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whalemusic360 wrote:Very cool to see things getting to people who can use em. I do have a question tho, what do you mean you can only field one termi squad of each type?

SHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *wink*

(though I have heard that from others... might be more fluff based than rule based)


Sorry to hear about your dad BTW... have been spared that so far, though my wife's family has had more than their share of tribulations as of late. I'm also sorry to hear that your MW took some damage on the way back. I hope it's repairable. If it's serious, send him back and I'll fix him right up for you! (and do a better job of shipping him back)

Yeah, we're both coming along. He's got potential since he's only 10... I'm... getting better. I keep reading the p-logs of the really good painters here on Dakka... it's amazing what you can pick up from their little side comments. Of course their skill is their own, but occasionally a technique or strategy comes through that's new to me and makes me a better painter. Problem is that my eyesight is slowly disintegrating and I'm sure my hand-eye coord will not improve either as I creep towards 50... so I'd better go for it while I can still see and hit what I'm aiming at! (and no, I'm not talking about my love life... get your mind out of the gutter, this is a family show)

Gitsplitta wrote:
Problem is that my eyesight is slowly disintegrating and I'm sure my hand-eye coord will not improve either as I creep towards 50... so I'd better go for it while I can still see and hit what I'm aiming at! (and no, I'm not talking about my love life... get your mind out of the gutter, this is a family show)

lol, awesome

The Bolter arm fell off, the bolter broke off, the barrel/bayonet fell off and the large grass fell out. However, he is now totally repaired! The DE came through like a champ (and is amazing, the pics really don't do em justice).

I guess it may work for some of the less equipped chapters, but there are no such restrictions in the current dex's. Thank god, as I love playing deathwing with 20 terminators!

Boy, it must have taken a beating... glad you got it fixed up. Yeah, that DE really turned out nice... and it changed how we're going to do the rest of his marines a bit, so it was a very worthwhile exercise!

Really, what caused the change?

I thought he might like to try some different bits on there that are from the DA sprue.

Just the use of the eagle backpacks on all future marines... but they do make a difference!

I'm sure he would. Right now he's using the AoBR marines which are pretty all-inclusive... Don't think I actually have any "modern" marines for him to use the bits on (other than AoBR).

Finally got all of this beast of thread read!

Spent the last few days browsing through at wok (shh, my boss thinks im working.)

Upmost respect for you guiding your kids through 40k. Even if they are now better than me and im an adult apparently.

Nothing constructive to say, just thanks for making my job bearable

I'm very happy to hear how much your son likes the tac marines, and even happier to hear that those extra terminators are going to such a worthy cause. You're a great dad, and I'm sure your sons will appreciate what you're doing with them for the rest of their lives.

@CrazyMez: Welcome to the thread. My hat's off to you for braving the pages and pages of mostly chit-chat. You're welcome any time!

@Heffling: Oh my friend, you made his month! He's been after me to double check his work on the mold lines so he can finally get started. We also decided to replace all the normal back-packs with the double eagle commander's back packs (for the doom eagles). Man is that a good look for his chapter! So once again, thank you! I just finished the last of the prep-work today, so I suspect he'll be itchin' to get to work on them.


With a little luck, we may get a game in this weekend... will write up a report if we manage it!

Have an update for everyone. Some of you will note that I haven't been very productive painting-wise lately. Now that school has started again and fall is here, I spend most of my time helping the boys with their school work or getting our property ready for winter. The other issue is that Thing 1 has been monopolizing the painting station so I haven't really had any chance to paint for myself.

But, the upshot is that I have something to share. This is Thing 1's new tactical squad. Mostly done, with absolutely no help from me what-so-ever. I'm very pleased with the results. He was highly motivated throughout and really put an effort into doing a good job. I think with a little more effort they'll be ready for my "finishing touches" and we'll be able to get them based and varnished.



Secondly, we played 2 games this weekend... well, parts of 2 games. We did a 2000 pt Doom Eagle vs. Mantis Warriors game played long ways on a 4x8' table (his scenario). We were fighting across the wall of the derelict ork stompa facility and each had to get troops to an objective in the opponent's rear to win. Unfortunately it became apparent that whoever actually crossed the wall first would get annihilated, so after several turns of maneuvering we trashed that game, removed most of the wall & started over again.

Next game I reduced some of the terrain (including most of the wall) and added some secondary objectives. Kill points + points for holding secondary objectives, however... of you got to your prime objective in the opponent's rear and hold it for one turn... game over.

