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Don’t want to do the math on this (a lot of variables involved), but the short range output of this squad should be pretty nasty even with the humble bolter .

20 Sacred Rose sisters with 4 ASB and 16 bolt guns.

On objective and within 12” of target (for max potential)

Defenders of the Faith strat to double shots (and bonus transhuman to stick around)
Emperor’s Judgement strat for exploding 6s to hit
War Hymn that has 6s to hit as auto wound and AP-1
Sacred Rite for additional AP-1 on 6s to wound

Either Canoness/Palatine reroll 1s or better yet Morvenn Vahl full rerolls .

That’s 32 storm bolter shots and 64 bolter shots. Lots of auto wounds on 6s as you reroll all hits that aren’t 6s to fish for more. All 6s give an additional hit plus the original that auto wounded. Rolling to wound either at AP-1 or -2 on a 6 to wound.

That’s got to leave a mark.

I’d be curious how much that would do to a T8 3+ save knight

Defenders of the Faith is not double shots. It simply lets you Rapid Fire at your full range. So all of your bolters are firing 2 shots apiece even outside of 12".

I'm debating whether to run a repentia superior with the indomitable belief trait, boosting her accompanying 10-strong repentia to a 5++ (they're one of the few units who realistically still benefit from it after AoC). Is it worth a cp, or is it a fool's errand trying to make repentia harder to kill?

I tend to find it's better on a hospitallier with the +3" range auras to maximise the units that benefit but I also play Novitiate spam.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Defenders of the Faith is not double shots. It simply lets you Rapid Fire at your full range. So all of your bolters are firing 2 shots apiece even outside of 12".

Ah, totally misread that. Oh well.

U02dah4 wrote:
I tend to find it's better on a hospitallier with the +3" range auras to maximise the units that benefit but I also play Novitiate spam.

Book is only really necessary on lists like my Zephyrim spam where you're largely after the 4++ but extending the range of the FNP is really good as well. Or if you run novitiate spam because you need to hit so many units with the 6+++.

In lists like Jesse's GT winner, Neither book or indomitable were necessary so he saved the 2CP.

Which leads into talking about the final game of that GT: The finals of the BAO was one of the ugliest games of warhammer I've ever seen. The sheer amount of exhaustion and burnout those guys were dealing with definitely fried some synapses.

The Sisters player was forgetting entire phases, the Nids player forgot an entire turn(he was convinced it was turn 4 when it was turn 5), you could see how visibly fatigued they were especially at the end.

So I want that to be the context when I mention the next bit: I can't speak for the Nids player's rules, but the SoB player used maybe 60% of his armies abilities. He forgot Word of The Emperor until his Canoness got charged turn 4, despite having no less than 3 separate occasions where it likely would have instantly won him the game. He didn't remember his exploding 6s until turn 3, he generated maybe half the miracle dice he was supposed to and completely biffed his first turn movement phase. He still won (though they almost missed 6 of his opponent's victory points because he forgot that Celestine is 3 characters.

It goes to show that 1. Even very good players make mistakes, especially when tired and 2. You can recover from mistakes you DO make if you don't just give up on it.

Speaking of mistakes, I've been reading Holy Trinity wrong this whole edition. Turns out, you don't need to SHOOT a bolt weapon, flamer weapon, and melta weapon. You just need to be EQUIPPED with them and in range. Obviously those of you who CAN read(unlike me) already know this but, Retributors are equipped with bolt Pistols so a hand flamer is all you need, even for a minimum Retributor squad.

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I tend to find it's better on a hospitallier with the +3" range auras to maximise the units that benefit but I also play Novitiate spam.

Book is only really necessary on lists like my Zephyrim spam where you're largely after the 4++ but extending the range of the FNP is really good as well. Or if you run novitiate spam because you need to hit so many units with the 6+++.

In lists like Jesse's GT winner, Neither book or indomitable were necessary so he saved the 2CP.

Which leads into talking about the final game of that GT: The finals of the BAO was one of the ugliest games of warhammer I've ever seen. The sheer amount of exhaustion and burnout those guys were dealing with definitely fried some synapses.

