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Well, let's also go with dilution of IP?

And "why it might not be good" is a fancy way of saying "It might be bad" now?

In all seriousness:
I see no reason why we need to have hundreds of companies all producing thirdrate bits for 40k/WHFB/LOTR.

I'd far rather they get their asses in gear, buckle down and make their own IPs.

Kanluwen wrote:

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

One phrase.
"Quantity does not equal quality."

That being said...if CH wins the case and 5 million companies spring up...would you buy bits from the companies that make poor items...or would you buy bits from the companies that made high quality items?

ironicsilence wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

One phrase.
"Quantity does not equal quality."

that being said...if CH wins the case and 5 million companies spring up...would you buy bits from the companies that make poor items...or would you buy bits from the companies that made high quality items?

You do realize that very few of the companies producing bits actually produce anything that can be called "high quality" to begin with, yes?

Kanluwen wrote:Well, let's also go with dilution of IP?

And "why it might not be good" is a fancy way of saying "It might be bad" now?

In all seriousness:
I see no reason why we need to have hundreds of companies all producing thirdrate bits for 40k/WHFB/LOTR.

I'd far rather they get their asses in gear, buckle down and make their own IPs.

No, the absence of good isn't necessarily bad. If 100 companies spring up and all make awful bits that add nothing to the hobby, that's not good. But in what way is it actively bad?

Kanluwen wrote:

ironicsilence wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

One phrase.
"Quantity does not equal quality."

that being said...if CH wins the case and 5 million companies spring up...would you buy bits from the companies that make poor items...or would you buy bits from the companies that made high quality items?

You do realize that very few of the companies producing bits actually produce anything that can be called "high quality" to begin with, yes?

I do, and I'm sure the few companies that do make high quality bits sell more product then the companies that make lower quality items, right?

Polonius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Well, let's also go with dilution of IP?

And "why it might not be good" is a fancy way of saying "It might be bad" now?

In all seriousness:
I see no reason why we need to have hundreds of companies all producing thirdrate bits for 40k/WHFB/LOTR.

I'd far rather they get their asses in gear, buckle down and make their own IPs.

No, the absence of good isn't necessarily bad. If 100 companies spring up and all make awful bits that add nothing to the hobby, that's not good. But in what way is it actively bad?

In what way is that good?

I'm failing to see the obscure point you're making here, Polonius.

Polonius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

One phrase.
"Quantity does not equal quality."

That explains why it might not be good. Not why it might be bad.

Indeed. Just because a ton of new options would exist doesn't mean you have to buy them! We would all speak with our wallets as to which companies are producing good quality stuff, and to us as consumers anyways, it would only mean more options. There would indeed be a ton of crap too, but there already is to be honest.

GW can stand the competition, in general, they make the best plastic kits around, and they keep getting better for the most part. A little healthy competition will get a good company to excel and innovate, which again trickles down to us. Just my 2 cents anyhoo.

MajorTom11 wrote:Indeed. Just because a ton of new options would exist doesn't mean you have to buy them! We would all speak with our wallets as to which companies are producing good quality stuff, and to us as consumers anyways, it would only mean more options. There would indeed be a ton of crap too, but there already is to be honest.

Of course it means you don't have to buy them. But at the same time: Having more options isn't always the right way to go

GW can stand the competition, in general, they make the best plastic kits around, and they keep getting better for the most part. A little healthy competition will get a good company to excel and innovate, which again trickles down to us. Just my 2 cents anyhoo.

Once again:
Chapterhouse isn't competition. They don't produce their own game system that is competing against GW's. They just make money off someone else's game system by filling in gaps that currently exist in the range.

To clarify further:
Privateer Press=Competition.
Chapterhouse != Competition.

I don't think it's an obscure point to say that while the hobby might not benefit from Chapterhouse winning, it certainly won't suffer.

Ok, so chapterhouse wins. Literally 100 different garage shops start producing bits. Literally none of them are of any use or value to any member of the hobby. None are sold, and the market is flooded with crap nobody wants.

Who is damaged, aside from the people that invested in those businesses?

Now, imagine the far more likely outcome of a handful of boutique casters emerging, producing products that a handful of people like. Isn't' that good? And if the quality and level of production remain as low as you think, why would they damage GW when CH hasn't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Indeed. Just because a ton of new options would exist doesn't mean you have to buy them! We would all speak with our wallets as to which companies are producing good quality stuff, and to us as consumers anyways, it would only mean more options. There would indeed be a ton of crap too, but there already is to be honest.

