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Monster Rain wrote:Right, that part is in the FAQ.

Thanks, I knew I had even posted that earlier.

Work is getting in the way of my toys!

Technically, the FAQ only references a unit that was "wiped out". Now, if only we knew if GW meant Destroyed and Wiped Out were exactly the same.

"Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it."

The 1st sentence tell how to place counters. Not RP counters. Should I be placing EL counters then? Do I get to choose? In the 1st sentence I am told how to place RP counters, in the 2nd sentence a reason to remove them.

Happyjew wrote:Technically, the FAQ only references a unit that was "wiped out". Now, if only we knew if GW meant Destroyed and Wiped Out were exactly the same.

It's been shown at least two times in this very thread that they can be the same.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I don't see that the rule says anything, however, about effects which encompass the whole unit as a singular entity, rather than affecting all its pieces individually. The unit, as an entity, still includes the dead IC; that's what the Rez Orb ruling told us. Given that, anything that affects the whole unit should affect him, too; including removing tokens that are associated with him.

The last paragraph in the RP rules doesn't fit with that interpretation, though, does it?

I think it does. As I said before, I don't have access to the Codex, so I can't peruse the exact wording right now.

If someone could quote the rule here it would be helpful; but it's been discussed quite a lot by this point, and I haven't yet seen anything that contradicts my argument. Are you thinking of something in specific?

I'm basing this piece of the argument on the FAQ ruling on Rez Orbs, not the RP rule itself, by the way.

From some of your comments It is obvious you don't have access to the codex and so this debate has gotten completely out of hand. You are actually questioning the difference between RP and EL counters. You suggested as have others that may have been led astray by you that when doing a fall back move, EL counters are removed. RP counters are removed when the unit is wiped out, EL counters are not. This is the entire basis of how EL works!

This is very obvious if you would just read the rules in question. How the counters are placed and removed are handled completely separately.

RP rules do not mention EL counters!

RP from the EL rules: "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

Do you see anything in that sentence about how to remove a counter or fall back moves? Because there is nothing relating the two.

If you don't have the rules in front of you unless you have memorized them word for word, please do not comment as we have just had about a page of debate over some points that are plain as day if you have the codex in front of you.

MR I did not say can mean the same. I said were exactly the same. Slight difference.

@ Nemesor Dave:

In fairness, he may have had access to the rules at the time that we began this dance, and had to go to school or work or something.

That's what I'm assuming happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:MR I did not say can mean the same. I said were exactly the same. Slight difference.

Right, but since they are used interchangeably at times I don't know if there's a definitive answer.

My brain hurts.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
From some of your comments It is obvious you don't have access to the codex and so this debate has gotten completely out of hand. You are actually questioning the difference between RP and EL counters. You suggested as have others that may have been led astray by you that when doing a fall back move, EL counters are removed. RP counters are removed when the unit is wiped out, EL counters are not. This is the entire basis of how EL works!

This is very obvious if you would just read the rules in question. How the counters are placed and removed are handled completely separately.

RP rules do not mention EL counters!

RP from the EL rules: "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

Do you see anything in that sentence about how to remove a counter or fall back moves? Because there is nothing relating the two.

If you don't have the rules in front of you unless you have memorized them word for word, please do not comment as we have just had about a page of debate over some points that are plain as day if you have the codex in front of you.

Sigh.

If you had actually read my posts, you would have noticed that I never, at any time, have argued that EL counters are the same thing as RP counters.

That does not change the fact that the RP rules state that 'all counters' are removed when the unit Falls Back.

Not all RP counters.

All counters.

If an EL counter is a counter (which it is), then in the absence of something SPECIFICALLY AND EXPLICITLY exempting EL counters from that requirement, they are removed whenever the unit Falls Back; and since any unit which suffers a Sweeping Advance has necessarily Fallen Back immediately prior, that would mean that by the time Sweeping Advance ever becomes an issue, the EL counter is already gone.

Now, as I pointed out earlier, there are two ways you can argue against this; either EL counters aren't associated with the unit, or the RP rule is referring only to RP counters. Proving either assertion will be satisfactory. And now that you have my actual argument in front of you, instead of your strawman, you can work on actually making a counter-argument.

