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He's being sarcastically troll-like. (i.e. "boo-hoo, get over it")

Well, simmilar adds fuel - if diluted it may be - to the fire upon your funeral pyre.

Empchild wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:

?

Tears of happiness ?!


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Seriously?

Thats like saying Fords Mustang is similiar to the Chevrolet Camaro?

They both have sleek lines and close styling..

I dont think you can get in trouble with the law for that.

I can go into any model shop in Canada or the US and find 3rd party add-ons, detail kits and so on for a huge number of models. Some even saying what EXACT models from specific manufacturers they are compatible with. How is what CH is doing different than what hundreds, if not thousands, of small companies have been doing for other model kits?

Answer: It's not. If the court rules differently, then a whole load of companies will be subject to new rules that kill their primary business. And then a lot of us will be ordering from overseas.

-John, who still needs to get a stowage kit for his 1/35 Staghound.

Jbuckmaster wrote:I can go into any model shop in Canada or the US and find 3rd party add-ons, detail kits and so on for a huge number of models. Some even saying what EXACT models from specific manufacturers they are compatible with. How is what CH is doing different than what hundreds, if not thousands, of small companies have been doing for other model kits?

Answer: It's not. If the court rules differently, then a whole load of companies will be subject to new rules that kill their primary business. And then a lot of us will be ordering from overseas.

-John, who still needs to get a stowage kit for his 1/35 Staghound.

Actually, it is different.

The companies that produce military model kits cannot copyright those specific models. They do not own the IP for the things they produce under license.
GW, however, has created the property and designs of 40k.

Chapterhouse wrote:Yuppers, its a completely new design and sculpt. You wont find its match in any of GWs products.

A great example of the way that CH distorts what it does. I made a point of stating that you can't infringe on the farseer models (their look, design) "Just because the CH Farseer is "sitting" doesn't distinguish it as a unique creation".

Chapterhouse responds by stating "it's a completely new design and sculpt". Yet you overlook some of the most crucial aspects here, and you do it willingly. For example, on your website, you sell the following:

"Conversion Kit for Farseer Jetbike Rider"

The design of the head, as well as the overall design of the rider clearly look like GW models. There's a 20 year documented history of the eldar, and the head alone looks like a complete ripoff of that history.

But here's the undeniable infringement: First, you don't have the right to sell farseer conversion kits, only GW does. Second, you blatantly describe them as "Farseer conversion kits", which is IP that you don't have a license for. Regardless of whether there is a "match" in GW products, you don't have any legal right to take their work and sell your own version of it.

If you want to sell a Seated Space Elf, then by all means, go for it. Maybe the sculpt itself is actionable, maybe not. That's for the judge to decide. But since the kit provides a model (as would be required to be a farseer on a jetbike), the immediate assumption is that that model is a farseer. It looks like one. It's certainly being sold as one.


By stating that there's "no match" ignores the fundamental underlying problem: You simply can not sell a farseer model of your own creation and call it a "Farseer".

That's the fundamental flaw and infringement that you've been engaging in for a long time now. And everytime it's been pointed out to you, you obfuscate, you deny, and you belittle the complaints placed before you. This time you obfuscated by making the case that GW doesn't make a model like it, there's no "match".

When there's a full model, and it's labeled as it is, and it looks like a GW farseer, there's only one conclusion: The product you sell here is sold as a "farseer". In other words, you didn't just sell a pair of legs to go with a pre-existing model. You sold a complete Farseer model. The fact that one is required to buy a GW jetbike doesn't reduce the infringement of the Farseer portion.


At an earlier point, you announced and sold "Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons Terminator Shoulder Pads". You've changed the wording a bit in light of the legal challenge. But you seem to miss the obvious point, which is that nobody can sell a product named that except for GW. And you've been missing that fundamental point for years.

When people have pointed this out over the last few years, you have consistently responded in a poor manner. It's that abrasiveness and refusal to acknowledge that you skirt the legal line that annoys many people on these boards. I remember one particularly funny incident when you claimed that the lack of GW suing you was a tacit acknowledgement of support or approval by them. That was your actual position when confronted with reasonable complaints directed at your company by hobbiests on this very forum. How's that position working out for you? Still believe it? Because you were pretty adamant at the time about it. We were all wrong, and the proof was that you hadn't been sued! LOL

It's one thing to do what you do, but to blatantly act like you don't engage in knockoff creation is ridiculous. That's what's created ill will for a LOT of gamers when it comes to your business practices. There's no respect shown for the underlying creators that you leach off of to stay in business.