The Sisters player was forgetting entire phases, the Nids player forgot an entire turn(he was convinced it was turn 4 when it was turn 5), you could see how visibly fatigued they were especially at the end.

So I want that to be the context when I mention the next bit: I can't speak for the Nids player's rules, but the SoB player used maybe 60% of his armies abilities. He forgot Word of The Emperor until his Canoness got charged turn 4, despite having no less than 3 separate occasions where it likely would have instantly won him the game. He didn't remember his exploding 6s until turn 3, he generated maybe half the miracle dice he was supposed to and completely biffed his first turn movement phase. He still won (though they almost missed 6 of his opponent's victory points because he forgot that Celestine is 3 characters.

It goes to show that 1. Even very good players make mistakes, especially when tired and 2. You can recover from mistakes you DO make if you don't just give up on it.

Speaking of mistakes, I've been reading Holy Trinity wrong this whole edition. Turns out, you don't need to SHOOT a bolt weapon, flamer weapon, and melta weapon. You just need to be EQUIPPED with them and in range. Obviously those of you who CAN read already know this but, Retributors are equipped with bolt Pistols so a hand flamer is all you need, even for a minimum Retributor squad.

I actually misread that strat too, thanks for posting, makes that a bit better

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
That sounds more like your opponents miss playing because they didn't know there value. Their not much tougher than bss and a lot more expensive and hard to hide sure they hit ok but they go down quickly and are not cost effective defensively

If people are keeping footslog repentia alive long enough to make good trades, it's not that farfetched to do something vaguely similar with Zephyrim.

A unit of 10 Zephyrim with light cover and Indomitable belief are the same resilience as VH Sacresants pre-AoC (yunno, the only thing that could survive tau shooting long enough to be a decent contender?). They're by no means invincible , but played smartly they last longer than you think. All my Zephyrim squads were outside of LoS turn one and using obscuring terrain to divide the board and avoid eating more enemy fire than I had to. The times I did screw up my movement/deployment I lost entire squads, but so long as I was cagey and thinking ahead, I was able to minimize losses enough.

After that it was just taking good trades. I went down on points early in the two games I won (and the game I lost, obviously) in order to use the Zephyrim's speed with miracle dice assisted charges to take objectives in an advantageous way. My opponent always had a choice: Don't score any VP, or feed units to the incoming Zephyrim. The only misplay my opponent's had was the Ork player leaving 2 units of bikes too close together.

Now, all that said...I did end every game with at most 5-6 Zephyrim left total. They do die to counterattacks fairly easily. But that just leaves Celestine+Morven+Junith+the Retributors to mop up. 30 was definitely too many but I think 20 or so has real legs.

The issue isn't the defence everything is squishy to the volume of fire tau/aeldari can put out. The issue is unless your modelling for advantage the Zephyrim because they are up on the flying bases and have an even taller Pennant dude are near impossible to hide if your not on an ultra dense board. A lot of the repentia models by comparison are a lot lower down and easier to hide. Defence isn't an issue when you cant see them to shoot then.

The damage output also ain't great unless your buffing it

I mean 10 is 31A hitting 0.666666 wounding a primaris on 0.5 breaking through the armour save 0.66666 =6.8 wounds or 3.5 dead primaris for 175pt unit even in BR we only get to an expectancy of 11W so you might be able to kill one primaris squad before your removed from the table any more than that and your opponent's misplaying.

U02dah4 wrote:
The damage output also ain't great unless your buffing it

I mean 10 is 31A hitting 0.666666 wounding a primaris on 0.5 breaking through the armour save 0.66666 =6.8 wounds or 3.5 dead primaris for 175pt unit even in BR we only get to an expectancy of 11W so you might be able to kill one primaris squad before your removed from the table any more than that and your opponent's misplaying.

I mean sure it might fit into "buffing it" but why wouldn't you just be using the +1 to wound Zephyrim strat when it would help? It would get you 4.5 dead marines(averages 5.5 if you take the passion), and that number goes way up if they have vahl's buff. If you are bloody rose, savage twist makes them just mince primaris marines.

