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That's not a GW studio army. They state they solicited pics from a guy who has sent them pics of his DA before. It's not the first time they show something a hobbyist made and gotten it wrong. A while back they showed a converted Baal predator and said the gun was from the IG Russ/Punisher kit.

shrike wrote:spread right across the CH homepage:
*Picture of the GW photo and caption*
"EVEN GW USES OUR PRODUCTS!"
Do it!

That falls under the heading of "really not helping matters", shrike.

brettz123 wrote:Thats pretty funny actually..... so if even GW gets confused does that help GW

I'd like to know what they're confused by, then, brettz123 - I just reviewed the Dark Angel Chapter Upgrade Frame, and none of the shoulder pads bear the slightest resemblance to the CH one.

I guess he is "stretching" facts a bit

Chapterhouse wrote:Darnit guys, Ive been trying to keep that on the down-low..

They did not even give us credit for our work on the GW site. Funnily that is something they are accusing us with according to the case documents.

Everyone save that webpage for later use.

Because it's not their work.
As someone else pointed out:

Games Workshop wrote:On the subject of Dark Angels, we sent an email to Kristian Duczek, an avid Dark Angels fan that has sent us fantastic pictures of his miniatures in the past. He didn't disappoint us this time either: here are his latest Angels of Darkness:

Games Workshop wrote:"This command squad was converted using parts from the Dark Angels Veterans kit and the Space Marine Command Squad. The banner bearer is available to order and his banner can be found on page 58 of Codex: Dark Angels. Kristian has also used several parts from other kits, most notably the Empire Flagellants, from which he has taken the head and the back banner for his squad sergeant."

It's like the Micro Arts base "incident" that happened a few weeks back.

The army showcases are, for the most part, non-GW submissions. If the submitter doesn't mention specific companies and the like; then it's not GW's responsibility to seek out what's not credited.

Kanluwen wrote:The army showcases are, for the most part, non-GW submissions. If the submitter doesn't mention specific companies and the like; then it's not GW's responsibility to seek out what's not credited.

Can't speak for anyone else, Kan, but I wasn't claiming it was - I just found it funny, that's all.

Dysartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The army showcases are, for the most part, non-GW submissions. If the submitter doesn't mention specific companies and the like; then it's not GW's responsibility to seek out what's not credited.

Can't speak for anyone else, Kan, but I wasn't claiming it was - I just found it funny, that's all.

Oh no doubt it's funny.
I just don't find it appropriate for CH to be claiming that he should be credited by Games Workshop or that it has any relevance whatsoever to the court case pending against him.

If it was a Studio army? Then yeah, I'd expect them to know exactly what bits went in, credit them properly, and not to try to pull a fast one like that.

Dysartes wrote:

brettz123 wrote:Thats pretty funny actually..... so if even GW gets confused does that help GW

I'd like to know what they're confused by, then, brettz123 - I just reviewed the Dark Angel Chapter Upgrade Frame, and none of the shoulder pads bear the slightest resemblance to the CH one.

Ummm...... learn to take a joke dude...... notice the funny face at the end of the post

Grasping at straws shows the reality of the situation. I think we all know the outcome. None of the arguments against GW are anything other than emotionally based. Cootbird should wear a gigantic CH Shoulderpad.

Kroothawk wrote:I guess he is "stretching" facts a bit

Ummmm...... nothing presented as facts. I was obviously joking about GW including the bits on their website from a company the are suing for making those very bits. You guys need to chill out a bit and take a step back. No matter how mad you get this will all be decided in the courts (or maybe settled I suppose).

I've been looking forward to this lawsuit for some time.

First, from a purely personal standpoint, I've always found Chapterhouse's attitude pretty obnoxious. I dislike their posts here and the over-the-top "I'm a master of all things legal, how dare you question how close we tread this line?" that they have conveyed for some time. I've always felt that Chapterhouse was a leach, and I'm glad to see GW finally take some action.

Second, I find their product to be pretty poorly sculpted. A lot of it is ugly, in my opinion. So, it will be nice to have that go away.

But most importantly, you simply can't get away with creating after-market products and selling them using another company's IP. I don't care if you make shoulderpads with scarabs on them. Maybe they're too close to GW IP, maybe not. But you certainly can't sell them as "Pre-heresy Thousand Sons shoulderpads". Only GW can do that, as it's their IP. Chapterhouse has been doing this for a long time, selling products (as described) that they don't have the legal rights to without a formal license.

