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Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Does that sound accurate?

Up until you make this leap, yes.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If no evidence can be found to prove either argument valid, then the only conclusion that remains to be drawn is that a Sweeping Advance removes EL counters, and that therefore a model with EL may not return after its unit has suffered a Sweeping Advance, regardless of when in the Assault Phase it was removed.

It's not a leap at all; it's a logical requirement.

If the EL counter is associated with the unit, and all counters associated with the unit are removed when a Necron unit with the Resurrection Protocols rule Falls Back (in other words, if neither Argument 1 nor Argument 2 can be proven), then the only logically permissible conclusion is that EL counters are removed when a Necron unit with Resurrection Protocols rule Falls Back; and since you Fall Back BEFORE Sweeping Advance is conducted, that means that any unit with Resurrection Protocols which suffers a Sweeping Advance must, necessarily, have by that point removed the EL counters of any attached Independent Characters.

Does that make sense?

Monster Rain wrote:

kirsanth wrote:[Nothing in the rules says to separate the rolls, and there is a rule saying those rolls are the same.

Except, of course, the Ever Living rules description.

I get it, you think that FAQ was specifying how to roll a d6.


Hard to argue with that mentality.

Yad wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Ah, good. I'm not crazy, then.

If no evidence can be found to prove either argument valid, then the only conclusion that remains to be drawn is that a Sweeping Advance removes EL counters, and that therefore a model with EL may not return after its unit has suffered a Sweeping Advance, regardless of when in the Assault Phase it was removed.

Does that sound accurate?

I think this bit presents a false choice. The instructions on when and how you can remove [RP] counters are found only in the RP rule section. Meaning their removal is directed/controled by the RP rule-set. As that rule only mentions a completed fall back move as the only way you can remove the counters then a SA cannot do so.

-Yad

Aside from that, I think you've given a good summary.

But according to the rules, Fall Back moves are triggered by the same thing that trigger Sweeping Advance (losing a combat, then failing a Leadership check), and happen first; which means that any unit which ever suffers a Sweeping Advance has already made a Fall Back move.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If the EL counter is associated with the unit, and all counters associated with the unit are removed when a Necron unit with the Resurrection Protocols rule Falls Back (in other words, if neither Argument 1 nor Argument 2 can be proven), then the only logically permissible conclusion is that EL counters are removed when a Necron unit with Resurrection Protocols rule Falls Back; and since you Fall Back BEFORE Sweeping Advance is conducted, that means that any unit with Resurrection Protocols which suffers a Sweeping Advance must, necessarily, have by that point removed the EL counters of any attached Independent Characters.

Does that make sense?

I understand what you're saying, but since the EL roll can be made independently of the unit in which the character with the rule had joined I don't see it as being that clear cut.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:Hard to argue with that mentality.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about people who get really hostile while discussing the rules for Space Barbies.

Look at the other people that I've discussed this with for examples of how to do it reasonably. Berserker and Lordhat, for example, though there have been others.

Monster Rain wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but since the EL roll can be made independently of the unit in which the character with the rule had joined I don't see it as being that clear cut.

So you're making Argument 2, then; you're claiming that the EL counter isn't associated with the unit. Right?

That then runs afoul of the Necron FAQ again; the wargear, at least, of a dead IC still affects his unit. That implies that the IC is still part of that unit, since of course the wargear can't affect a unit he isn't a part of. Is there a counter-example somewhere?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but since the EL roll can be made independently of the unit in which the character with the rule had joined I don't see it as being that clear cut.

So you're making Argument 2, then; you're claiming that the EL counter isn't associated with the unit.

That then runs afoul of the Necron FAQ again; the wargear, at least, of a dead IC still affects his unit. That implies that the IC is still part of that unit, since of course the wargear can't affect a unit he isn't a part of. Is there a counter-example somewhere?

I think applying the Res Orb ruling to the EL debate is part of the problem. It seems contradictory to me, so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Res orb on a dead IC affects the unit, but the dead IC can come back if his unit has been destroyed.

@kirsanth
Every ruling you mentioned, governs the rolls for EL and RP counters. The roll is the same but the prerequistive is different. The RP rolls require RP counters and EL rolls require EL counters. Those counters are fundamentally different. If they were to be the same, then there wouldn't be a need for 2 kinds of counters.

Monster Rain wrote:Funny, I was thinking the same thing about people who get really hostile while discussing the rules for Space Barbies.

Look at the other people that I've discussed this with for examples of how to do it reasonably. Berserker and Lordhat, for example, though there have been others.

I have been hostile? Push the little yellow button.

What do your barbies have to do with anything??

If being reasonable means ignoring your unreason. . .sure? But even then, I do not see it.

You are saying that the two rolls are done just as each other but they do not use any of the same rule except for the d6.
I think that is utter nonsense.

