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I was just wondering if anyone else noticed that 90% of the stuff on showcase is just studios or commisioners bumming for buisness? Shouldnt there be a forum topic for their adds?

Everyone seems to be just posting finished pieces in painting and modeling and leaving showcase for the studios.

Not sure if anyone noticed but over the years people posting finished models droped by alot and new painters posting pics is nearly non-existant.

There is no learning and proud of my model topics at all, and like I said showcase is just a free add space. Go to heresy, 40konline or any other place and it is the same five names posting everywhere showing their work looking for buisness.

Come on mods make a sub-forum for them and then we can try and get the up amd comers back to posting pics.

Out of the first 10 threads currently in the Showcase section, 2 are from professionals.

So no, I'm noticing considerably less than 90%.


The purpose of the Showcase isn't just for painters to get feedback, but also for people to see cool painted miniatures.

And, besides, a lot of the professional painters do still like getting feedback. The fact that someone paid for the paintjob doesn't change the fact that someone did the work...


There's no need for a separate section. The Showcase is functioning as intended.

I think he's referring to this forum
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/73.page
I kind of agree that there's alot of commission folks sublty or not-so-subltly using it to hawk their wares of promote their work.

I don't think that a new forum is necessarily warranted, as they should be able to show their work as well. However, enforced application of a [commission] tag for those posting things that are built on commission or for sale would be very welcome.

It's nice to be able to filter out the pro's from the working joe's sometimes. Further there's generally a different vibe when you're reading the posts of someone doing it for themeselves vs. the posts that are riddled with things such as
"see my facebook"
"I've got commission spots"
"not sure if this is for me or for ebay"
"This will be available soon"
"More at this link" (followed by and ebay store link)
etc, etc ad nauseum...

I'd certainly frequent that forum more often if I could skip the Commission work more easily.

 Eilif wrote:
I think he's referring to this forum
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/73.page
I kind of agree that there's alot of commission folks sublty or not-so-subltly using it to hawk their wares of promote their work.

I don't think that a new forum is necessarily warranted, as they should be able to show their work as well. However, enforced application of a [commission] tag for those posting things that are built on commission or for sale would be very welcome.

It's nice to be able to filter out the pro's from the working joe's sometimes. Further there's generally a different vibe when you're reading the posts of someone doing it for themeselves vs. the posts that are riddled with things such as
"see my facebook"
"I've got commission spots"
"not sure if this is for me or for ebay"
"This will be available soon"
"More at this link" (followed by and ebay store link)
etc, etc ad nauseum...

I'd certainly frequent that forum more often if I could skip the Commission work more easily.

That's also what Insaniak was referring to!

Personally, I don't quite get your beef with professionals being allowed to use the Showcase. Granted, I do have a dog in this fight. However I really like checking out everyone's work, other studios included. A project done on commission has just as much artistic validity as one done for fun.

~Tim?

I only really find it grating when the post is a set of externally hosted images and a quartet of CMON, Facebook and ad links with little or no explanation.
You know that same post has graced 5-10 other forums on a paste list and will never be read again by the author.
That's not creating with people in mind, or to add discussion, and I am less fond of it.

Moving to Nuts & Bolts

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Personally, I don't quite get your beef with professionals being allowed to use the Showcase.

I differ from the OP in that I don't have a problem with professionals being in the showcase. I just think that a title tag indicating that it's a commercial studio would be a polite notation for those of us looking for a certain kind of content experience. If I want to see advertisements for miniatures Dakka has a lovely Swap Shop section. It seems to me that a "commercial" or "Commission" tag would be a neat middle ground between allowing those who wish to avoid sales pitches to pass by while bringing the best possible artistic content (much of which is done for profit) into the Showcase.

I would think that such a tag would also allow those looking for commission work to more easily find such artists as well.

Most of the professional studios already do that anyway.

Honestly, though, I'm really not seeing why it's a problem. A pretty miniature is no less pretty just because it was painted for cash. So if you're visiting the Showcase to see pretty miniatures, why sites if matter if it was painted by a professional?

 insaniak wrote:
Most of the professional studios already do that anyway.