Your attitude still doesn't change, even in the face of litigation. That you would spend your time reading our posts and responding to them shows that you are more concerned with looking "right" and defending yourself in the public sphere than with being smart and shutting up. Any lawyer will tell you- first things first "Shut up, stop talking, stop engaging, and don't give the opposing council any material that can be used against you". You either have poor legal staff, or you ignore their basic instructions.

I look forward to when your business is shut down from the pending legal action, or for the day that you decide to be CREATIVE and create your own ORIGINAL work.

There are two issues here:
1) what was produced
2) how it was marketed

The first issue concerns whether a company can produce accesory parts in a similar style to GW models.

The second is if you can label those parts as actual GW names.

Don't conflate the two.

Jbuckmaster wrote:I can go into any model shop in Canada or the US and find 3rd party add-ons, detail kits and so on for a huge number of models. Some even saying what EXACT models from specific manufacturers they are compatible with. How is what CH is doing different than what hundreds, if not thousands, of small companies have been doing for other model kits?

Answer: It's not. If the court rules differently, then a whole load of companies will be subject to new rules that kill their primary business. And then a lot of us will be ordering from overseas.

-John, who still needs to get a stowage kit for his 1/35 Staghound.

Very easy. You can not sell "Pre Heresy Thousand Sons Terminator Shoulder Pads", for example. You can sell shoudler pads with scarabs on them. But you can't market them or name them in a way that infringes on the company that actually has the legal right to make/sell/distribute such a product.

I didn't say military models. I said models. You can find kits for mecha models, car models, figure models, and a few hundred other items. I can buy better handles for the access panels on a Gundam, or new joints for the models. Neither of which are produced by Bandai, owners of Gundam, producers of the anime, and makers of the models themselves.

In fact, Bandai's response was to create a new company to create some of these add-ons so as to get more customers buying from them instead of others. They didn't stop others, they just outdid the others. If GW wants to stop Chapterhouse, they can do the same.

-John

Jbuckmaster wrote:I didn't say military models. I said models. You can find kits for mecha models, car models, figure models, and a few hundred other items. I can buy better handles for the access panels on a Gundam, or new joints for the models. Neither of which are produced by Bandai, owners of Gundam, producers of the anime, and makers of the models themselves.

In fact, Bandai's response was to create a new company to create some of these add-ons so as to get more customers buying from them instead of others. They didn't stop others, they just outdid the others. If GW wants to stop Chapterhouse, they can do the same.

-John

Or, they can take a simpler approach, which is to legally enforce their rights in court. Something that plenty of companies choose to do every year. Why should GW be forced to "compete" with another company over the very product that it owns? That's absurd.

Kanluwen wrote:

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

One phrase.
"Quantity does not equal quality."

cheers for that one mate!.....my comment was meant to show how in the long run, when the "quality" companys like maxmini and micro art start losing profits, it becomes harder for them to produce quality stuff. im not against third party companies, but when you get ONE that comes to market, with a "cheaper" and inferior product. it opens the flood gates for everyone and their mother to start making stuff.

that being said and at the risk of being attacked. i too am not a huge fan of CH for two reasons, (in MY opinion) the quality in the initial sculpt is OK at best, along with their marketing stratagies not being sound. you just dont advertise "designed to fit GW SM" knowing full well how protective GW is of their IP

Jbuckmaster wrote:I didn't say military models. I said models. You can find kits for mecha models, car models, figure models, and a few hundred other items. I can buy better handles for the access panels on a Gundam, or new joints for the models. Neither of which are produced by Bandai, owners of Gundam, producers of the anime, and makers of the models themselves.

In fact, Bandai's response was to create a new company to create some of these add-ons so as to get more customers buying from them instead of others. They didn't stop others, they just outdid the others. If GW wants to stop Chapterhouse, they can do the same.