Of course it means you don't have to buy them. But at the same time: Having more options isn't always the right way to go

Well said, Komrade! Why allow people to choose what they want? The next big step: eliminate all private health care! [/hyperbole]

Polonius wrote:I don't think it's an obscure point to say that while the hobby might not benefit from Chapterhouse winning, it certainly won't suffer.

Ok, so chapterhouse wins. Literally 100 different garage shops start producing bits. Literally none of them are of any use or value to any member of the hobby. None are sold, and the market is flooded with crap nobody wants.

Who is damaged, aside from the people that invested in those businesses?

The hobby, as a whole, just from having to suffer the few people who actually bought 'em?

Now, imagine the far more likely outcome of a handful of boutique casters emerging, producing products that a handful of people like. Isn't' that good? And if the quality and level of production remain as low as you think, why would they damage GW when CH hasn't?

Where did I say they "damage GW"?
As I said in the other thread:
I really do think this was just brought to a head by GW getting fed up with CH thumbing their noses at GW with the naming of their bits, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:Indeed. Just because a ton of new options would exist doesn't mean you have to buy them! We would all speak with our wallets as to which companies are producing good quality stuff, and to us as consumers anyways, it would only mean more options. There would indeed be a ton of crap too, but there already is to be honest.

Of course it means you don't have to buy them. But at the same time: Having more options isn't always the right way to go

Well said, Komrade! Why allow people to choose what they want? The next big step: eliminate all private health care! [/hyperbole]

Well would you rather have hundreds of ways to be stabbed in the eye, or one way?

But seriously. Too many chefs can ruin a stew.

In this case, I feel that we're getting screwed by the fact that alot of the more talented sculptors could be getting jobs with the "Big Companies"(PP, GW, Corvus Belli, etc) and improving the quality overall of the different games out there.

Or hell, they could be making their own games and just enriching the whole miniature wargaming hobby.

So, you think that when Jim-bob and Bubba start their own bitz company, they're going to lure away sculptors that were going to do great things for GW or PP? Given your dismissal of most third party stuff, I find that odd.

How is expanding the options for how GW armies look not enriching the hobby? I don't want to start a new game. I want different looking GW models. I think a lot of people feel the same way.

It seems to me you're defining "bad" as "not what I want."

Polonius wrote:So, you think that when Jim-bob and Bubba start their own bitz company, they're going to lure away sculptors that were going to do great things for GW or PP? Given your dismissal of most third party stuff, I find that odd.

I dismiss most third party bits because when compared with the GW stuff it is meant to go with, it looks like arse. It detracts from the overall look of the model. It's why I hate seeing those fething Pig Iron heads on Elysians.

But people like Scibor or the guys at Kromlech and MicroArts could have been doing great things for the established companies and games, if not doing their own IPs and actively competing with GW.

How is expanding the options for how GW armies look not enriching the hobby? I don't want to start a new game. I want different looking GW models. I think a lot of people feel the same way.

You're not really "expanding the options for how GW armies look" when everyone and their mother just basically follows the pack when it comes to what bits are sold.

It seems to me you're defining "bad" as "not what I want."

And it seems to me that you're still dodging the question

I, personally, find it stupid that people feel they need dozens upon dozens of relatively minor options available to purchase.

What's your question?

Why is it so bloody important to have dozens of companies producing bits, already available, for 40k?

Bcause most of the bitz being produced are not already available.

Kanluwen wrote:Why is it so bloody important to have dozens of companies producing bits, already available, for 40k?

I don't think it's important. I mean, not on any big level.

But I think that being able to have a different looking army is valuable to a lot of people. After hand painting chapter badges on a 100+ marines, I could see myself using aftermarket pads in the future.

And most of the chapterhouse is either a variation, or a completely new bit. You simply can't get a jetbike warlock from GW. Or a blood raven shoulder pad.

They are different. It's pretty likely that somebody will prefer the look of their stuff to that of the GW stuff.

So, lets' add this up:

Total cost of allowing third party bits: virtually nil to GW, arguably limiting the overall talent pool available to sculpt non-GW stuff
Total benefit of allowing third party bits: high to some people, nil to most. Creates distinct looking armies.

So, little to not cost. And at least some benefit.

Polonius wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Why is it so bloody important to have dozens of companies producing bits, already available, for 40k?

I don't think it's important. I mean, not on any big level.

But I think that being able to have a different looking army is valuable to a lot of people. After hand painting chapter badges on a 100+ marines, I could see myself using aftermarket pads in the future.

And most of the chapterhouse is either a variation, or a completely new bit. You simply can't get a jetbike warlock from GW. Or a blood raven shoulder pad.

They are different. It's pretty likely that somebody will prefer the look of their stuff to that of the GW stuff.