Honestly, though, I'm really not seeing why it's a problem. A pretty miniature is no less pretty just because it was painted for cash. So if you're visiting the Showcase to see pretty miniatures, why sites if matter if it was painted by a professional?

Because, whether it's accurate in specific individual cases or not, there's a perception that work done for money doesn't have the same passion behind it as work done for personal satisfaction, and for some folk that does change how they see the final product. And often that perception is entirely justified - I have zero interest in looking at bare-minimum-effort airbrush-painted tabletop quality armies, but the frequency that such armies appear in Showcase has been increasing pretty much in line with the increase in barely-disguised shillposts, to the point that forum has gone from being one I checked every time I visited Dakka to one I check every month or two, when I can be bothered trawling through to find the posts of the type I actually want to see.

That aside, there's also a hint of special treatment about it; bringing a commercial tinge into posting in any other section of the forum is likely to get you mod attention, so why do commission painters get a pass? Would you be happy with people offering a commission fluff-writing service cluttering up the various Background forums with threads containing excerpts of their work and loads of links to where you can buy a custom story of your very own? Either commercial activity is disruptive enough to require segregation into Swap Shop or it's not.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Because, whether it's accurate in specific individual cases or not, there's a perception that work done for money doesn't have the same passion behind it as work done for personal satisfaction, and for some folk that does change how they see the final product.

Then that would seem to be a problem with that person's perception rather than something that needs to be corrected on the forums.

And often that perception is entirely justified - I have zero interest in looking at bare-minimum-effort airbrush-painted tabletop quality armies,...

That would be an argument for tagging airbrushed miniatures, rather than professional miniatures specifically.

There are plenty of amateur painters showing off tabletop quality paintjobs.


It sort of sounds like you're expecting some sort of quality filter on the Showcase.

...bringing a commercial tinge into posting in any other section of the forum is likely to get you mod attention,

That would really depend on the context. A business posting about themselves in a thread where such a post is relevant would be perfectly acceptable. It's only if it becomes spammy or off-topic that it's an issue.

It's perfectly acceptable for any poster to post pictures of their work in the Showcase and include a link back to their blog, or website, or Instagram, or whatever. It makes no difference whether or not they happen to be painting for money.



Besides which, unless they specifically state that a piece was painted for commission, how do you even tell which are commission pieces and which are personal work of the same painter?

 insaniak wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Because, whether it's accurate in specific individual cases or not, there's a perception that work done for money doesn't have the same passion behind it as work done for personal satisfaction, and for some folk that does change how they see the final product.

Then that would seem to be a problem with that person's perception rather than something that needs to be corrected on the forums.

The perception becomes fact when the amount of time put into a model is dictated by the wallet of the owner.
When studios offer Grade 1, Grade 2, Table Top, Showcase, etc. Their input and investment into that figure is on the clock. It is acutely quantifiable and therefore is different to someone who paints until they feel a project is done.

I'm not saying lesser or inferior, or wrong. I'm saying that it's not a lazy airbrush vs paint stick matter.

Consider that you could buy a few hours per model of a Golem studio's time. That outcome is not going to be as characterful as one of Tommie Soule's personal army pieces like his recent Ragnar, and it's certainly not because the painters lack skill. It's because the job ends at 5hrs or a minimum work spec.

 insaniak wrote:
Most of the professional studios already do that anyway.

Honestly, though, I'm really not seeing why it's a problem. A pretty miniature is no less pretty just because it was painted for cash. So if you're visiting the Showcase to see pretty miniatures, why sites if matter if it was painted by a professional?

I'd say about half or less of the folks who are putting up mostly commission work have "commission" in the title of their posts. Unless you're counting posts with the word "Studio" in it as being a tag. Now that I think about it "Studio" might be a better low-key tag to show the commercial nature of an artist's work.

The issue is not work by a professional. I like it as much as anyone. The issue is the annoying promotion.

If no one else has an issue with this then by all means ignore me, but I'd be curious what a poll -Posted in showcase where relevant viewers can see it- would reveal about.

Just for clarity. Is it OK with the Mods if I build and paint terrain and post it in the Showcase with links to where folks can buy it in the Swap Shop?