Doom Eagles:
HQ: Calgar
Elite: 10-man termie squad w/ HF & Assault Cannon
Troop: 10-man tac squad w/ rhino
Troop: 10-man tac squad w/ rhino
FA: 10-man assault squad
Hvy: Predator (autocannon/las cannons)
Hvy: Vindicator
Hvy: LR Redeemer

MW:
HQ: MoTF
HQ: Pedro Kantor
Elite: 6 Sternguard in pod (with Pedro)
Elite: Dread w/ CCw & LCs in pod
Elite: Dread w/ CCW & Assault Cannon in pod
Troop: 10-man tac squad
Troop: 10-man scout squad w/ Telion
FA: LS Storm w/ MM (outflanking)
FA: LS Storm w/ MM (outflanking)
FA: LS Storm w/ MM (outflanking)
Hvy: Dread w/ LCs & ML in pod (pod drops empty)
Hvy: Dread w/ LCs & ML in pod (pod drops empty)
Hvy: Dread w/ 2 x Auto Cannons


Suffice to say we both had ways of getting into each other's backfield... me with drop pod assault and Thing 1 with deep striking termies and assault squad.


Unfortunately there is no "battle report" as we didn't finish the game (he got discouraged and gave up), but I do have a photo that pretty much explains it all.



This is a photo of the end of turn 1... it could also have been a photo of his turn 4... the only thing that would have changed is that my army would be advancing heavily on the right and the land raider would have moved forward 12" He just never moves... he just sits there, hiding in his vehicles, trying not to get anything killed. In the mean time I'm marching my whole army forward, taking some casualties but on the whole doing far more damage than I'm receiving because my whole army is engaged in the battle... not just part of it. His tac squads never moved, never affected the battle. Rather than deep striking the termies or assault squad onto his game-winning objective, he lined them up on the table and foot-slogged them across the board. He's so timid and afraid to lose figures that he misses his opportunities to do something heroic to win the battle. His dense deployment did prevent me from drop poding onto my objective (mainly as I'd have gotten my rear-end shot off if I did... however my defensive deployment was a lot looser and thinner than his. If that big termie squad had materialized in my backfield... the game would have been over the very next turn.

Now I did give him some ideas before the game started... I suggested deep striking, or combat squadding the termies and assault squad and deep striking part and keeping the other half back for defense... so it's not like he didn't have possibilities, he just doesn't want to take any risks & as a result gets piece-mealed to death. So... I'm kind of at a loss... I try to give him suggestions but his play style is so timid that it doesn't do much good. One significant loss (it this case the drop pod assault shot up his assault squad badly) and he becomes incapable of aggressive action.

The funny part is that he's the one with the mechanized army. Everything was in a transport or could deep strike... yet he hardly moved anything. My foot-slogging dreads and infantry were running like the LSU track team across the battlefield & as a result were able to get position on his defensive line and combine their fire to eliminate targets. I also combat squadded both my troop units so the two squads of scouts could hold my secondary objectives leaving my tac squad free to move forward to join the battle.


Anyway... I'm just kind of stuck as to how to get him over this hump. He thinks that going to a new army (necrons) will solve his problems... but there's nothing wrong with his army, he's just not playing them to win. Any suggestions would be welcome.


On a side note... I like my list. It's fun, balanced and not quite as paper-thin as my all scout lists. I think a refinement would be to drop the third LS storm & use the points to beef up the sternguard a bit in both numbers and equipment.

That's all for now... off to get my lawn mower repaired, chain saw blades sharpened, laundry and dishes done & the grass mowed.... and those are just the morning tasks...

.... and this is my vacation day! This afternoon is cutting, splitting and sticking firewood until my back or knee gives out.

Very very cool there, congrats to Thing1, he has managed to put me to shame with his painting speed and quality.

The yellowish building in the second photo, I take it that that is scratch built? I would love to see a few close ups of it as I loved to make something similar (why I ever give my nercomunda industrial terrain away I'll never know).

Actually the entire complex is scratch-built by Senji Studios. You can find him on the web along with close-ups of all the buildings. Really nice guy too. I have a bunch more buildings that we did not use in this particular game. Really makes the games more fun and makes the games a lot different when you have significant amounts of sight-blocking terrain. Not every battle takes place on the Russian Steppes after all.

OH, and I forgot to mention, the can of yellow primer is supposed to be the sternguard drop pod... haven't gotten to building my pods yet so I'm still using proxies so I can practice with the army.