-John

There's a difference in venue for this case.
A great many of the third party companies in the case you're talking about are based in China, Taiwan, or Hong Kong where IP laws are basically treated as a "So what?". Going after them is basically impossible

Chapterhouse, however, is not based in China, Taiwan or Hong Kong.

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Indeed. Just because a ton of new options would exist doesn't mean you have to buy them! We would all speak with our wallets as to which companies are producing good quality stuff, and to us as consumers anyways, it would only mean more options. There would indeed be a ton of crap too, but there already is to be honest.

Of course it means you don't have to buy them. But at the same time: Having more options isn't always the right way to go

GW can stand the competition, in general, they make the best plastic kits around, and they keep getting better for the most part. A little healthy competition will get a good company to excel and innovate, which again trickles down to us. Just my 2 cents anyhoo.

Once again:
Chapterhouse isn't competition. They don't produce their own game system that is competing against GW's. They just make money off someone else's game system by filling in gaps that currently exist in the range.

To clarify further:
Privateer Press=Competition.
Chapterhouse != Competition.

'More options isn't always the way' to go is really a dodge to the point though man. The original question that brought was how is it bad that 3rd party ramora companies exist. And the truth to my eyes as has been said a few times here and there, is that it isn't a bad thing at all. It costs us nothing for them to simply exist, and it adds options for us. To the consumer, it is a win. To GW, maybe not, but I'm talking consumers here. Just to be clear again, corporately speaking, if CH have indeed left themselves legally vulnerable and I was GW, I would sue too. Competition is all well and good, but truly illegal business practices don't need to be encouraged by GW either obviously lol.

To the 2nd point, CH is indeed competition, at least to me. Here is why - as you probably know I am just a hobbyist, I don't play the games. I read fluff, be it BL, codex's, or WD, and I of course buy mini's. In terms of products bought, essentially I would look like both a gamer and hobbyist to them if they only looked at my purchases. I love the fluff despite my occasional complaint, it really is something that is nostalgic and escapist entertainment for me.

But, when it comes to my interests, and where they can get the most $ for me is putting out great hobbying products, both mini's and supplies/tools/paints. This is my most likely impulse buy. This is my most likely big planned project. Now as my tastes and knowledge have grown, I am straying more and more from GW. It used to be everything I owned was gw, from brushes to paints to inks to sprays to flock etc. Mini's - 100% gw.

Now though, my paints are Vallejo (with GW foundations though), my brushes are windsor newton, kolinski or reaper, my sculpting tools are color shapers and generic metal sets, my primer is an airbrush etc etc etc. So there, they lost out on my cash. Half due to pricing, half due to quality in a case by case basis.

That left the mini's. The badmoon ork warboss conversion in a 2008 WD and the SH set got me back into painting after a 5 year hiatus. But this time I was armed with Google, Dakka and a better idea of how to research. I learned to sculpt, I learned to convert properly (at least I think so lol), which made me less reliant on just kitbashing, and more open to seeing the potential of individual parts instead of whole kits. Now, although I still envision GW characters and armies when I think about my next projects, they tend to be more my own take, or heavy conversion projects. Which again, makes me look for bits, any bits, that will satisfy me and prevent me from having to sculpt the whole thing. In the case of my Space Hulk projects, this let to hybrids made out of parts from Cadians, Catachans, Wargames greatcoats, Fantasy ghouls, Maow necromancer, Personal sculpts, commisioned scults, armorcast bits, fenris games bases, maxmini shells etc etc etc.

So you see, to someone like me, CH is competition for GW, because I don't care about tournaments, or counts as, or anything like that. As a hobbyist, I am looking for bits that will fill the need I have, and although I never ordered from them, they were an option were I working on regular PA marines. They are all options for me. GW will always get my money for the base units to start from, but they lost a hell of a lot to '3rd party' companies for not offering more of what I needed, or not making it convenient with the death of the bits service. If they offer their product at a fair price, make it easy and convenient for me to purchase, and offer the range of things I needed, I wouldnt bat an eye to give them every cent. Anything that inspires/scares them in that direction is ok with me.