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

The perception becomes fact when the amount of time put into a model is dictated by the wallet of the owner.

That's a pretty big generalisation, right there.

There are several pieces I did as commissions that I count amongst my best work. If anything, the fact that I was doing the work for someone else encouraged me to put that little bit more into them, where I might have cut corners for personal work because it didnt matter as much if it wasn't perfect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:

I'd say about half or less of the folks who are putting up mostly commission work have "commission" in the title of their posts. Unless you're counting posts with the word "Studio" in it as being a tag.

Yes, I'm counting anything that makes it obvious without having to click on the thread that it is work done by a professional.

Just for clarity. Is it OK with the Mods if I build and paint terrain and post it in the Showcase with links to where folks can buy it in the Swap Shop?

So long as it doesnt become spammy, then yes, that would be totally acceptable.

 insaniak wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

The perception becomes fact when the amount of time put into a model is dictated by the wallet of the owner.

That's a pretty big generalisation, right there.

No, it's a conditional "when".
Perhaps i should have sad "if".

I'm not talking about individuals like you or Paradigm, I'm talking purely about the studios with set scales where a certain amount of money buys you a certain amount of time or result.

 insaniak wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

The perception becomes fact when the amount of time put into a model is dictated by the wallet of the owner.

There are several pieces I did as commissions...

Oh, so this discussion is pointless then.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh, so this discussion is pointless then.

This discussion has always been pointless. The Showcase forum is a place for anyone to share (showcase, if you will) miniatures and related work and that's it.


This subject gets brought up every couple of months and the end is always the same: the Showcase isn't going to change into what anyone else wants to be and the mods seem perfectly fine with how it is.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Because, whether it's accurate in specific individual cases or not, there's a perception that work done for money doesn't have the same passion behind it as work done for personal satisfaction, and for some folk that does change how they see the final product. And often that perception is entirely justified - I have zero interest in looking at bare-minimum-effort airbrush-painted tabletop quality armies, but the frequency that such armies appear in Showcase has been increasing pretty much in line with the increase in barely-disguised shillposts, to the point that forum has gone from being one I checked every time I visited Dakka to one I check every month or two, when I can be bothered trawling through to find the posts of the type I actually want to see.

While I agree with you that there may be a perception of a lack of passion in commission work, I think -- and this is totally my opinion -- that this is more a prejudice against commissioned work than anything else.

There are so many commission painters who do really, really beautiful work. Without naming names, there are a few regulars at Dakka that immediately come to mind (you know who you are -- I'm a big fan!), and many of their commission jobs are inspirational to hobbyists who don't paint models for a living. Some of the studios that "pump stuff out" also occasionally have commissions for really complex, showcase type stuff that is pretty cool. At the same time, if you paint models for a living, you are constrained by the fact that customers may want a model X dollars, which necessarily means that you must complete the job in Y hours (or not eat). I agree that looking at quick-and-dirty airbrush paintjobs isn't very exciting (partly because they all look very similar), but hey, it's still a finished mini, and it would be very strange to banish commissioned mediocrity while allowing uncommissioned mediocrity.

I also think that many, if not most, professional miniatures painter are passionate about painting miniatures -- or, at least, they love painting minis. I just can't imagine it any other way to make it a profession, as painting miniatures doesn't pay very well. At least, it doesn't seem to, judging by what people seem to be willing to pay versus what I know to be the time input, equipment, and consumables required, even by a highly efficient painter.

To the point of the original topic: it's pretty easy to identify the studio painters (by the original poster's name) and just ignore those threads

 insaniak wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

The perception becomes fact when the amount of time put into a model is dictated by the wallet of the owner.

That's a pretty big generalisation, right there.

There are several pieces I did as commissions that I count amongst my best work. If anything, the fact that I was doing the work for someone else encouraged me to put that little bit more into them, where I might have cut corners for personal work because it didnt matter as much if it wasn't perfect.

^ This! To be honest, all of my best work is now done on commission. When I do have time for personal work I usually just do really quick, simple stuff - 'Eavy Metal light, basically.

~Tim?

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

The perception becomes fact when the amount of time put into a model is dictated by the wallet of the owner.