Monster Rain wrote:I guess what I'm failing to understand here is why, in the absence of specificity, you are drawing this conclusion instead of what can reasonably be inferred from the EL rules and the relevant FAQ entries that the EL model's reanimation is related to the location of its token and not the unit to which it was attached.

Well, that's what the whole debate here is about, isn't it? We have rules and FAQ rulings indicating both that EL is associated with the unit AND that it's associated with the counter. The interpretation I'm presenting is, I argue, the only logical way to reconcile said rulings without voiding one or the other. We can't simply ignore rules; we have to find some way to make them work together. So I'm presenting a possibility, and then looking to see if logical holes can be poked in it. I don't think there have been any so far.

Happyjew wrote:MR I did not say can mean the same. I said were exactly the same. Slight difference.

As we have shown here, wiped out can mean destroyed, but destroyed does not mean wiped out.

Destroy is the fruit, wipe out is the apple. A point ND appears to ignore

BeRzErKeR wrote:

That does not change the fact that the RP rules state that 'all counters' are removed when the unit Falls Back.

Not all RP counters.

All counters.

The only problem with this argument, is there are other things that use counters. Wounds suffered for Multi-wound models. Marking which unit is under the effects of HfH rule. So unfortunately, "any counters" cannot literally mean any counters attached to the unit.
Please note however, I do agree that "any counters" means all RP and EL counters.

Edited based on new information below.

@BeRzErKeR

"All counters" is wrong

From the RP rule "Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it."

In the 1st sentence you are said to place counters and in the unit. The 2nd sentence gives you a reason to remove counters from the unit. In the given context those counters RP counters.

Furthermore RP counters are the only counters placed to the unit. EL counters are placed on the table. A significant difference.

copper.talos wrote:Furthermore RP counters are the only counters placed to the unit. EL counters are placed on the table. A significant difference.

Significant, and definitive in my opinion.

How do you place a counter to a unit?

You need to re-read the rules if you're asking that question.

kirsanth wrote:

copper.talos wrote: If they were to be the exactly the same, then there wouldn't be a need for 2 kinds of counters.

The rule for RP simply says counters BECAUSE they are different.

If it had said RP counters, you would be 100% undeniably correct.

It doesn't. You are not.

Editing to add:
This is like my uber-vindication of my "utterly absurd" stance on Warp Time.
It said "all" because it meant it.

Without a qualifier, "counters" means "all counters".

Sorry this is wrong. The RP rules talk about RP counters only and no mention is made of EL counters yet. This falls under Reanimation Protocols.

In the Ever-Living section it says how to place and remove Ever-Living counters. At the end of this phase roll for EL like you would roll for RP. Otherwise EL has its own rules for when and how to remove EL counters and they are completely different than RP counters. Specifically they are not removed under any of the conditions that RP counters are removed except for failed rolls.

I would guess you didn't read the rules or haven't seen the page in the codex to have such an obvious question. Please read it again.

There may be room for debate and some ambiguity, but this is not where its at.

Yeah, it was a joke.

Happyjew wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

That does not change the fact that the RP rules state that 'all counters' are removed when the unit Falls Back.

Not all RP counters.

All counters.

The only problem with this argument, is there are other things that use counters. Wounds suffered for Multi-wound models. Marking which unit is under the effects of HfH rule. So unfortunately, "all counters" cannot literally mean all counters attached to the unit.
Please note however, I do agree that "all counters" means all RP and EL counters.

Copper has the right of it though (which supports my context argument).

To quote, "If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the phase. Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters (NOTE: this does not say RP counters*) or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it - any damaged Necrons are left behind and self-destruct rather than risk capture by the enemy."

In the Ever-living rules, "If a model with this special rule is remived as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

In my opinion it seem that, given the context under which the Reanimation Protocols are read, they are referring to RP counters, both in their placement and removal.

*added by me.

-Yad

Happyjew wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

That does not change the fact that the RP rules state that 'all counters' are removed when the unit Falls Back.

Not all RP counters.

All counters.

The only problem with this argument, is there are other things that use counters. Wounds suffered for Multi-wound models. Marking which unit is under the effects of HfH rule. So unfortunately, "all counters" cannot literally mean all counters attached to the unit.
Please note however, I do agree that "all counters" means all RP and EL counters.

