it to burn Orders Resetting against your Hacking AROs.
For actions where the target can't harm the attacker, that's as good as the odds get in the game.
You'll shoot him once, other than that than he will just keep declaring Reset as his ARO which, realistically, only leaves you 1 order to fire in unopposed and unless you have a missile launcher or auto cannon nearby, you're not bringing down any TAG with 1 shot only, so if you wish to keep shooting unopposed, you're gonna' need to re-hack that TAG.. Massive waste of orders.
As Noir says, Nomads are full of stuff that can potentially one-shot a TAG, even if you ignore Coordinated Orders. Missile Launchers, ADHLs, Panzerfausts, E-Mitters, the only EMLGL that's still in the game, E/Maulers etc. I already mentioned Morlocks, a 6pt trooper with EMCCW that unopposed has a 50% chance of causing a wound but more importantly a 70% chance of putting the TAG into IMM-2 state permanently, but a Chimera and Pupniks also have around a 50% chance of taking off 3 STR in a single Order.
IJW wrote: I already mentioned Morlocks, a 6pt trooper with EMCCW that unopposed has a 50% chance of causing a wound
That's on a light TAG (or Achilles 2.0), Guijia is 40% and Jotums is 30%. Crits for E/M CCW are on the E/M component, not the Normal component. I'll make a bug report regarding it for the dice calculator thingy
I tend to work on the principle of including a hacking device and an assault hacking device (Usually on a cammo infiltrator) in each list I write.
(Defensive devices and +devices are pretty niche)
It means you have a couple of specialists and will look to use hacking in order to get your monies worth from then, so over time you will become more familiar with the programs.
I also recommend including a unit that can take advantage of the supportware as this means you always have a use for them and can utilise them regardless of what your opponent brings to the table
Groundworks wrote: I tend to work on the principle of including a hacking device and an assault hacking device (Usually on a cammo infiltrator) in each list I write.
(Defensive devices and +devices are pretty niche)
Cybermask alone make HD+ worth there cost. White Noise shuts down camo hunting MSV and the rest are just the icing on top.
When you can walk across a 7in gap and all the other guy can do is discover you before you end your move in total cover. Then use Cybermask to do it again.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
Hacking can be extremely effective! Just don't go overboard, as you still need to spend points on bullets and missiles, instead of too many on computer science kids and repeaters.
Overlord from say, a Custodier, is hitting on 14s vs the enemy reset (fairly even for both sides), and taking over an enemy BTS6 TAG 55% of the time. That's not bad for an order where the enemy cannot hurt you doing it. And once you've grabbed the TAG, they've got tough choices especially if it's equipped with template weapons.
Then you run the thing into your own lines, deeper into your repeater field, and shut it down in the reactive turn IF they get the thing back.
AROing HI traversing a repeater zone is a nightmare for the HI, since with resets, it'll take a bare minimum of 3 orders to cross the area potentially covered with a single repeater. Any failure and they're blowing more orders rebooting. That's vicious.
Isolating a nasty attack unit (such as say, a Swiss Guard or Charontid or whatever) is basically as good as killing it. Same with doing the same to a TAG using Oblivion.
Really, Hacking is very powerful. You just need to make sure it's used to neutralize or deny things that matter, and that you have a good enough list to make do without it as well. You almost never really need 2 or more hackers. Usually one elite or two schmoes plus some repeaaters is more than enough. You may not even want that, depending on your list.
Noir wrote:Cybermask alone make HD+ worth there cost. White Noise shuts down camo hunting MSV and the rest are just the icing on top.
When you can walk across a 7in gap and all the other guy can do is discover you before you end your move in total cover. Then use Cybermask to do it again.
Agree totally with the value of the HD+ but as with the defensive device its something that is not available to everyone.
Playing Nomads i'd say go for it and take one over a regular device and learn the use of the additional programs with the rest.
Maybe do the same with CA via the Umbra Legate.
But with Aleph the Asura is quite an investment and I think in this instance you would want to be building your list and strategy around this pick
As with the defensive device its more faction specific which is why I describe them as niche
Killionaire wrote:Hacking can be extremely effective! Just don't go overboard, as you still need to spend points on bullets and missiles, instead of too many on computer science kids and repeaters.
Overlord from say, a Custodier, is hitting on 14s vs the enemy reset (fairly even for both sides), and taking over an enemy BTS6 TAG 55% of the time. That's not bad for an order where the enemy cannot hurt you doing it. And once you've grabbed the TAG, they've got tough choices especially if it's equipped with template weapons.
Then you run the thing into your own lines, deeper into your repeater field, and shut it down in the reactive turn IF they get the thing back.
AROing HI traversing a repeater zone is a nightmare for the HI, since with resets, it'll take a bare minimum of 3 orders to cross the area potentially covered with a single repeater. Any failure and they're blowing more orders rebooting. That's vicious.
Isolating a nasty attack unit (such as say, a Swiss Guard or Charontid or whatever) is basically as good as killing it. Same with doing the same to a TAG using Oblivion.
Really, Hacking is very powerful. You just need to make sure it's used to neutralize or deny things that matter, and that you have a good enough list to make do without it as well. You almost never really need 2 or more hackers. Usually one elite or two schmoes plus some repeaaters is more than enough. You may not even want that, depending on your list.
Agree totally, but I still advocate 2 for: redundancy, the fact they are specialists and in the case of this thread to give you access to all programs for the purposes of learning the programs' ins and outs.
Perhaps further down the line you will run lists without any but you will still benefit from understanding their capabilities if your opponent deploys them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 09:35:06
8k points
3k points
3k points
I would like to see it stream-lined, and something done about the proliferation of the hacking programs. ( 25 and counting... ugh. 
) It plays a bit like it was 'bolted on', at least for Haqq.
(expanding to 
) 