But.... you might be able to get the jetbike warlock or blood raven shoulder pad in the future. That's the tricky part here. As a company, GW should feel assured that it will be able to release future products based on their IP without having that Ip diluted or compromised by another company. Especially when the other company doesn't have a right to the material to begin with.

We all want stuff. But companies reserve a right to sell what they want, regardless of what any one consumer happens to want at that very moment.

I'm not comfortable with some poster's assertion (not you Polonius) that CH is in the right on this simply because GW hasn't released a model yet, or fast enough for some gamers. For all we know, there may be a Doom of Malantai model, already sculpted, copyright protected, etc, ready to be sold. But withheld to the date that GW desires to sell it and support it's release appropriately. I do know that there are MANY products like this with GW, mainly because I had friends on the inside.

I understand gamers' desires to build custom armies and models. But that desire can't overstep the rights of the owners of the material in the first place.

@LittleLeadMen: Well, my comments were in the context of there being no IP infringment.

That said, you're taking an overly broad view of how copyrighting works. CH isn't violating a copyright with the Jetbike Farseer model, because there isn't one made. Or, if there is, they will be limited to pretty low statutory damages because they couldn't copy a model they've never seen.

What GW could allege is that the imagery or some aspect of their sculpt borrows enough imagery from the canon of GW that it, as a whole, violates their IP. That's a tough sell. Absent the use of symbols, motifs, or strong design elements (beakie helmets, ork back plates) it's hard to find that a sculpture like that is really a violation of IP.

Now, if Doom of Malantai is trademarked, than using that name could be tricky. But creating a vaguely zoentrhopey looking thing, calling it the Alien Doom Mind, and selling it will likely not be a violation of IP.

A good rule to remember is that you can only protect the expression of an idea, not the idea itself.

If GW ever does put out a warlock on a jetbike model I'd be very interested to see (granted would be extremely hard to determine) if the fact that CH already has a version out really impacts GW's sales at all. It's neither here nor there but I'd guess that GW's core target market doesn't have the slightest clue who CH is who what they do

I agree. The key thing in the farseer jetbike example, however, is this. Just because GW hasn't released a model of a farseer on jetbike, doesn't mean that CH can. Mainly because they still have to make a farseer, and find a way to do it that doesn't infringe on all of the preexisting farseer models. And they would also have to sell an Eldar jetbike, which is something that's already been made, as well. Just because the CH Farseer is "sitting" doesn't distinguish it as a unique creation. The violation is in that case is in the Farseer, and Jetbike.

Also that you can't sell it as a "Farseer in Eldar Jetbike", obviously.

Also, in the case of the Doom of Malantai, you also have to legally consider "how close" the model looks to an existing model or design in the Tyranid range to be actionable. It's tricky, but generally speaking, if consumers could be confused and think that your model is the same as the GW one, it doesn't bode well for you, legally.

Again, most of my position here has been from the perspective that there has been IP infringement, in design, presentation, and without question in the way the items were named, marketed and sold.

A "warlock on a jetbike" is something you're going to have very few of in an army.

So just by dint of existing, it's already affected GW's sales to the more stingy people who don't care that it doesn't really "fit" the aesthetic of the rest of the army and didn't want to convert/whatever excuse they could possibly come up with to avoid buying another one.

It's why GW makes characters/elite units in metal for the most part. They can charge you more for your(potentially) one time purchase.

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

This may perhaps be an over the top example of what can go wrong with a company but the failure of Atari is an interesting read in what could happen.

http://www.neatorama.com/2008/05/05/the-rise-and-fall-of-atari/

Basically a lot of small companies started selling games for the Atari and the poor quality along with the flood of games broke the home video game market in the early and mid eighties. This market did not recover until Nintendo came out. Now obviously the reasons behind what happened are different but you are asking what could happen. So let me lay it out for you fully understanding it isn't very likely but anyway for the sake of intellectual argument here it is. GW gets completely defeated and other companies decide that they will start selling all these after market kits for all kinds of stuff. Now they don't have to worry about maintaining the rules or hiring any creative staff so they have a relative business advantage over GW. This leads to lower priced items flooding the market. GW can no longer compete price wise and has to cut back what it offers. After several years of this and a falling stock price GW is acquired by Hasbro / Wizards of the Coast for the IP. Hasbro then decides that they can make more money by making the game collectible and cease production of the metal and hard plastic miniatures and instead make soft plastic pre painted miniatures that they can mass produce in China for pennies.

Now is that going to happen? Almost certainly not but it is certainly a possibility.

This is where you might be able to make a case that the third party stuff is hurtful to some hobbyists:

Let's assume that GW decides what kits to sell based on how much it will cost to develop, manufacture, and ship them, compared to the profit margin and the number of units sold.