At the end of the day, I think GW has the experience, talent and resources to make the best version of any 40k item themselves. If the competition gets them to work more efficiently, market better, and listen to the consumer's wallets instead of trying to force them into 1 option, then we all win. GW is at a risky point in their history, mature game systems, saturation of their army line... The should be focused on innovating, coming up with fresh IP and engaging their customers right now, not squashing Garage ops like CH.

Just my opinion of course, hopefully though it makes an understandable case for CH being competition. The ride the coattails of GW's ip and don't make their own lines, sure, but they are a place I can buy bits, in that sense, they are indeed competition, esp if they put out what I need/want for my project, and GW doesn't.

LittleLeadMen wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:Yuppers, its a completely new design and sculpt. You wont find its match in any of GWs products.

A great example of the way that CH distorts what it does. I made a point of stating that you can't infringe on the farseer models (their look, design) "Just because the CH Farseer is "sitting" doesn't distinguish it as a unique creation".

Chapterhouse responds by stating "it's a completely new design and sculpt". Yet you overlook some of the most crucial aspects here, and you do it willingly. For example, on your website, you sell the following:

"Conversion Kit for Farseer Jetbike Rider"

The design of the head, as well as the overall design of the rider clearly look like GW models. There's a 20 year documented history of the eldar, and the head alone looks like a complete ripoff of that history.

But here's the undeniable infringement: First, you don't have the right to sell farseer conversion kits, only GW does. Second, you blatantly describe them as "Farseer conversion kits", which is IP that you don't have a license for. Regardless of whether there is a "match" in GW products, you don't have any legal right to take their work and sell your own version of it.

If you want to sell a Seated Space Elf, then by all means, go for it. Maybe the sculpt itself is actionable, maybe not. That's for the judge to decide. But since the kit provides a model (as would be required to be a farseer on a jetbike), the immediate assumption is that that model is a farseer. It looks like one. It's certainly being sold as one.


By stating that there's "no match" ignores the fundamental underlying problem: You simply can not sell a farseer model of your own creation and call it a "Farseer".

That's the fundamental flaw and infringement that you've been engaging in for a long time now. And everytime it's been pointed out to you, you obfuscate, you deny, and you belittle the complaints placed before you. This time you obfuscated by making the case that GW doesn't make a model like it, there's no "match".

When there's a full model, and it's labeled as it is, and it looks like a GW farseer, there's only one conclusion: The product you sell here is sold as a "farseer". In other words, you didn't just sell a pair of legs to go with a pre-existing model. You sold a complete Farseer model. The fact that one is required to buy a GW jetbike doesn't reduce the infringement of the Farseer portion.


At an earlier point, you announced and sold "Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons Terminator Shoulder Pads". You've changed the wording a bit in light of the legal challenge. But you seem to miss the obvious point, which is that nobody can sell a product named that except for GW. And you've been missing that fundamental point for years.

When people have pointed this out over the last few years, you have consistently responded in a poor manner. It's that abrasiveness and refusal to acknowledge that you skirt the legal line that annoys many people on these boards. I remember one particularly funny incident when you claimed that the lack of GW suing you was a tacit acknowledgement of support or approval by them. That was your actual position when confronted with reasonable complaints directed at your company by hobbiests on this very forum. How's that position working out for you? Still believe it? Because you were pretty adamant at the time about it. We were all wrong, and the proof was that you hadn't been sued! LOL

It's one thing to do what you do, but to blatantly act like you don't engage in knockoff creation is ridiculous. That's what's created ill will for a LOT of gamers when it comes to your business practices. There's no respect shown for the underlying creators that you leach off of to stay in business.

Your attitude still doesn't change, even in the face of litigation. That you would spend your time reading our posts and responding to them shows that you are more concerned with looking "right" and defending yourself in the public sphere than with being smart and shutting up. Any lawyer will tell you- first things first "Shut up, stop talking, stop engaging, and don't give the opposing council any material that can be used against you". You either have poor legal staff, or you ignore their basic instructions.

I look forward to when your business is shut down from the pending legal action, or for the day that you decide to be CREATIVE and create your own ORIGINAL work.

Opinions dont win court and legal battles, established laws and cases do.