So the damage output is great against 1w infantry and you just need to spend some CP or use army buffs to make them good against 2w infantry.

You want to leave one Alive to wrap also I never have enough cp

Sure you could also give it rerolls of 1 in a lot of scenario's or buff from order

But just killing 10w of infantry isn't the chopping power I expect from 175pts

A lot of the time I would kill an intercessor squad and lose the Zephyrim Squad shortly after for a net loss. They need a 3 pt reduction. Doesn't mean you can't play them well their just inefficient

I mean compare their output to Crusaders same strength same ap better hit rate better inv no armour of contempt but 5+++ vs mortals and only 11pts

Sure you lose your order and 6" movement but a lot of bonus on a 6pt reduction

One thing you can do with Zephyrim is to have a 10-strong squad, give the superior the blessings of Sebastion Thor relic for 1cp (take the passion and hand of the Emperor sacred rites), and deep strike. This gives you a rerolable 8" charge, which you could use miracle dice for (bonus if you can use up two 4s).

I guess this only protects them until the first close combat, at the cost of a cp and some miracle dice, but it's a way of getting a blender squad where they need to be at full strength or close to it. Come to think of it, zephyrim are probably pretty good in Ebon Chalice, as you don't even need the relic, and you could do this with multiple squads simultaneously.

In the interest of weird assault combos, you could also do 10 death cult assassins (2 squads of 5 in a rhino) for 210 points. Bit of a risk, but you can unleash the two squads to nuke one or more enemies with a total of 40 power sword attacks, almost guaranteed to hit with 2+ rerolling.

U02dah4 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
That sounds more like your opponents miss playing because they didn't know there value. Their not much tougher than bss and a lot more expensive and hard to hide sure they hit ok but they go down quickly and are not cost effective defensively

If people are keeping footslog repentia alive long enough to make good trades, it's not that farfetched to do something vaguely similar with Zephyrim.

A unit of 10 Zephyrim with light cover and Indomitable belief are the same resilience as VH Sacresants pre-AoC (yunno, the only thing that could survive tau shooting long enough to be a decent contender?). They're by no means invincible , but played smartly they last longer than you think. All my Zephyrim squads were outside of LoS turn one and using obscuring terrain to divide the board and avoid eating more enemy fire than I had to. The times I did screw up my movement/deployment I lost entire squads, but so long as I was cagey and thinking ahead, I was able to minimize losses enough.

After that it was just taking good trades. I went down on points early in the two games I won (and the game I lost, obviously) in order to use the Zephyrim's speed with miracle dice assisted charges to take objectives in an advantageous way. My opponent always had a choice: Don't score any VP, or feed units to the incoming Zephyrim. The only misplay my opponent's had was the Ork player leaving 2 units of bikes too close together.

Now, all that said...I did end every game with at most 5-6 Zephyrim left total. They do die to counterattacks fairly easily. But that just leaves Celestine+Morven+Junith+the Retributors to mop up. 30 was definitely too many but I think 20 or so has real legs.

The issue isn't the defence everything is squishy to the volume of fire tau/aeldari can put out. The issue is unless your modelling for advantage the Zephyrim because they are up on the flying bases and have an even taller Pennant dude are near impossible to hide if your not on an ultra dense board. A lot of the repentia models by comparison are a lot lower down and easier to hide. Defence isn't an issue when you cant see them to shoot then.

The damage output also ain't great unless your buffing it

I mean 10 is 31A hitting 0.666666 wounding a primaris on 0.5 breaking through the armour save 0.66666 =6.8 wounds or 3.5 dead primaris for 175pt unit even in BR we only get to an expectancy of 11W so you might be able to kill one primaris squad before your removed from the table any more than that and your opponent's misplaying.

In my last tournament, two units of Zephyrim each picked up a 10 man unit of Ork Warbikers with 5++ invuls. OoML, not BR. That's 60 wounds against T5, 5++.