So, plastic kits with huge developments costs (molds aren't cheap) need to have a lot of offsetting sales, while metal models need fewer.

Now, as GW decides what stuff to make, they look at something like jetbike warlocks, and decide that the market for them is is weak, and if somebody is already selling them, they'll just scrub their plans entirely.

Now, the jetbike farseer is a terrible example, because GW has had literally 16+ years to do so, and haven't.

Polonius wrote:

But I think that being able to have a different looking army is valuable to a lot of people. After hand painting chapter badges on a 100+ marines, I could see myself using aftermarket pads in the future.

.

If you want that many you could just have a sculptor do one or two for you and have them cast. Considering your a lawyer you might even save money when you consider the time involved in painting.

brettz123 wrote:

Polonius wrote:

But I think that being able to have a different looking army is valuable to a lot of people. After hand painting chapter badges on a 100+ marines, I could see myself using aftermarket pads in the future.

.

If you want that many you could just have a sculptor do one or two for you and have them cast. Considering your a lawyer you might even save money when you consider the time involved in painting.

When I do my dream marine army, it will be with custom cast components all over the place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LittleLeadMen wrote:I agree. The key thing in the farseer jetbike example, however, is this. Just because GW hasn't released a model of a farseer on jetbike, doesn't mean that CH can. Mainly because they still have to make a farseer, and find a way to do it that doesn't infringe on all of the preexisting farseer models. And they would also have to sell an Eldar jetbike, which is something that's already been made, as well. Just because the CH Farseer is "sitting" doesn't distinguish it as a unique creation. The violation is in that case is in the Farseer, and Jetbike.

Also that you can't sell it as a "Farseer in Eldar Jetbike", obviously.

Also, in the case of the Doom of Malantai, you also have to legally consider "how close" the model looks to an existing model or design in the Tyranid range to be actionable. It's tricky, but generally speaking, if consumers could be confused and think that your model is the same as the GW one, it doesn't bode well for you, legally.

Again, most of my position here has been from the perspective that there has been IP infringement, in design, presentation, and without question in the way the items were named, marketed and sold.

Well, they don't sell a complete bike. You still need the GW jetbike.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=36&vmcchk=1

I think that's evocative of GW's style, but not a complete copy of anything they've done.

Well, we do custom commissions as well Polonius.

Its not something I advertise much at all, as it takes a good amount of time for the end product to be achieved and a little money and patience.

I have 3 pad designs being cast up as we speak for 3 clients. Of course we wont do a Icon GW has published or already done.

LittleLeadMen wrote:I agree. The key thing in the farseer jetbike example, however, is this. Just because GW hasn't released a model of a farseer on jetbike, doesn't mean that CH can. Mainly because they still have to make a farseer, and find a way to do it that doesn't infringe on all of the preexisting farseer models. And they would also have to sell an Eldar jetbike, which is something that's already been made, as well. Just because the CH Farseer is "sitting" doesn't distinguish it as a unique creation. The violation is in that case is in the Farseer, and Jetbike.

Also that you can't sell it as a "Farseer in Eldar Jetbike", obviously.

Also, in the case of the Doom of Malantai, you also have to legally consider "how close" the model looks to an existing model or design in the Tyranid range to be actionable. It's tricky, but generally speaking, if consumers could be confused and think that your model is the same as the GW one, it doesn't bode well for you, legally.

Again, most of my position here has been from the perspective that there has been IP infringement, in design, presentation, and without question in the way the items were named, marketed and sold.

Polonius wrote:Well, they don't sell a complete bike. You still need the GW jetbike.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.browse&category_id=36&vmcchk=1

I think that's evocative of GW's style, but not a complete copy of anything they've done.

Yuppers, its a completely new design and sculpt. You wont find its match in any of GWs products.

So personally, Nick and I have chatted, and believe me I don't proclaim to be an advocate of his by any stance, but even I would never wish for his business to go under. That is actually really harsh, but I suppose that is your rights to say that. Heck even my compitions I don't wish to go under as starting a business of any kind is hard work, long hours, and little pay at first. It takes a very patient person and family to deal with this too. Personally I think his products are getting better then the first stuff they produced. Same goes for a lot of companies out there. He has expanded well to take on several sculptors around the world who are commissioned by many different companies. For this I commend them, and though I do think in the end even if CH comes out on top the money that will be sunk into this law suite will hurt them dearly for the next few years, and that plain sucks.

Now to the other token I do think their was blatant infringement that was a bad mistake for them, but they are working to correct that, and hopefully things will work out for them.

But Its style is simmilar.

Chapterhouse wrote:

?