You sir are willingly blinding yourself to the legal fact that one company is allowed by law to use another company's trademark to fittingly describe its products. aka "Nominal Use"

This pertains directly to how we name our products. It also pertains directly to our logo, "Specializing in custom sculpts and bits for warhammer 40,000 and fantasy". Take a second off your pedestal and think about it, a car mechanic can legally say in his logo on the front of his store front "Abe's Auto Service - Specializing in Lexus and Toyota repairs". See the comparison?

Also by law copyright is applied to the whole of a work, not to component parts or styling.

You own a model company but do not seem well-versed on the whole subject of Intellectual Property law. Have you spent the money to hire an attorney and have him answer your questions?

Unfortunately your attitude and silly hatred towards a total stranger keeps your eyes from being opened.

Personally I think GW is absolutely right to defend its IP, and, as I've said before, it disgusts me that there are people on this forum who have no problem with buying knockoffs of Forgeworld stuff or, to take another example, would pirate the Ultramarines Movie.

Having said that, I see nothing wrong with offering unique optional items for existing models as long as it doesn't essentially copy a GW property. Note that I say property, not model...

So if Chapterhouse want to make, say, shoulderpads that fit Space Marines and that bear non-GW iconography, I think that *should* be allowed. I also don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to SAY that they fit Space Marines.

If, on the other hand, they're simply doing an alternative version of Dark Angels shoulder pads, that's where to my mind it starts to get a little more dubious.

Suppose I started selling tape measures "perfect for use with Warhammer 40,000", I find it hard to believe that anyone would consider that anything more than hyperbole. If I started making blast templates, that would be somewhat iffy.

I think Chapterhouse may have pushed their luck a little, but if GW haven't already asked them to back off, legal action does seem a little heavy-handed.

I do think the aftermarket car parts analogy was a good one - sell a Mustang body kit - fine, sell one with the outline of a galloping horse - not fine.

I'm not a lawyer, but I was once a cop. Don't know so much about US law, but a lot of British law makes reference to what a "reasonable person" might think. Obviously, reason pretty much followed common sense in departing this world, but that's the "standard" I'd like to see applied...


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BTW, when the hell did the plural of "person" become persons, not people?

LittleLeadMen wrote:
Or, they can take a simpler approach, which is to legally enforce their rights in court. Something that plenty of companies choose to do every year. Why should GW be forced to "compete" with another company over the very product that it owns? That's absurd.

Except GW is overreaching beyond its legal rights. CH has every right to use GW's TM names to describe its own product, there is a legally recognized right for other companies to use a TM of another company to describe their own product when it is necessary to the character and identity of the product.

The enforceability of other aspects of GW's claim hinge on what the court believes is the protected artwork. GW would like to say its both at the component level and the complete model design. The insistence on the protected work being the complete model, prohibits people from legally using the model as intended as such a standard means any variation beyond the instructions is an unauthorized derivative work. The court will recognize this contrary aspect to GWs claim. This will limit GW to protecting complete models from CH complete models; CH has few as most CH models are conversion kits. More reasonably GW insists that each individual component is the protected artwork, this will heavily insist on directly copied iconography more than anything else, since similar geometry isn't enough. GW will have to go through every CH part and show how it either copies a specific piece of artwork GW's created or that what CH has made is an overly significant proportion of model and is an identifying feature of a space marine or other model.

Next is the part about dilution of brand, where GW insists that confusion between their product and CH's is enough to diminish the value of their brand. This is about trying to blur the ownership of companies and a false representation of involvement of GW with CH. While the name Chapter House is a reference to an aspect of GW's trademarked IP, it also has other far broader uses elsewhere. Its not enough to show product confusion, its also a matter whether consumers reasonably distinguish the two entities. This will hinge on similarities in presentation of the companies identifying features.

A lot of people seem insistent on the fact that just because no one else has taken legal action in the way GW is here doesn't mean those other companies don't have a right to. While aspects of what CH does may seem unfair to some there is more to say they have a right to do what they do than their is for GW to extend its claims as far as it is trying to do. A lack of companies pursuing legal actions does however show a general belief in either the worthlessness of such action or belief in the likeliness of failure. Whether justified in part or not, what GW's doing is bullying and while that doesn't speak to how right they might be it only further adds to their reputation for trying to squeeze its customer base in a way few companies do. GW refuses to compete and benefits from a nearly monopolistic market place, which it has created through a variety of means.