When you do start make DP this might offer you some inspiration to make slightly more ancient ones something a little different to the regular style maybe.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249658.page

One idea is that you play with the doom eagles next game and thing1 with the MW. Maybe if he can see his own army played by another person with other tactics it will open his mind for more posebileties?

pls congratulate thing1, my painting was nowhere near that at 10. I am currently stripping back the models and LAYERS of paint!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
one way to get round his tactics issue is to as some people have suggested swap, or copy his tactics, or give him easy wins whilst you try to shoot his tanks with lasguns

I believe you have a future GD winner on your hands! You are one lucky man to have talented sons.


_Tim?

Lennysmash wrote:When you do start make DP this might offer you some inspiration to make slightly more ancient ones something a little different to the regular style maybe.

Actually I do have some fairly extensive conversions in mind for the drop pods, including making them look as though from an earlier time. We'll see how they turn out.


I'll be sure to pass on everyone's good wishes, I'm certain he'll appreciate it.

Limbo wrote:That's great to hear Gitspitta, can't wait to see the new Tact Squad.
On a diffrent topic, have you seen this:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440352a&prodId=prod640020a

It contains short stories from around 10 diffrent chapters, including both Doom Eagles and the Mantis Warriors (now I finally see why people get irritated with C.S.Goto, what is a Mantis Devestator?). Doom Eagles story lets you get into the head of Veteran Seargent who's trying to rejoin the chapter after being imprisoned by Fabius Bile, while the Mantis Warriors story puts you in the mind of chapter master Khoisan Neotera, just after and just before the Badab War. I'm almost done with the book and I've enjoyed every story so far, so I can really recommend this one.

Yeh,I read them and they were really quite good. I found the mantis one slightly confusing but the rest are pretty cool. I have to say that the salamnder ones (in that and others) that follow Dak'ir (I think) are the best of the black library short stories!

Imp. Monkey

Hey Gits,

Maybe an approach you could take needn't be warhammer related, just find something epic you can inspire him to charge with.
EG maybe some DOW or DOW2 intro movies, viewable in SD and HD from gametrailers.com

Those two usually get me into the mood for some heroics.
Also theres a cartoon movie that came out ages ago called Titan A.E. which is rather inspiring for kids. (and adults alike) but that combined with some strategy 101 from his dad, might just do the trick

Titan AE for the win! I'm going to go watch it an work on a special project.

I don't it is that he is timid Gits, from all that you have told us about both of your boys they grasp the concepts of the game very well for their respective ages. I am almost certain that its a case of him overthinking. He is at a stage where he is aware of the consequences of failed assaults, missed shots etc. You see it in games like chess sometimes, people grasp the consequences of a certain move but not the long term consequences of a defensive stratagem, this lack of long term analysis leads them into inaction and thus defeat. Personally I think the best way to help him over come it is to swap forces as many others have suggested. You need to show him both what his force is capable of and also what his force can take. He needs to understand that some losses are acceptable and indeed sometimes necessary.

Crikey that was a rant but I hope it helps. I also hope it doesn't sound like complete rubbish to you guys, it just makes an kinda sense to me.

I want to thank everyone for their advice on my predicament. Lennysmash especially for giving me some insights that had eluded me to this point.

When we play and he gets frustrated, I often offer to switch sides with him (especially when he starts the "You have this unit which I can't defeat so I might as well just give up." talk... but he never takes me up on it, probably because he's afraid that I would be successful with the army he gave up on (a reasonable enough concern). What I might do though, is create a game specifically to work on this issue for him. We both pick our sides, set up and take turn one as normal, THEN WE SWITCH for turn two. I play his Doom Eagles and he my army (whatever it is). On turn 3 we switch back to our original armies and so forth. That way he's not quite so emotionally invested in his troops, because what's "his" keeps changing. I'll make up a victory point system so you earn victory points each round for whatever good things the army that you're controlling does... then we compare personal VP totals at the end of the game (in other words there wont be Doom Eagle or Mantis Warrior victory points, the VPs will belong to myself or my son... earned each turn with whatever army we were controlling at the time.

I think this will help him with his immediate issues, as well as starting to see the battle from his opponent's perspective (because every other turn his IS the opponent). I guess this won't really deal with the long term analysis that Len was talking about... but it's the best I can come up with at the moment.

Thoughts?