How is that being unreasonable, and not simply calling you on what I see as a ridiculous error?

Monster Rain wrote:

I think applying the Res Orb ruling to the EL debate is part of the problem. It seems contradictory to me, so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

This is what I'm asking; contradictory of what?

The question of whether a dead IC continued to be a part of his unit has honestly never come up before, I don't believe. That being so, I don't think there's any contradictory precedent. I could have missed something, of course; what is it that you're thinking of when you say it seems contradictory?

EDIT: Argument moved to a later post, for the sake of clarity. Damn slow editing function.

copper.talos wrote: If they were to be the exactly the same, then there wouldn't be a need for 2 kinds of counters.

The rule for RP simply says counters BECAUSE they are different.

If it had said RP counters, you would be 100% undeniably correct.

It doesn't. You are not.

Editing to add:
This is like my uber-vindication of my "utterly absurd" stance on Warp Time.
It said "all" because it meant it.

Without a qualifier, "counters" means "all counters".

AFAIK, the only difference of the 2 counters is as follows:
How they are placed.
...RP-next to unit
...EL-where model went down
How the models who passed are placed.
...RP-in coherency with unit
...EL-in coherency with unit or within 3" of counter
If you need the unit to come back.
...RP-Yes
...EL-No

Are there any other listed differences I might have missed?

kirsanth wrote:I have been hostile? Push the little yellow button.

I'm much more apt to just push the ignore button.

I'm sorry that you think that I'm being unreasonable by disagreeing with you.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I think applying the Res Orb ruling to the EL debate is part of the problem. It seems contradictory to me, so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

This is what I'm asking; contradictory of what?

The question of whether a dead IC continued to be a part of his unit has honestly never come up before, I don't believe. That being so, I don't think there's any contradictory precedent. I could have missed something, of course; what is it that you're thinking of when you say it seems contradictory?

I'm saying that the Necron FAQ, now that we've gone over this in such detail, seems to contradict itself in regard to whether or not a dead IC is part of a unit or not. I don't think there's any precedent for this at all.

Monster Rain wrote:

I'm saying that the Necron FAQ, now that we've gone over this in such detail, seems to contradict itself in regard to whether or not a dead IC is part of a unit or not. I don't think there's any precedent for this at all.

Ok, let's think about this.

First of all; do note that the only circumstance in which the IC can come back alone is when the unit has been wiped out. So, first point; as long as the unit exists, these two don't contradict. The IC can't leave the unit, even if he's dead. I would interpret that as saying that the UNIT can, in certain circumstances, leave HIM even when HE isn't allowed to leave THEM.

That isn't contradictory, read that way. A unit can be wiped out by effects which only happen to specific models; wounds taken in close combat, for instance. All the models are gone, that means the unit is gone by definition. What the Necron FAQ has done is given ICs a special dispensation to return even after every individual model in the unit has been killed. Since the unit no longer exists on the tabletop, they cannot then be part of that unit anymore, so they get to come back alone.

I don't see that the FAQ ruling in this case says anything, however, about effects which encompass the whole unit as a singular entity, rather than affecting all its pieces individually. The unit, as an entity, still includes the dead IC; that's what the Rez Orb ruling told us. Given that, anything that affects the whole unit should affect him, too; including removing tokens that are associated with him.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm saying that the Necron FAQ, now that we've gone over this in such detail, seems to contradict itself in regard to whether or not a dead IC is part of a unit or not. I don't think there's any precedent for this at all.

Oddly, this is sort of where I am coming from. It agrees with what I have always said, and has no contradiction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm sorry that you think that I'm being unreasonable by disagreeing with you.

You don't? Are you crazy?

I think anyone who disagrees with me is unreasonable, simply because I know I am so reasonable, that I would change my mind as soon as someone proves me wrong. . .

BeRzErKeR wrote:I don't see that the rule says anything, however, about effects which encompass the whole unit as a singular entity, rather than affecting all its pieces individually. The unit, as an entity, still includes the dead IC; that's what the Rez Orb ruling told us. Given that, anything that affects the whole unit should affect him, too; including removing tokens that are associated with him.

The last paragraph in the RP rules doesn't fit with that interpretation, though, does it?

Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I don't see that the rule says anything, however, about effects which encompass the whole unit as a singular entity, rather than affecting all its pieces individually. The unit, as an entity, still includes the dead IC; that's what the Rez Orb ruling told us. Given that, anything that affects the whole unit should affect him, too; including removing tokens that are associated with him.

The last paragraph in the RP rules doesn't fit with that interpretation, though, does it?

I think it does. As I said before, I don't have access to the Codex, so I can't peruse the exact wording right now.