Chapterhouse wrote:

Opinions dont win court and legal battles, established laws and cases do.

You sir are willingly blinding yourself to the legal fact that one company is allowed by law to use another company's trademark to fittingly describe its products. aka "Nominal Use"

This pertains directly to how we name our products. It also pertains directly to our logo, "Specializing in custom sculpts and bits for warhammer 40,000 and fantasy". Take a second off your pedestal and think about it, a car mechanic can legally say in his logo on the front of his store front "Abe's Auto Service - Specializing in Lexus and Toyota repairs". See the comparison?

Also by law copyright is applied to the whole of a work, not to component parts or styling.

You own a model company but do not seem well-versed on the whole subject of Intellectual Property law. Have you spent the money to hire an attorney and have him answer your questions?

Unfortunately your attitude and silly hatred towards a total stranger keeps your eyes from being opened.

Classic Chapterhouse response!
1. Condescending.
2. Ignores and/or refuses to address the actual specifics of the criticism that's been directed toward you.
3. Makes an analogy that has no direct connection to the specific case or infringement complaint on hand.
4. Makes assumptions about what I do or do not know about Intellectual property law, solely on the basis that I criticised you.
5. Acts holier than thou by proclaiming I need to have "my eyes opened", as if you carry some sort of amazing truth to enlighten us all with.
6. Also assumes that you're being maligned randomly, that I have "hatred" towards you.


Again, I'm amazed that you are still communicating with anyone on a toy soldier forum. I'd find it very hard to believe that your lawyer(s) haven't advised you to simply be quiet and address the issue in court, rather than on Dakka Dakka.

You sell a "Farseer conversion for Jetbike", and it doesn't include a jetbike. It includes some mechanical parts, obviously for the bike itself. That's a conversion. There's also an entire figure, sculpted in the style of a GW Farseer, with a head that looks like a GW farseer. It's not a stretch to assume that this figure is being represented and being sold as a "Farseer". it looks like a GW Farseer, and is the only part of the "conversion kit" that would constitute a "Farseer" as part of a "Farseer Conversion kit".

That's the entire issue. You don't have the right to release a Farseer figure of your own, let alone call it a "Farseer" in your marketing and sales. It is not fair use.

Your analogy to Abe's Auto Service is so flawed in many respects. 1st, "Abe", your strawman, doesn't make his own Lexus parts and claim they are Lexus parts. He simply fixes cars. You, on the other hand, have sold parts and used the specific language and IP of another company while doing so. You've sold products that you have no right to create and sell. (as described). Sell a Seated Space Elf. Don't sell a "Farseer Conversion kit", which immediately implies that the figure in question is a "Farseer", a specific product that you have no legal rights to.

Your business is a classic parasite, by very definition, as it is wholly dependent upon taking IP from another creative company to function. When presented with this, you are defensive and irrational. Instead of addressing the specifics of the criticism, you obfuscate and distort. You stated that I needed to get off of my pedestal, open my eyes, and that I hated you. It's a bizarre way to respond to valid criticisms of your business and its practices.

By the way, you still haven't responded to my previous question. In the past, you publicly stated on these boards that the lack of GW legal action was a sign of tacit approval from the company for the work you do. You made a big point of it. Your detractors were all ignorant and wrong, and the proof was that your business existed and GW "allowed" you to continue unabated.

Can you at least recognize how ridiculous that position came across? And have you changed your mind/position in light of the current legal action taken against Chapterhouse? Given your adamant position previously, should we all now assume that you are, in fact, illegally using the IP, as GW has filed a suit against your company?

I don't think Chapterhouse is, in any way, being 'arrogant' in their defense in the past. Even I got tired at all the armchair-lawyers derailing Chapterhouse threads on Dakka to discuss what is or isn't legal.

I'm still disturbed at how many "told-you-so" people actually support GW in this matter; it's sickening really. If Chapterhouse wins, we go on normally and everyone (even GW) wins. If GW wins, everyone (except GW) loses. GW seems to be taking a "only I can profit" stance on this matter.