On a related note, I'm also really tired of reading ignorant posts on this board, that say things like:

"GW is a monopoly, and Chapterhouse has a right to do this." GW isn't a monopoly. Chapterhouse needs a license.

or.. "GW hasn't released all the models I want form them (yet), so it's ok for Chapterhouse to fill the holes." GW can release their products on any timetable they see fit. It's their prerogative as a business. Choose to buy them or not, but a small number of gamer's personal dislike of GW's release schedule doesn't grant a separate 3rd party company the legal right to address these perceived gaps. And even if they want to take advantage of GW's release schedule and "beat them to it", Chapterhouse certainly cannot sell their "knockoffs" while using GW IP, names, trademarks, copyrights, etc.


Frankly, I'm surprised by the amount of Chapterhouse support shown in these threads. Regardless of whether you like GW or not, Chapterhouse doesn't have any legal rights to GW's characters, world, and creations. It's literally that simple. Coupled with their poor attitude and disregard for valuing other people's creative work and respecting other's rights, I'm happy to see the latest developments.

As I said, I've been looking forward to this for some time. I am going to take some small measure of pleasure in watching them get shut down and/or bankrupted.

Would your opinion change if the courts find that they do have a right to their IP?

They've already stopped labeling the stuff using trademarks. I doubt that will return. In my admittedly non-expert opinion, that's the most improper of their actions.

The actual sculpts all seem to be ok, which is why the complaint only makes a broad statement about them, and then lists six causes of action for dilution and use of trademarks.

LittleLeadMen wrote:I've been looking forward to this lawsuit for some time.

First, from a purely personal standpoint, I've always found Chapterhouse's attitude pretty obnoxious. I dislike their posts here and the over-the-top "I'm a master of all things legal, how dare you question how close we tread this line?" that they have conveyed for some time. I've always felt that Chapterhouse was a leach, and I'm glad to see GW finally take some action.

Second, I find their product to be pretty poorly sculpted. A lot of it is ugly, in my opinion. So, it will be nice to have that go away.

But most importantly, you simply can't get away with creating after-market products and selling them using another company's IP. I don't care if you make shoulderpads with scarabs on them. Maybe they're too close to GW IP, maybe not. But you certainly can't sell them as "Pre-heresy Thousand Sons shoulderpads". Only GW can do that, as it's their IP. Chapterhouse has been doing this for a long time, selling products (as described) that they don't have the legal rights to without a formal license.

On a related note, I'm also really tired of reading ignorant posts on this board, that say things like:

"GW is a monopoly, and Chapterhouse has a right to do this." GW isn't a monopoly. Chapterhouse needs a license.

or.. "GW hasn't released all the models I want form them (yet), so it's ok for Chapterhouse to fill the holes." GW can release their products on any timetable they see fit. It's their prerogative as a business. Choose to buy them or not, but a small number of gamer's personal dislike of GW's release schedule doesn't grant a separate 3rd party company the legal right to address these perceived gaps. And even if they want to take advantage of GW's release schedule and "beat them to it", Chapterhouse certainly cannot sell their "knockoffs" while using GW IP, names, trademarks, copyrights, etc.


Frankly, I'm surprised by the amount of Chapterhouse support shown in these threads. Regardless of whether you like GW or not, Chapterhouse doesn't have any legal rights to GW's characters, world, and creations. It's literally that simple. Coupled with their poor attitude and disregard for valuing other people's creative work and respecting other's rights, I'm happy to see the latest developments.

As I said, I've been looking forward to this for some time. I am going to take some small measure of pleasure in watching them get shut down and/or bankrupted.

Yeah I had those thoughts too. But never wanted to say it or people here would have hated me. Their products aren't that good although they got some okay stuff, But nothing I would ever get their products. There were other conversions bitz out there that were better than ChapterHouse bitz.

Just to be clear here, I'm no bits puritan. There's plenty of awesome 3rd party stuff out there, and I've bought a pile of it to add to my regular GW stuff. For example, I've purchased completely resin tank treads that were completely original sculpts. They fit on a variety of GW models. I don't take objection because they were original sculpts, sold in limited runs, didn't look like any GW stuff, didn't use GW imagery, and weren't sold as "GW Ork Treads for Looted Wagons" (for example). No big deal there.