No, saying that 'all counters' means 'all RP and EL counters' I can't see an argument for. That would be very tidy, but I don't think it's supported.

I think it DOES mean 'all counters', literally. And yes, that means you remove all those other counters, too, which fortunately has no effect on the game. Wound counters, for instance, are not actually wounds; removing them does not magically restore lost wounds. And you can put them back immediately; they have no in-game effect, simply being a way to help you keep track of wounds received.

copper.talos wrote:@BeRzErKeR

"All counters" is wrong

From the RP rule "Whenever a unit takes one or more casualties, place counters or other suitable markers next to the unit to remind you how many casualties were taken. If the unit makes a fall back move, remove any counters from it."

In the 1st sentence you are said to place counters and in the unit. The 2nd sentence gives you a reason to remove counters from the unit. In the given context those counters RP counters.

Furthermore RP counters are the only counters placed to the unit. EL counters are placed on the table. A significant difference.

The first sentence tells you to place a specific type of counter. The second sentence tells you to remove all counters. There isn't any limit attached to what kinds of counters you're removing; reading the rule literally, yes, you have to remove 'all counters'. It would have been very easy to write 'all Resurrection Protocol counters' or something similar, but that isn't what's on the page and so it isn't the rule we have to follow.

Your second point has to be thought about a bit more carefully. RP counters are placed "next to the unit". EL counters are placed where the model with EL died. That's certainly a difference in placement.

But if you'll look back over the last two pages, you'll notice that MR and I have already been talking about exactly this point. The question is whether EL counters are associated with the unit, or not; if they are, they have to be removed when the unit Falls Back, while if they aren't, they don't. But given the precedent of the Necron FAQ (indicating that models which are dead are still part of the unit) I'm arguing that they ARE attached to the unit.

My position (to paraphrase myself) is that EL never gives the character permission to leave the unit; what it does is create a situation under which the UNIT can leave the CHARACTER, ie by all models in the unit being killed. EL tokens have a specific exemption that allows them to remain on the table even though 'all counters' are removed when the last model of the unit is (I will note that this supports the interpretation that 'all counters' means 'all counters', not 'all RP counters'; if it only meant RP counters, there would be no need for this exemption); clearly, at this point, the token is still considered to be associated with the unit. That MUST mean that any effect which affects the unit as an entity (like removing counters when Falling Back) still affects the dead IC and his EL token.

Since you take the "any counters" at face value to remove all the counters on it, then take the "any counters from it" at face value too, and remove only the counters that you were explicitely told to place on the unit.

copper.talos wrote:Since you take the "any counters" at face value to remove all the counters on it, then take the "any counters from it" at face value too, and remove only the counters that you were explicitely told to place on the unit.

Sorry, I don't follow. What am I not taking at face value?

There are counters present. I am told to remove any of them which are associated with the unit. I then remove each and every counter which is associated with the unit.

The most logical answer would be to remove any counter which represented a model which was part of the unit before it died. This includes EL counters. Since there is no rule which, in this situation, keeps EL counters on the board (though there is for a different situation), I remove them as well as all the RP counters.

The answer which I have just been presenting rules support for is to remove all counters which represent models that are part of the unit. Since the FAQ lets us know that attached ICs which have been RFPaaC are still part of the unit, this is exactly the same answer as above.

Your answer seems to be "remove all of one specific type of counter which are associated with the unit, ignoring other types of counter", and while I don't want to seem rude, I'm just not seeing any rules backing for that. I don't believe that fulfills the rules. You were told to remove all counters, and you haven't.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The RP rules talk about RP counters only and no mention is made of EL counters yet. This falls under Reanimation Protocols.

This is misguided. No mention is made of EL counters, but there is indeed mention of both RP counters, and counters. Then the next section explains another type of counter that is has rules referencing that previous section.

Nemesor Dave wrote:I would guess you didn't read the rules or haven't seen the page in the codex to have such an obvious question.

I would write the same, but it comes across as rude.

Nemesor Dave wrote:There may be room for debate and some ambiguity, but this is not where its at.

Then drop it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Your answer seems to be "remove all of one specific type of counter which are associated with the unit, ignoring other types of counter", and while I don't want to seem rude, I'm just not seeing any rules backing for that. I don't believe that fulfills the rules. You were told to remove all counters, and you haven't.