P.S. Thinking about this... I think this would be a really good exercise for experienced 40k players... It would be like a game of pool... you want to make your shots while leaving your opponent with no good follow up shots. In this game, you'd want to score all the victory points you could each round, while leaving the army in a weakened or exposed position on the following round... but not too weakened because you'll have to play them again the turn after that. This would be a real test to find out who's the best general... who does the most with what they have each round, irrespective of the list.

If he likes the shooting part, maybe he should give tau a try. Necrons are quite shooty too.

Necrons are his next army, he's already bought them... but I won't let him work on them until he finishes his marines (not too much left to do). Problem is that's a work-around & doesn't really get at the heart of his problem... it just lets him avoid his problem.

Havent we learned anything from the government? Ignore the problem and it will fix itself. Right?


Right?


Guys?

Hahaha, not in this country brother we have a capable and committed governme.... sorry I tried to keep a straight face just couldn't do it

Git think about games outside of warhammer too, chess and checkers are great ways to encourage youngsters to think a few moves in advance. Another possible thing you could do inside of your 40k games is to set timers, so you have to complete moves in a certain time limit based on the points your playing. So smaller games would give you less time to move your troops, the point of this excercise is that it forces your son to make the decision quickly without dwelling to much thinking "well if I do this, but then could also do that".

You know if you know any guys from the military or who have attended things like officer candidate school they may be able to give you some good insights into how to help your son become a more aggressive general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crikey just reread that, I'm making it seem like you're training your son to be John Conner. Sorry not trying to turn your son into a freedom fighting revolutionary against technology I promise.

Well... he IS going to be playing Necrons after all... John Conner isn't such a stretch! LOL

I'll keep that in mind Len, thanks. I know a number of former servicemen but most were sergeants or below. Unfortunately the one artillery captain I knew I lost track of several years ago.

New here, but this blog caught my eye.

As someone who has had problems with being aggressive and one who was worried about losing troops, I can understand the frustration.

I too felt like a complete change in armies was needed. Instead what was pointed out to me, was using the Army I had, but building it differently.

And even then I had the same problems. Until one day, I just did, I went all in on a unit and drop podded it in behind some Lemun Russ's, well the unit died, but not until both had been popped by melta.

Lesson learned, while I did lose a unit, I did far more damage to my opponent, which allowed for my team to win that game.

Then I started thinking about what I could do. Second game after some trials and different lists. I put a TH/SS Termie squad with a Chaplain and Captain in a land raider (Chap had normal armor, Captain had artificier). Got first turn, drove the land raider up 12', dropped the squad on a Blood Angel transport (the flier one in which the name escapes me) and was able to take it out and to tie down two squads for most of the game. I ended up losing the squad due to bad rolls. But the point had been made. Playing that style (with an army built around that) works. But in order for it to work, you need to know that casualties will happen, but it will hopefully result in the opponent changing their plans and maybe using units to clear out the assault that they would have used to take objectives.

I like the idea of switching it up. But another idea would use tactics to put him in a position to get him aggressive, maybe by leaving a flank open or something (yes you may want to win, but it is an excellent teaching aid)

Good points Jason, I'll give them some thought. I don't worry about winning when I'm playing my boys... though I do like to experiment with my own army to see how things work.

I had my own problems with my orks... not using them aggressively enough. One of the things I've done to help is by not giving my sluggy boyz any shooty weapons at all. This prevents me from wanting to hang them back firing the rocket launchers or big shootas (because they don't have them any more), so all I can do with them is charge them forward into assault. The end result is that my slugga's are much more effective now because I've "tricked" myself into using them the way they should be used.

A good general could give them the big gunz of course and still be successful... but I'm still fighting my natural tendency to be shooty so it works better for me if I just don't give them the option.

Given my shooty tendencies, I suppose it's not surprising that my son has the same approach. Unfortunately his defensive style when combined with a reluctance to accept any casualties makes for a very poor overall strategy, especially given the 5th Ed. game dynamic.

I'll give it some thought. Maybe we'll get another crack at it next weekend.

I had shooty tendencies too, coming from a military background, I took preds, dreds (long range), stuff like that.

Now I put everything in a rhino, drop pod or something I have to move. The only static part of my army is when I use scouts to camp, and even then I try using the Speeder option with a 5 man to assault an objective then camp (using the speeder as mobile support)

I do admit it took a few times, as I am stubborn, but once I saw it in action, it made sense.

It also helped being former Military and having others who play, who are also in or were in, so we could all talk in Military speak which helped me understand more.

Another option would be to have him watch a game between you and someone else possibly (maybe someone who plays aggressively), and explain it on a turn by turn basis as to what happened and such.