Same way that Kromlech makes interesting resin stuff that could (or could not) be used with 40k orks. Great sculpting, fun ideas. They seem to know where the line is, and they don't really cross it. No big deal.

What I've always objected to was the Chapterhouse attitude, as well as that they would blatantly name and sculpt things in a way that was clearly actionable. There's a line somewhere when a party goes from adding in helpful bits to being somewhat of a leach. In my personal opinion, Chapterhouse crossed it awhile back. That's totally my 2 cents, which is worth diddly-squat.

LittleLeadMen wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised by the amount of Chapterhouse support shown in these threads.

Just like the support for Knock-offs and Piracy in other communities (and people who recast in this community), many people's attitude on the internet can be boiled down to: "I waaaaaaaaaaaaant it, and I should get things I want and I don't care who it hurts!"

Some people have no problem looking the other way on Copyright infringement and IP infringement as long as they get 'theirs'.

One of the things that gets me is I am curious how shoulderpads are 'aftermarket' when GW makes an extensive line of shoulderpads and is actually in the business of making shoulderpad packs with their own IP, so a shoulderpad is a complete product. This seems to be more in the market of directly competing products using GWs own IP and designs with nearly identical pieces.

nkelsch, that's an interesting point about the pads etc being complete products.

Wonder if that would be one of GW's arguments before the court?

nkelsch wrote:

LittleLeadMen wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised by the amount of Chapterhouse support shown in these threads.

Just like the support for Knock-offs and Piracy in other communities (and people who recast in this community), many people's attitude on the internet can be boiled down to: "I waaaaaaaaaaaaant it, and I should get things I want and I don't care who it hurts!"

Nothing CH makes is a knock off or pirated.

Some people have no problem looking the other way on Copyright infringement and IP infringement as long as they get 'theirs'.

that is generally true. I think GW is going to have a hard time showing that CH's models violate their IP though. The use of GW trademarks in their marketing might be dicey. But the products are unlikely to all be found to infringe.

One of the things that gets me is I am curious how shoulderpads are 'aftermarket' when GW makes an extensive line of shoulderpads and is actually in the business of making shoulderpad packs with their own IP, so a shoulderpad is a complete product. This seems to be more in the market of directly competing products using GWs own IP and designs with nearly identical pieces.

Aftermarket just means that it was made by somebody other than the original manufacturer to work with a product. So an Ipod case, a truck bed cap, or a gun scope are all aftermarket.

As for being "nearly identical," that becomes a question of fact. You literally have the jury figure out if they're close enough to essentially be copies. Good luck with most of the stuff, as IIRC none of the symbols were copied, and while they evoke a similar style, none are close to enough to not be immediately told apart.

LittleLeadMen wrote:

As I said, I've been looking forward to this for some time. I am going to take some small measure of pleasure in watching them get shut down and/or bankrupted.

your more then welcome to your point of view....but I think at the end of the day its a poor reflection on you as a person that your going to take pleasure in knowing someone could get bankrupted....at the end of the day CH is making bits for little plastic army men...a game...legal action on the other hand impacts the folks running CH...who likely have families...whether CH was right or wrong to the letter of the law is for the powers that be to decide but at the end of the day its actual people who could suffer...all for a hobby

ironicsilence wrote:
You're more than welcome to your point of view, but I think at the end of the day its a poor reflection on you as a person that you're going to take pleasure in knowing someone could get bankrupted.

And I think that it's a poor reflection on you that the only statement you can make is some kind of attempted "Woe is Chapterhouse!" remark.

at the end of the day CH is making bits for little plastic army men for a game

Which they're doing without license, while using trademarked terms.

legal action on the other hand impacts the folks running CH,who likely have families.

...So, by your logic, because they have families and are "making bits for little plastic army men"--it means that the law doesn't apply?

Whether CH was right or wrong to the letter of the law is for the powers that be to decide but at the end of the day its actual people who could suffer all for a hobby

No. It's actual people who could suffer all for a business.

If CH was one individual being sued for having sculpted and cast up bits for their own personal army, this would be an entirely different story. This was about profiting from a niche that CH believed they could exploit. They poked the bear, and now the bear's awake and peeved.