If someone could quote the rule here it would be helpful; but it's been discussed quite a lot by this point, and I haven't yet seen anything that contradicts my argument. Are you thinking of something in specific?

I'm basing this piece of the argument on the FAQ ruling on Rez Orbs, not the RP rule itself, by the way.

I'm thinking about how the RP rules say that you remove all of the counters after the last model is removed as a casualty (in the same breath as using the word "destroyed", mind) in stark contrast to the EL rules, and FAQ ruling.

Also, the attached IC doesn't count for allowing the unit to make RP rolls, so he's no longer part of the unit at that point either, it would seem.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm thinking about how the RP rules say that you remove all of the counters after the last model is removed as a casualty (in the same breath as using the word "destroyed", mind) in stark contrast to the EL rules, and FAQ ruling.

Also, the attached IC doesn't count for allowing the unit to make RP rolls, so he's no longer part of the unit at that point either, it would seem.

Don't the RP rules tell you to remove all counters when the unit makes a Fall Back move?

And still no one has answered my question, about halfway up.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm thinking about how the RP rules say that you remove all of the counters after the last model is removed as a casualty (in the same breath as using the word "destroyed", mind) in stark contrast to the EL rules, and FAQ ruling.

Also, the attached IC doesn't count for allowing the unit to make RP rolls, so he's no longer part of the unit at that point either, it would seem.

Don't the RP rules tell you to remove all counters when the unit makes a Fall Back move?

In addition to what I posted, yes.

It says to remove all counters when the unit has been destroyed (read: all models have been removed as casualties) as well, though. And we know that EL contradicts that one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:And still no one has answered my question, about halfway up.

I think we're in the process of working that out.

Monster Rain wrote:It says to remove all counters when the unit has been destroyed (read: all models have been removed as casualties) as well, though. And we know that EL contradicts that one.

Not if it is part of the unit.

Monster Rain wrote:
Also, the attached IC doesn't count for allowing the unit to make RP rolls, so he's no longer part of the unit at that point either, it would seem.

That isnt a logical conclusion. Nothing indicates this has anything to unit ownership at all.

It doesnt alter that you lack permission to save the unit, EVEN WITH the FAQ, because the FAQ does not specify that saving the unit is allowed even against Sweeping Advance

nosferatu1001 wrote:because the FAQ does not specify that saving the unit is allowed even against Sweeping Advance

In before: we did not save it, we rescued it from destruction by SA after SA destroyed it.

Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I'm thinking about how the RP rules say that you remove all of the counters after the last model is removed as a casualty (in the same breath as using the word "destroyed", mind) in stark contrast to the EL rules, and FAQ ruling.

Also, the attached IC doesn't count for allowing the unit to make RP rolls, so he's no longer part of the unit at that point either, it would seem.

Don't the RP rules tell you to remove all counters when the unit makes a Fall Back move?

In addition to what I posted, yes.

It says to remove all counters when the unit has been destroyed (read: all models have been removed as casualties) as well, though. And we know that EL contradicts that one.

Fair enough, but that's because EL has a specific exemption from that particular removal trigger. It doesn't have one from the removal triggered by Fall Back moves, I don't believe. So the fact that EL counters aren't removed when all models are dead isn't actually relevant here; unless we can find something that tells us either that they aren't associated with the unit or that "all counters" only ever means "all RP counters", they'll still be removed at THAT point, and the fact that they would be immune to being removed when all models were removed is immaterial.

"Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it."

In the context of this paragraph, "any counters" mean only the RP counters.

Honestly, Im just going to give it to the necron players at my local. It isnt broken and can be stopped if you consolidate enough to where they cant be placed. Im sure this will be FAQ and im willing to bet that they will give it to them.

There is nothing in EL that lets it come back if it was in a unit when it died, and that unit is no longer around.

Unless I totally missed it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Fair enough, but that's because EL has a specific exemption from that particular removal trigger. It doesn't have one from the removal triggered by Fall Back moves, I don't believe. So the fact that EL counters aren't removed when all models are dead isn't actually relevant here; unless we can find something that tells us either that they aren't associated with the unit or that "all counters" only ever means "all RP counters", they'll still be removed at THAT point, and the fact that they would be immune to being removed when all models were removed is immaterial.

I guess what I'm failing to understand here is why, in the absence of specificity, you are drawing this conclusion instead of what can reasonably be inferred from the EL rules and the relevant FAQ entries that the EL model's reanimation is related to the location of its token and not the unit to which it was attached.

copper.talos wrote:"Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it."

In the context of this paragraph, "any counters" mean only the RP counters.

This is not true, since EL counters are placed instead of RP counters.

kirsanth wrote:There is nothing in EL that lets it come back if it was in a unit when it died, and that unit is no longer around.

Unless I totally missed it.

Right, that part is in the FAQ.