I really hope this is settled out of court and with minimal damage to either side.

Did you not read Chapterhouse's last response to my criticism? How is that not arrogant, even by fairly generous standards?

If not that, what about his ridiculous previous positions about GW approval, as seen by lack of litigation?

I don't see how you can be disturbed by a company enforcing its legal rights to its property- products, characters, trademarks, etc that they created. How does "everyone lose" if GW wins?

And, if this IP is the legal property of the creators, GW, then why shouldn't they be the only ones to profit from it? I'm at a loss to understand your position on this. Please explain why anyone else other than the creator of a unique product should be allowed to profit from that unique product?

Absolutionis wrote:I don't think Chapterhouse is, in any way, being 'arrogant' in their defense in the past. Even I got tired at all the armchair-lawyers derailing Chapterhouse threads on Dakka to discuss what is or isn't legal.

I'm still disturbed at how many "told-you-so" people actually support GW in this matter; it's sickening really. If Chapterhouse wins, we go on normally and everyone (even GW) wins. If GW wins, everyone (except GW) loses. GW seems to be taking a "only I can profit" stance on this matter.

I really hope this is settled out of court and with minimal damage to either side.

Believe it or not, but not everyone buys from Chapterhouse! How would I lose out? I ask you that simple question. I don't buy from them, I do however, buy kits from GW, the creators of 40k.

No offense LLM, but if you were expecting a polite response from CH after the tone of your own postings towards them, I think you are drastically underestimating the aggressiveness and personal anger the way your posts read to strangers.

Honestly your points would be a lot easier to absorb if you didn't start off with name-calling and anger... Just sayin...

LittleLeadMen wrote:Did you not read Chapterhouse's last response to my criticism? How is that not arrogant, even by fairly generous standards?

If not that, what about his ridiculous previous positions about GW approval, as seen by lack of litigation?

I don't see how you can be disturbed by a company enforcing its legal rights to its property- products, characters, trademarks, etc that they created. How does "everyone lose" if GW wins?

And, if this IP is the legal property of the creators, GW, then why shouldn't they be the only ones to profit from it? I'm at a loss to understand your position on this. Please explain why anyone else other than the creator of a unique product should be allowed to profit from that unique product?

Wow... I mean, just wow... This is coming from a guy who hopes myself and my company pretty much burn in legal hell and get totally destroyed. Who peed in your cornflakes this morning?

I guess your definition of arrogance is to point out the legal facts in the matter, stand behind what I have always said (that what we are doing is legal, and has precedent). I get it, you dont like anyone who makes money off of someone elses IP. Well gak, I guess Max-mini, Scibor, Secret Weapons and a few other companies are not up to your standards either. The only difference between CHS and them is CHS believes we can legally use trademarks in our descriptions. We all do the same business for the hobby.

Call me silly, but considering all the arm-chair lawyering that is occuring, not to mention pronouncements of guilt before innocence, I am being pretty level headed.

Yourself on the other hand seems to ignore what many members who have legal background are telling you.

P.s Calgar your question has been answer on every page of this thread at least once... Not being pissy, just saying it's there if you want to look. Also not saying you will agree with the response but it is something to think about if you hadn't been looking at things that way before.

@LittleLeadMen:

Call it a fallacy in argument, but I'm questioning your purpose in all this. You rather adamantly defend GW and abrasively attack Chapterhouse, but why?

I notice, from your blog, that you enjoy buying from PigIronMiniatures in order to add onto GW bits. I, on the other hand, enjoy buying from both PigIronMiniatures and Chapterhouse to add onto GW bits. For that reason, I don't want Chapterhouse to go down.

Aside from the smugness associated with trying to win an argument on the internet, you have nothing to gain from GW's win on this case. The hobbyist community, however, has everything to lose. That is my position.

Additionally, I'm not disagreeing with GW defending its IP. I'm disagreeing with people unversed in law outright attacking Chapterhouse rather than seeking a solution. If Chapterhouse did exactly what PigIronMiniatures does and fabricated ignorable fluff to accessorize their miniatures, they'd be fine, and you'd be fine.