I think the key here is that nobody was getting hurt by Chapterhouse. Even GW couldn't allege any actual damages in their complaint.

While if Chapterhouse does go under, people will be hurt. I mean the law is the law, and if they're in the wrong they need to stop, but cheering on the loss of chapterhouse seems a bit odd to me.

ironicsilence wrote:

LittleLeadMen wrote:

As I said, I've been looking forward to this for some time. I am going to take some small measure of pleasure in watching them get shut down and/or bankrupted.

your more then welcome to your point of view....but I think at the end of the day its a poor reflection on you as a person that your going to take pleasure in knowing someone could get bankrupted....at the end of the day CH is making bits for little plastic army men...a game...legal action on the other hand impacts the folks running CH...who likely have families...whether CH was right or wrong to the letter of the law is for the powers that be to decide but at the end of the day its actual people who could suffer...all for a hobby

Well, sometimes you have to distasteful things. For instance, I work in Insurance, and just the other day, the actions I took could result in someone losing his job. Do I want this to happen? Not especially, I feel a bit of git, but then, I'm not responsible for his companies rules. He hit my client's vehicle, and the law says my client has a right to restitution. I can't let the possibility of the Third Party becoming unemployed prevent that right. It sucks for him, but it's not my, or my clients fault or problem.

did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

Polonius wrote:I think the key here is that nobody was getting hurt by Chapterhouse. Even GW couldn't allege any actual damages in their complaint.

While if Chapterhouse does go under, people will be hurt. I mean the law is the law, and if they're in the wrong they need to stop, but cheering on the loss of chapterhouse seems a bit odd to me.

Fair enough.

I just don't see the point in trying to make CH out like some kind of sob story or poor mistreated runt of the litter.

They knew what they were doing when they started. Hell, it was pretty obvious they knew how it could end with the fact they continually restated they've "consulted with IP lawyers on the issues involved".

ironicsilence wrote:

LittleLeadMen wrote:

As I said, I've been looking forward to this for some time. I am going to take some small measure of pleasure in watching them get shut down and/or bankrupted.

your more then welcome to your point of view....but I think at the end of the day its a poor reflection on you as a person that your going to take pleasure in knowing someone could get bankrupted....at the end of the day CH is making bits for little plastic army men...a game...legal action on the other hand impacts the folks running CH...who likely have families...whether CH was right or wrong to the letter of the law is for the powers that be to decide but at the end of the day its actual people who could suffer...all for a hobby

Obviously, I disagree with you. I don't see how it's a poor reflection on me that I take some small measure of pleasure in seeing a company/business that copies and infringes on the property rights of another company/business shut down or bankrupted as a result of said infringement. Businesses that infringe on the property rights of other businesses should, ideally, suffer for their poor choices. That's a basic principle of free market capitalism.

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

One phrase.
"Quantity does not equal quality."

Kanluwen wrote:

Polonius wrote:

cpt.skara wrote:did any one stop for a second and think what would happen if CH won?......that would open up the door for EVERY third party company known to man to make "GW BITS for use with" which in the long run could be bad IMO

Why?

Seriously, why would that be bad? Take a minute and think about how on earth that would be bad.

One phrase.
"Quantity does not equal quality."

That explains why it might not be good. Not why it might be bad.

I highly doubt that if CH wins that instantly means "omg anyone and everyone can make 'official GW conversion bits' and market them as such!!11"

That's a pretty big leap if you ask me.

Kanluwen wrote:

Polonius wrote:I think the key here is that nobody was getting hurt by Chapterhouse. Even GW couldn't allege any actual damages in their complaint.

While if Chapterhouse does go under, people will be hurt. I mean the law is the law, and if they're in the wrong they need to stop, but cheering on the loss of chapterhouse seems a bit odd to me.

Fair enough.

I just don't see the point in trying to make CH out like some kind of sob story or poor mistreated runt of the litter.

They knew what they were doing when they started. Hell, it was pretty obvious they knew how it could end with the fact they continually restated they've "consulted with IP lawyers on the issues involved".

No, business is business. If Chapterhouse wins, I'm only happy because i want to buy some of their product. If they lose, I'm only sad because I wanted to buy some of their product.