Saying 'they don't really kill anything unless you buff them' is very silly when taking 20-30 means you're absolutely buffing them all the time and likely have tons of buffs to give them. They ALSO have the benefit bypassing -1 damage abilities that really screw up Repentia.

They are not free win stat-sticks. You have to leverage them correctly. You have to keep track of your buffs, your auras, charge ranges, pile-in consolidate, LoS, cover, etc. But if you DO, they have the speed and output to take highly efficient trades while securing objectives your opponent might have otherwise considered safe.

If you're only taking 5-10 they do fine as mid-level chaff clearing. If you're investing enough in them for it to be worth taking 20+, then their extremely high base attack count makes them ideal buff targets.

Comparing them to Crusaders is silly. Crusaders only have 1 attack. They START at less than 40% of a Zephyrims output while also being slow and limited to a tiny unit size. That's why they're action slaves and nothing else.

A Zephyrim is eventually super deadly, a Crusader never successfully kills and intercessor. If you drop Zephyrim by 3ppm, Sisters are instantly the best army in the game. The same crap I was doing only I have 90 more points for objective grabbers and could even potentially give up some wombo for more consistency...brah.

Crusaders have 2A each not 1 and Zealot

16 Crusaders are 176pts

10 Zephyrim with Banner is 175pts

16 Crusaders 32A with Zealot is 28.4 hits

10 Zephyrim 31A without Zealot Is 20.7 hits

Strength and ap are identical

Crusaders start 37% up and are a lot better defensively

I just don't see it I'm not saying Crusaders are the answer but they are good point for damage comparison without all the buffing and as you said their not good enough as damage dealers.

By the time you invest the resource to make zephyrim work and by that I mean medium's deadly they are even more inefficient and your almost always trading down.

Comparatively repentia will usually be trading up with the same investment

U02dah4 wrote:
Crusaders have 2A each not 1 and Zealot

16 Crusaders are 176pts

10 Zephyrim with Banner is 175pts

16 Crusaders 32A with Zealot is 28.4 hits

10 Zephyrim 31A without Zealot Is 20.7 hits

Strength and ap are identical

Crusaders start 37% up and are a lot better defensively

I just don't see it I'm not saying Crusaders are the answer but they are good point for damage comparison without all the buffing and as you said their not good enough as damage dealers.

By the time you invest the resource to make zephyrim work and by that I mean medium's deadly they are even more inefficient and your almost always trading down.

Comparatively repentia will usually be trading up with the same investment

If you want to see a good comparison to Crusaders, let's look at Novitiates. Worse save, worse invul, same strength but no AP to speak of, only 1 more attack, worse weapon skill, only 3.5ppm cheaper.

31 attacks at WS4+ is only 2.58 damage to a MEQ target compared to 4.16 from the same points value of crusaders. Not on the charge it's only 21 for 1.75.

That's nearly double(or more than double) the amount of wounds. So by the same logic, Novitiates are bad compared to Crusaders and by the time you put in the resources to make them not bounce off of anything with better than a 6+ save, they're even more inefficient and almost always trading down. Add in the BSS tax and realistically you're looking at 80+55=135pts of Novitiates that do less damage than 77pts of Crusaders.

"Oh but Novitiates do X thing!" Oh do they now?

Novitatiates are not a good comparison precisely because you butchered it which is embarrassing with a straw man

A unit of novitiates with banner and a unit of bss as its mandatory make 135pts 4+

5 s3 ap0 on the charge
3 s3 ap0 if not on the charge
31 s4 ap 0 on the charge
23 s4 ap 0

12 Crusaders make 132pts

Outputting 24A s4 AP3 Zealot 3+

Melee Offensively yes Crusaders are better

But the novitiates and bss have 6 Bolt guns and 9 autopistols so also put out some range

Novitiates also have built in reroll advance and charge and obsec

Defensively it's also more complex

3+ 4++ 5++ vs mortals wounds 12 w

Vs 6w 3+ 5++ ignoring an ap and 9 w 4+ 5++ ignoreing an ap

Your probably not spending cp to buff either though you can. Your also not likely to invest points in buffing either although you might do so incidentally.