However, rather than support a compromise in the dispute, you take the side of insulting Chapterhouse. Your argument isn't supporting GW anymore. Your argument is simply attacking Chapterhouse.

I wish this damn thread gets locked before something stupid happens. The drama was amusing at first, but until something newsworthy happens, nothing good will come of this thread.

One last point before I go back to "Buffy the Vamp Slayer" (where did this LOGO channel come from?!).

The attorneys I have talked with clued me in not to say anything that could incriminate myself. I do not think repeating pretty much what I have always said and defending myself with the US IP laws and examples from cases is much damage.

All I can attempt to do (with the help of the lawyers on this board) is try to shine some light on the issues in this case. Granted some members dont give a flip about the case law.

Absolutionis wrote:@LittleLeadMen:

Call it a fallacy in argument, but I'm questioning your purpose in all this. You rather adamantly defend GW and abrasively attack Chapterhouse, but why?

I notice, from your blog, that you enjoy buying from PigIronMiniatures in order to add onto GW bits. I, on the other hand, enjoy buying from both PigIronMiniatures and Chapterhouse to add onto GW bits. For that reason, I don't want Chapterhouse to go down.

Aside from the smugness associated with trying to win an argument on the internet, you have nothing to gain from GW's win on this case. The hobbyist community, however, has everything to lose. That is my position.

Additionally, I'm not disagreeing with GW defending its IP. I'm disagreeing with people unversed in law outright attacking Chapterhouse rather than seeking a solution. If Chapterhouse did exactly what PigIronMiniatures does and fabricated ignorable fluff to accessorize their miniatures, they'd be fine, and you'd be fine.

However, rather than support a compromise in the dispute, you take the side of insulting Chapterhouse. Your argument isn't supporting GW anymore. Your argument is simply attacking Chapterhouse.

I wish this damn thread gets locked before something stupid happens. The drama was amusing at first, but until something newsworthy happens, nothing good will come of this thread.

+1

aka_mythos wrote: GW refuses to compete and benefits from a nearly monopolistic market place, which it has created through a variety of means.

This is is simply demonstrably untrue. There are hundreds of toy soldier makers out there. Several are very large and have extensive market share. That you and your friends play 40k or WHFB a lot is not an indication, nor proof, that GW is a monopoly. I'm so tired of reading this from posters on Dakka Dakka, as it's clearly false.

You don't like GW, ok, we all get it. But they re not a monopoly.

I hope it does not get locked. One person who wants to cause drama and harm should not lock down, what until just recently, has been a pretty informative and hobby-important thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am happy to bow out for now, I think its up to a moderator to control some of the ill-tempers around here.

LittleLeadMen, I additionally notice, from your blog, that you buy from Irondog Studios.
Blog: http://www.littleleadmen.com/2009/11/skorcha-wagon/
Link: http://www.irondogstudios.com/

LittleLeadMen wrote:Conversion wise, it is an Imperial Guard Hellhound, with front plates from a Stompa, a Skorcha from a Killer Kan, some old Bad Moons icons, plastic card, and resin track links from Iron Dog Studios.

They post the standard "we aren't GW" disclaimer on the bottom. They use copyrighted terms such as Daemonhunters, Burna Boyz, and they even sell an item called a "Grotzooka".

Quit your hypocrisy just because you dislike Chapterhouse's demeanor. You bought items from a company just like Chapterhouse. Just because you don't buy doesn't mean others don't buy.

EDIT: Additionally, Irondog Studios has this to say regarding their rationale:

Irondog Studios wrote:Necessity is the mother of invention. Sometimes when you're building a model, you need a part that the manufacturer just doesn't produce. These are a few of the conversion kits I have developed to fill those production gaps. Now I'm making them available to the gaming public, to help save you guys some time.

What argument do you have against Chapterhouse again?

Thanks for the reply MajorTom, I didn't realize that.

BTW, good luck Chapterhouse, I might not agree with your opinion on this, but everyone deserves some good wishes.

Ya but now we are cycling through the same things over and over, with new people in the roles of 'irate hater of CH' and 'Champion of consumer options', intermixed with the legal experts who have said their piece at this point... At the very least, the thread needs a sticky with the cliffnotes lol.