The rules backing for that is that EL haven't yet entered the context when "remove all counters" is brought up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:MR I did not say can mean the same. I said were exactly the same. Slight difference.

As we have shown here, wiped out can mean destroyed, but destroyed does not mean wiped out.

Destroy is the fruit, wipe out is the apple. A point ND appears to ignore

This has already been decided, but maybe you missed it.

Against destroyed meaning the exact same thing as wiped out
1. a single sentence in the rule book that only mentions wiped out which in context could mean destroyed but you claim it doesn't.
2. some rhymes about fruit that you made up

For destroyed meaning exactly the same thing as wiped out:
1. a single sentence in the rule book that only mentions wiped out but in a way that could mean destroyed.
2. a dictionary quote and common English usage (oops)
3. No contextual rule that would imply a separate condition a unit can be in
4. No description of "wiped out" as a major section in the rule book explaining a difference between the two
5. A LETTER FROM GW SAYING THEY'RE THE SAME.

Will you ever admit you're wrong?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:MR I did not say can mean the same. I said were exactly the same. Slight difference.

As we have shown here, wiped out can mean destroyed, but destroyed does not mean wiped out.

Destroy is the fruit, wipe out is the apple. A point ND appears to ignore

This has already been decided, but maybe you missed it.

Against destroyed meaning the exact same thing as wiped out
1. a single sentence in the rule book that only mentions wiped out which in context could mean destroyed but you claim it doesn't.
2. some rhymes about fruit that you made up

For destroyed meaning exactly the same thing as wiped out:
1. a single sentence in the rule book that only mentions wiped out but in a way that could mean destroyed.
2. a dictionary quote and common English usage (oops)
3. No contextual rule that would imply a separate condition a unit can be in
4. No description of "wiped out" as a major section in the rule book explaining a difference between the two
5. A LETTER FROM GW SAYING THEY'RE THE SAME.

Will you ever admit you're wrong?

You forgot in the RP rules, where destroyed is used in the same context as removing every model in a unit as a casualty.

Or destroyed is cranberries, or something.

Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Your answer seems to be "remove all of one specific type of counter which are associated with the unit, ignoring other types of counter", and while I don't want to seem rude, I'm just not seeing any rules backing for that. I don't believe that fulfills the rules. You were told to remove all counters, and you haven't.

The rules backing for that is that EL haven't yet entered the context when "remove all counters" is brought up.

That is an assumption, not a rules backing. Especially since it specifies RP counters at some points.

And that area of rules is referenced by another section that uses counters.

#5 isn't worth bringing up - and is actually against one of the tenets (but since dictionary definitions were used, it's not worth objecting to on that basis alone)

Wow... double ninjaed. Was responding to ND's post above.

kirsanth wrote:That is an assumption, not a rules backing. Especially since it specifies RP counters at some points.

And that area of rules is referenced by another section that uses counters.

I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Monster Rain wrote:I think it's a reasonable assumption.

It is. It is more reasonable to assume "all counters" means "all counters" than to assume they forgot a word just the times that it would matter for this.

Very much like Warptime.

You are told only to remove the counters from the unit. The only counters placed on the unit are the RP counters. The placement of EL counters is independent of the unit.

Monster Rain wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Your answer seems to be "remove all of one specific type of counter which are associated with the unit, ignoring other types of counter", and while I don't want to seem rude, I'm just not seeing any rules backing for that. I don't believe that fulfills the rules. You were told to remove all counters, and you haven't.

The rules backing for that is that EL haven't yet entered the context when "remove all counters" is brought up.

How so?

I'm not trying to be snippy, here. I genuinely don't understand the argument you're making. Specific types of counters don't HAVE to 'enter the context'. You have an instruction, on paper, black and white; "remove all counters". If there is a counter, associated with the unit, which you have not removed after Falling Back, you have not fulfilled that instruction.

Now, there can be exceptions made, certainly. But those exceptions need to be called out. EL does that, once; RP tells you to remove all counters when all the models in the unit are removed, and EL tells you that doesn't apply to EL counters. But that exception is not made when you're talking about the consequences of Falling Back, and since it isn't made it doesn't exist.