In minoris +1 to hit or BR +1A are a 25% increase in output so in those orders factoring in guns 0.66 meq they are approximately equivalent output in VH the Crusaders output is higher

Defensively it's also equivalent vs ap 0,1 novitiates are better vs ap2+ or bomb type weapons Crusaders are better

Utility wise obsec +rerolls to advance and charge + Keyword is definitely in novitiates favour

and in a mandatory slot with bss as the alternative Crusaders arnt a legal option

Really this an apples and oranges comparison and that's why it takes so long and why it is a stupid one



Crusaders make a good comparison to zephyrim precisely because the s is the same, the ap is the same their both 3+ sv and they both get a small defensive buff compared to the other. Your paying 6pts a model more for equivalent defence (on a model basis making crusaders 33% better due to lowers ppm) but gaining + 6" of movement ds and a keyword and assuming your in a melee order you end up equivalent combat output wise.

You have to buff them to make them better and that takes CP which you have better uses for (repentia, paragon warsuits, domminion squad) or keeping them near your Characters which negates their movement and ds advantage

Either way it makes them inefficient

The Zephyrim profit from order conviction and sacred rites, have higher mobility and access to deepstrike, can assault units on higher floors/ in woods easily thanks to fly, have access to MD and more stratagems and are way faster - in every cc oriented order, they are superior to crusaders. The only use for crusader in my opinion is a cheap minsize unit for objective holding out of LOS...

Absolutely although that atleast gives crusaders an efficient use.i can't think of any for zephyrim.

I'm not saying Crusaders are brilliant but none of those things get over the fact that with the order Conviction zephyrim output the same damage only are defensively worse and the Crusaders are not good enough to make you want to field them in combat so neither are the Zephyrim

Zephyrim might as well not have miracle dice because if I'm miracle diceing a charge its repentia or paragons miracle diceing their charge means I'm not miracle diceing the unit that needs it and is more efficient. While miracle diceing one power sword attack is pointless. So DS chargeing is very unreliable even at 8" your gonna get blown of the table doing nothing 1 out of 3 games. Sure their speed does give them more flexibility in where they can be used but it doesn't make them efficient at that role and due to there height a main boarded unit is still vulnerable.

Which is the problem there not terrible just not efficient and having to stack buffs to get them remotely functioning just ups the opportunity costs.

Officially announced cp reductions inbound 6(+1 per player turn) but with you having to pay for wl and relic so quite a big reduction.

but we will be able to multi faction secondary

The rumor is that the faction secondaries are also updated. I'm curious what they'll make out of ours. My preferred order is ebon chalice and I actually don't mind the CP reduction too much. Terrible knowledge is still an auto take and the rest is optional anyway.

Us3Less wrote:
The rumor is that the faction secondaries are also updated. I'm curious what they'll make out of ours. My preferred order is ebon chalice and I actually don't mind the CP reduction too much. Terrible knowledge is still an auto take and the rest is optional anyway.

You can pretty much write Leap of Faith and Sacred Ground on all your lists now. Defend the Shrine is also really good but EbonChalice bringing way more flamers than other SoB lists means that you might have good luck with Slay the Heretic against MSU armies now.

What Minoris Convictions do people favour?

+1 to hit on the charge charge and heroic intervention

Your girls can't be wounded on a 1 or a 2.

These are brilliant for infantry spam with the +1 to hit being as good as +1a on 4+ ws units and the other giving your girls more survivability vs s6+ A really common on melee units.

The alternative is the free reroll but that only significantly benefits melta spam.

Any thoughts on how we made out with Chapter Approved? Or are we waiting for points changes to be confirmed before we make that call?

I also agree that Zephyrim don't seem that good at first glance. They are fast, but only being S4 hurts them.