That's a pretty big generalisation, right there.

No, it's a conditional "when".
Perhaps i should have sad "if".

I'm not talking about individuals like you or Paradigm, I'm talking purely about the studios with set scales where a certain amount of money buys you a certain amount of time or result.

I don't think it's going to be possible to filter the Showcase based on how much a poster cares about their work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

The perception becomes fact when the amount of time put into a model is dictated by the wallet of the owner.

There are several pieces I did as commissions...

Oh, so this discussion is pointless then.

Not at all. A concern was raised about the way the forum operates, and a discussion ensued as to why the forum operates that way. Hopefully, the OP feels somewhat more informed about the way things are.

Dakka members are always more than welcome to raise concerns or offer suggestions about how the forum is run. In many cases, as this one, they'll turn out to be things that have been discussed previously and which we have reasons for doing as we do. In some cases, they'll spawn a discussion that will result in something being changed, as happened with the 30K section.

Okay, the biggest problem with the flood of Studio Painters using the Showcase forum as what some call free advertising, is whether you want to admit it or not, it sets a tone for the entire forum section.

While there is no doubt reason to applaud the work done by commission painters, the influx of it I have noticed has warded off a lot of the "average painter guy" who just wants to show off what he's proud of because there's so much other stuff to measure up to. It gives a lot of folks a "why bother" attitude, feeling they're competing for attention off studios throwing up their works effectively saying "Look what I can do for you" and it has the effect of "I'm not a master painter/converter so my stuff doesn't belong in a showcase" on people.

Would a [commission] or [studio] tag help that? I have no idea, but that's just my observations on the situation.

I don't like it either.
They should definitely have a commission tag in the title and I'd rather it was a separate forum but I've said all this before.
CMA raises a good point of it setting the tone for the forum, that has been one of my key points in this discussion.
Things were alot different and the place felt like more of a learning community before the 'Showcase' and before commisson painters turned up en mass .
Here's some earlier threads....
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/674163.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612869.page

I agree, commission work should carry a tag.

As far as I can see, the people posting commission works either tag their post "commission" or have a sig for their studio name/logo. I haven't looked at all of the posts, but it's logical that if you are promoting your services, you would do that.

The P&M Showcase never was meant to be a learning place as such. The main P&M forum is where people are expected to post and answer questions about technique.

What about if we asked studios to put all their pics into a single thread, and update the title each time? That's what we do for News and Rumours material from companies.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

What about if we asked studios to put all their pics into a single thread, and update the title each time? That's what we do for News and Rumours material from companies.

How would that affect searches for a specific subject if they're constantly changing the subject of the thread to reflect the latest additions to the thread?

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:Okay, the biggest problem with the flood of Studio Painters

Alex Kolodotschko wrote:commission painters turned up en mass

A casual glance at the first couple pages of the Showcase forum will show you that the vast majority of threads are not made by commission painters.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

What about if we asked studios to put all their pics into a single thread, and update the title each time? That's what we do for News and Rumours material from companies.

How would that affect searches for a specific subject if they're constantly changing the subject of the thread to reflect the latest additions to the thread?

Yeah, I would see how that would make it tricky, especially for people who paint a wide variety of subjects (like myself). Luckily, there is already a place for threads like those: the P&M Blog subforum.

Aha! Hoisted by your own petard SPJ.
There are actually 20 on the first page alone, it's just hard to tell at a casual glance because they're not labeled!

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
There are actually 20 on the first page alone, it's just hard to tell at a casual glance because they're not labeled!

I said first couple of pages, which you clearly missed in your rush to prove me wrong.

I'm interested in what you consider a "commission" thread because after clicking on all of the threads on the first page, there certainly isn't twenty. Out of forty-eight threads on the first page, I found eight straight up commissions. Aside from those, there is one guy who did a Knight-Titan for a friend, about four done by a "studio" that has the models for sale on eBay (not commission work), and another thread of a guy with a "studio" that hasn't seemed to have done any commissions. A bunch of people have added watermarks to some photos, but that means nothing (I do it to my personal photos so discourage people from stealing them because I've had it happen).

 insaniak wrote:
Most of the professional studios already do that anyway.