They may be only S4, but they have a lot of attacks (especially as BR) and have a strat that isn't Order-locked for +1 to wound. They can, and do, punch above their weight.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
They may be only S4, but they have a lot of attacks (especially as BR) and have a strat that isn't Order-locked for +1 to wound. They can, and do, punch above their weight.

That's 2CP though. It's a lot just to boost them to a decent level.
Especially now CP is more limited.

Yes first big change CP is more limited

6 CP pre +1 per turn except on certain missions where you may not get it T1 as you need to hold a neutral objective and you have to pay for all your relic warlord traits.

in reality this means -6 pregame -5 BR1 -4 BR -3 BR3 -2BR4 -1 BR1 (2 less than this if you take a relic and warlord trait and less if you need the neutral objective)

Outcome detatchment's like vanguard just seem impossible to justify and second patrols also seem impossible to justify

So in reality your looking at Battalion or Brigade

Second out come is that some units effectively have built in CP tax - do you really want Vahl without her WL trait. Now its not enough to stop you from using her but it does mean your pregame pool is smaller than 6. Now you are almost always taking leap of faith so you need beacon of faith so if you do both of those your starting at 4. Other warlord traits and relics seem a little costly I could still justify indomitable belief and book of saint lucius in some lists but that would now leave you with 2. Relics like the chaplet and iron surplus of saint istella probably have to kick the bucket.

Next problem reserves. Previously I was happy to pay 2 cp to reserve a portion of my army problem is with the new rules that mean's i'm starting with 0CP. So the amount we reserve might have to drop. Maybe entirely.

So assuming you blow your above CP or most of it you have 1-2 CP per turn

Inefficient units such as Zephyrim just wont cut the mustard you can't justify the CP to make them function. Now more than ever you will need to plan your cp. Double firing seraphim Is another drop because it isn't impactfull enough

Really the focus needs to be predominantly on units that don't need cp and are still efficient

Mission wise we have a massive boost and will likely mostly be running faction-specific secondaries

Leap is still broken

Defend the shrine is buffed in that you choose it and nerfed in that you don't score it at end game still 15 able.

Sacred grounds and slay the heretic both got buffed and are probably doable in the right build but I would side with Sacred grounds as being super strong on any mission with 5 neutral objectives or 4 neutral objectives and 6 total

Even with 3 neutrals 13 pts should often be acheivable (assuming you do all objectives except their deployment zone) and it could easily be your best choice

We also know some enemies will be hit harder especially ones that need multi detatchments but that's a more complex discussion soup however got murdered.

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes first big change CP is more limited

6 CP pre +1 per turn except on certain missions where you may not get it T1 as you need to hold a neutral objective and you have to pay for all your relic warlord traits.

in reality this means -6 pregame -5 BR1 -4 BR -3 BR3 -2BR4 -1 BR1 (2 less than this if you take a relic and warlord trait and less if you need the neutral objective)

Outcome detatchment's like vanguard just seem impossible to justify and second patrols also seem impossible to justify

So in reality your looking at Battalion or Brigade

Second out come is that some units effectively have built in CP tax - do you really want Vahl without her WL trait. Now its not enough to stop you from using her but it does mean your pregame pool is smaller than 6. Now you are almost always taking leap of faith so you need beacon of faith so if you do both of those your starting at 4. Other warlord traits and relics seem a little costly I could still justify indomitable belief and book of saint lucius in some lists but that would now leave you with 2. Relics like the chaplet and iron surplus of saint istella probably have to kick the bucket.

Next problem reserves. Previously I was happy to pay 2 cp to reserve a portion of my army problem is with the new rules that mean's i'm starting with 0CP. So the amount we reserve might have to drop. Maybe entirely.

So assuming you blow your above CP or most of it you have 1-2 CP per turn

Inefficient units such as Zephyrim just wont cut the mustard you can't justify the CP to make them function. Now more than ever you will need to plan your cp. Double firing seraphim Is another drop because it isn't impactfull enough

Really the focus needs to be predominantly on units that don't need cp and are still efficient

Mission wise we have a massive boost and will likely mostly be running faction-specific secondaries

Leap is still broken

Defend the shrine is buffed in that you choose it and nerfed in that you don't score it at end game still 15 able.

Sacred grounds and slay the heretic both got buffed and are probably doable in the right build but I would side with Sacred grounds as being super strong on any mission with 5 neutral objectives or 4 neutral objectives and 6 total

Even with 3 neutrals 13 pts should often be acheivable (assuming you do all objectives except their deployment zone) and it could easily be your best choice

We also know some enemies will be hit harder especially ones that need multi detatchments but that's a more complex discussion soup however got murdered.

There were 0 competitive sisters lists not already using battalion/brigade, so that's not a huge change.

Vahl doesn't lose much without her warlord trait. It was overkill against a lot of targets and she can still buff herself if you absolutely need her to kill something; but you bring Vahl for her buffs, not for the mediocre beatstick.

You don't need beacon to get leap, especially if you have 1-2 repentia units. If the game goes to 5 turns, you have a chance for 25 leap points. If you're not generating enough MD to get half that without a crutch like beacon, you should probably consider bringing units that can kill things. Even if you can't (and let's be clear, if you can't it's on you) score leap without beacon, you're probably better off spending 80pts on a battle sanctum that at least provides Obscuring. Beacon of Faith is completely worthless outside of just feeding one dice to leap. With how much the value of CP has gone up, Spending 80pts on obscuring and meaningful miracle dice, is likely just flat out better than spending 1CP on generating a miracle dice for your warlord's advance roll.

Reserves are a harder choice. I generally only spent 1CP on it, I might start taking 4 girl repentia squads alongside the MM Rets I usually reserve. Both will fit into 1CP and the repentia are generally good to kill one unit and generate a miracle dice.

Combining Leap being our best secondary and the rumored points drops, Novitiates are pretty much dead. They already had dubious utility as 'stand on an objective and hope you're up against a slow t3 army'. Now, unless you want to handicap yourself by wasting a CP on a garbage WT like beacon, you need units that are going to kill things. Novitiates can't handle anything tougher than a battle sister without spending 3 CP on Tear them Down, Holy Rage, and Savage twist, so they are out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
They may be only S4, but they have a lot of attacks (especially as BR) and have a strat that isn't Order-locked for +1 to wound. They can, and do, punch above their weight.

That's 2CP though. It's a lot just to boost them to a decent level.
Especially now CP is more limited.

They still do better than garbage units like Novitiates. Plus, you can't beat the utility of a 12" move unit that clears chaff extremely well.

There's a reason 90% of competitive sisters list take 2 units of Zephyrim and less than 50% take even 1 unit of novitiates.

It's funny because I don't see that reflected in the Scottish meta. Especially the Zephyrim. Sure you might take a winning list copy and paste but the lists function differently. Yours was too cp reliant and I feel its gotten weaker as a result infantry spam seems stronger especially in the secondary any thought of needing an IQ has gone

Novitates are not a garbage unit and with the change in missions so your not limited to one faction secondary board control probably matters more than ever. I need to kill some things I don't need to kill everything and prior the only games I was losing were nids and I'm betting nids get a big points nerf....they are not a kill unit though they can certainly hit chaff

As to vahl buff it is often better on a supporting unit her wl is probably worth the cp so both can fight

I disagree on leap yes you can sometimes max it without I have maxed it every game with and that securityis worth it.
I also want the MD because you can use it on miraculous abilities and t1 I normally want a shield up.

Reserves wise I was doing a paragon and a dominion with some change depending on my op

I'm now wondering if an Inquisitor with the esoteric lore WT (CP regen - 5+ per opponent strat) could be a play. Trouble is, it already costs a cp to bring it in with the trait, so at best you'll gain a cp each battle round for a net of +4. I think that's fairly unrealistic though, as he'd have to survive the whole game and be lucky enough to get a 5+ roll in each round. Maybe a net gain of 2cp is more realistic, in which case it might not be worth it.

Probably I'd bring it with the castigation psychic power for a targeted 'smite'. Might all be a bit niche for 60-70 points. Thoughts?