Honestly, though, I'm really not seeing why it's a problem. A pretty miniature is no less pretty just because it was painted for cash. So if you're visiting the Showcase to see pretty miniatures, why sites if matter if it was painted by a professional?

Personally, for me, it's a problem as many of the posts tend to come across that their intention isn't to actually "showcase" the miniature--but rather to highlight their 'mastery' of stuff like OSL or zenithal via airbrushing to get commissions going. Often it's one or two pictures and a link to their social media presence then radio silence from them until their next commission spots open up.

I would rather, personally, those kinds of posts get put into Swap Shop. Maybe as an ongoing "Check Out My Commissions Portfolio" type of thread?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

What about if we asked studios to put all their pics into a single thread, and update the title each time? That's what we do for News and Rumours material from companies.

This ultimately runs into the same problem as having a separate section for 'pro' painters... it leaves us having to try to police which models are painted for commission and which are not.

If someone who runs a studio posts a mix of paid and personal work, there is generally no real way of determining which is which unless they specifically say so in their posts. You can't just assume that because something has a watermark, it must be a commission piece.


And, frankly, I have yet to see a cogent argument for doing anything different to the current system. The best that's been offered so far is the claim that people being paid to paint aren't using their own tears of creative passion as brushwater, which is a peculiar thing to judge them on given the wide range of ability and 'passion' displayed in amateur work... and that pro work is over-running the Showcase section and forcing amateurs to post their work elsewhere, which is demonstrably false.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Personally, for me, it's a problem as many of the posts tend to come across that their intention isn't to actually "showcase" the miniature--but rather to highlight their 'mastery' of stuff like OSL or zenithal via airbrushing to get commissions going. Often it's one or two pictures and a link to their social media presence then radio silence from them until their next commission spots open up.

Which is fine because the stated purpose of the Showcase forum is, well... showcasing miniatures. Asking for feedback is not a requirement for posting in the Showcase, it's simply a show and tell. I tend to always ask for feedback on both personal and commission projects because I enjoy hearing what other people have to say about my work, both good and bad, and I am always looking for ways to improve.

 insaniak wrote:
This ultimately runs into the same problem as having a separate section for 'pro' painters... it leaves us having to try to police which models are painted for commission and which are not.

Exactly. I don't see how that could be worth the moderation team's time and effort, especially considering that one of the main arguments against having "professionals" posting in the same forum as the "mere mortals" is all based on the ridiculous idea that someone, somewhere might have their feelings hurt by being exposed to people who can do something better than them.

If someone who runs a studio posts a mix of paid and personal work, there is generally no real way of determining which is which unless they specifically say so in their posts. You can't just assume that because something has a watermark, it must be a commission piece.

I watermark all of my photos with my "studio" name and sometimes I even add graphics (logos, titles, scale, etc.) just for fun, like I did with this TIE fighter. It wasn't a commission; it's sitting in my display cabinet looking nice. However, I've had photos taken from my personal blog and used without my permission (that weren't watermarked) so I've started adding stuff like this to discourage that behavior.

And, frankly, I have yet to see a cogent argument for doing anything different to the current system. The best that's been offered so far is the claim that people being paid to paint aren't using their own tears of creative passion as brushwater, which is a peculiar thing to judge them on given the wide range of ability and 'passion' displayed in amateur work... and that pro work is over-running the Showcase section and forcing amateurs to post their work elsewhere, which is demonstrably false.

Again, I couldn't agree more.

Some of the best work I've ever done was done for someone else in exchange for money. The TIE fighter I mentioned earlier was done solely for my enjoyment because I was bored one day and I saw the box sitting on my desk. I didn't work particularly hard on it, I just wanted to get it done to help get some creative juices flowing because I was feeling burnt out. On the other hand, this X-wing I did as a commission had a lot of blood, sweat, and tears poured into it and I was damn proud of it (and also very sad to see it go to its new home). I agonized over getting every little detail as accurate as I could to the filming miniature, making sure all of the weathering and panels were as close to the "real thing" as possible.

But I guess I have no passion for doing what I love if someone gives me money for it.